Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[ematrix]

I appologize to all for intruding on your discusion, I sympathize with you all, regardless if you preffer the unaltered original trilogy, or the special editions.
I think the problem is that George Lucas, in his alleged pursuit to restore and perfect the films, tends to overdue stuff that would have been better left alone, while other stuff is fixed but only half way, and in the mean time, he leaves everybody unsatisfied.

Bare with me for a moment, but let's exemplify with the pivotal scene "Han shoots Greedo first", if he had left the scene alone, probally the acceptance for the special editions would have been greater than it is today. Having Greedo shooting first simply doesn't work, Greedo is a bountyhunter, sitting less than 5 feet from Han, and he misses! It's as ludicrous as missing a field goal from the 10 yard line!

Not only that, but it diminish the change of heart of a egocentric mercenary that doesn't hesitate shooting someone (who wasn't a good guy to begin with) to someone how cares for his friends and fights for a just cause, which IMO has more merit. But GL stubbornness doesn't allow him to realize that no matter how much he attempts to modify that scene, it will never look right, simply because it was filmed to play differently.

IMHO if GL wants to remove matte lines, pulish outdates FX, add creatures in the background, etc. I think nobody would disagree with that, even I don't mind Jabba's scene in ANH. But the problem is that he only goes half way in fixing everything. Per example, he put a lot of efford in removing matte lines from the Rancor in ROTJ, but he kept the matte lines surrounding spaceships in space (which probally would be easier to remove)

GL should listen to his own words "Do or do not, there is no try". If GL should say "matte lines are part of the films history" then he shouldn't have done the special editions in the first place. But he wants to "modernize" the films, at least go all the way and do a fine job doing it, and not half attemps with unsatisfying results.

And that's the biggest problem of all, in the past years George Lucas has been releasing half baked subpar editions, the 2004 transfers were bad, wrong color timing, gamma, etc., the 2006 DVDs were a joke, and even so he had seven full years to fix all this, if he only rehashed those transfers for the upcoming Blu-rays, it wont matter if the films are in 1080p, they would still be bad and unsatisfying, and I also hope that online reviewers will be objective to point it out.

I know everybody is talking, in case the worst is confirmed, about demanding a recall, or simply not buying the Blu-ray sets in protest. It all sounds great, but how about protesting to the man itself? I mean, emails, campaigns, online protesting, demanding recalls, all sound good, but probally this time it may require an extra efford, something that FOX and GL himself can't ignore, probally something like a Jericho nuts campaign.

[Jacobss]

On earlier pages there was a discussion if Library of Congress got the ESB Special Edition or the Original version. Well, here is the answer:

emailed the Library of Congress our question and got this response:

Hello Greg Flowers

We have the original versions of STAR WARS and THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK on 35mm film; they were received as copyright deposits. These films are positive prints, not original negatives. In addition, the film prints are deemed limited access due to their rarity. The laser disc for EMPIRE STRIKES BACKS is also a copy of the original version.

STAR WARS (1977)
LC CALL NUMBER: CQA 2055-2060 (print copy 1); FGD 5534-5539 (print copy 2; English subtitles for hearing impaired)

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (1980)
LC CALL NUMBER: CQA 2251-2256 (print); DAA 1839 (laserdisc)

It is believed that the original negatives for both films no longer exist. The following article may be of interest to you:

Saving Star Wars: The Special Edition Restoration Process and its Changing Physicality
Web site: <http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html>

I hope this information is helpful.

Sincerely,

Josie Walters-Johnston
Reference Librarian
Moving Image Section
Library of Congress
jwal@loc.gov

Source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...243512&page=85

Personally, I have no problem with changes to the movies. What I can't stand is, that Lucas was lying for many years that the prints for original SW movies doesn't exist anymore. We know today, that is isn't truth. Also, what bothers me that he didn't release the OUT in good quality and his job on SE was very bad. Some things got fixed, some not, some got screwed up. For example lightsabres - in 1977 there were much better than on 2004 DVD. That says all about the transfers. I would love the have OUT trilogy and SE OT but FIXED, not screwed up.

Even Spielberg said that couldn't convince Lucas to release the OUT. He said that in a recent interview.

Steven Spielberg: Oh, I know. I totally understand that. (In the future) there’s going to be no more digital enhancements or digital additions to anything based on any film I direct. I’m not going to do any corrections digitally to even wires that show.

If 1941 comes on Blu-Ray I’m not going to go back and take the wires out because the Blu-Ray will bring the wires out that are guiding the airplane down Hollywood Blvd. At this point right now I think letting movies exist in the era, with all the flaws and all of the flourishes, is a wonderful way to mark time and mark history.

Quint: I’m in total agreement with you. I wish you could talk George (Lucas) into doing the same thing!

Steven Spielberg: Well, I can’t!

Also, there some nice quote from James Cameron about Lucas changing the movies:

I'm not into revision. I think every film should be executed exactly as it was executed at the moment. I actually don't believe ... like when George went back and put new creatures into the original 'Star Wars.' I find that disturbing. It's a revision of history. That bothers me.

So, a question to Lucas defenders: When even two big directors like Spielberg or Cameron admit or complain about what Lucas has done, maybe it's time to accept, that complaining about not releasing the OUT is something more than "Lucas bashing by haters"?

[iamsometal]

Originally Posted by DrrnHarr

The one resounding point of the phone conversation is that there will never be a restoration of the Theatrical Cuts because the best even LucasFilm has is the LaserDisc editions - the film itself - does not exist. Lucasfilm has systematically erased any trace of it.

Which is a shame since I continue to believe that Han shot first.

That is absolutely heartbreaking. To think LucasFilm would erase all traces of the original prints is just staggering and frustrating. What I wish would be released is an "Ultimate Collection" a la Blade Runner. I want the OT in HD, but I also want the Special Editions. It's maddening to think it won't happen until Lucas has passed away and someone finds a hidden batch of prints of the OT that LucasFilm couldn't find and destroy or Fox somehow works out a deal with the Library of Congress to remaster those Positive 35mm prints (which of course won't happen until Lucas is dead).

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Jacobss

So, a question to Lucas defenders: When even two big directors like Spielberg or Cameron admit or complain about what Lucas has done, maybe it's time to accept, that complaining about not releasing the OUT is something more than "Lucas bashing by haters"?

Well the major difference is that both Spielberg & Cameron said it once in a interview explaining that as directors they have a different opinion then Lucas regarding making changes to movies. That is not Lucas bashing, it's explaining a point of view in a interview, once...note here once

Lucas bashing is coming in this thread repeating the samething over and over and over and over again....

I think you can see the difference?

[Chordata]

As if this hasn't already been beated to death in the 864 pages of this thread, but...

I have no problem with the fact that a director can make changes after a film is released; I just don't necessarily like all the changes made by Lucas to ANH and ROTJ. My biggest dislikes are character- or story-changing changes. On top of that, I miss the "yub yub" song.

I love Star Wars, but I don't love it so much that I blindly accept everything as being flawless.

[Coov]

Originally Posted by Boone_Carlyle

I just found out about another change being made to the phantom menace. Hayden Christensen's head will be superimposed on Jake Lloyd's body.

I don't know your sources, but I heard differently. Since Jake is older they imposed him on Hayden.

Update: Saw the clip myself. It was AWESOME!!! Went something like this...

PALPATINE: Good. Good. The Force is strong with you. A powerful Sith you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth . . . Vader.

ANAKIN: YIPPEE!!!

[Vashetti]

Originally Posted by Coov

I don't know your sources, but I heard differently. Since Jake is older they imposed him on Hayden.

Update: Saw the clip myself. It was AWESOME!!! Went something like this...

PALPATINE: Good. Good. The Force is strong with you. A powerful Sith you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth . . . Vader.

ANAKIN: YIPPEE!!!

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Well the major difference is that both Spielberg & Cameron said it once in a interview explaining that as directors they have a different opinion then Lucas regarding making changes to movies. That is not Lucas bashing, it's explaining a point of view in a interview, once...note here once

Lucas bashing is coming in this thread repeating the samething over and over and over and over again....

I think you can see the difference?

Don't forget that Peter Jackson also said it......

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Don't forget that Peter Jackson also said it......

As he said it over and over and over and over and over............

You know like certain people

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

As he said it over and over and over and over and over............

You know like certain people

I have a question: What is the difference of saying "I can't stand Lucas for what he did to the films" vs "Love Lucas for what he has done, I wish he would even change more of the outdated films"

Now we also hear the latter over and over and over as well. So if you are going to complain about or ding the people that see it one way........

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Well the major difference is that both Spielberg & Cameron said it once in a interview explaining that as directors they have a different opinion then Lucas regarding making changes to movies. That is not Lucas bashing, it's explaining a point of view in a interview, once...note here once

Lucas bashing is coming in this thread repeating the samething over and over and over and over again....

I think you can see the difference?

Cameron feels that movies are a "product of their time" and this is why he has no interest in messing with any of the Terminator films(for example). The 1st Terminator does have some effects issues but they'll stay that way as far as James is concerned. All good with me.

Im actually OK with effects touch ups and things like that. As Ive said before, the effects clean up that was done in A New Hope for the Battle of Yavin scene really make it a lot better. No arguments there!

IMO, effects clean ups = GREAT. Scene changes/character edits = BAD

There is a difference - and they can clean up old effects all they want, IMO.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Jacobss

On earlier pages there was a discussion if Library of Congress got the ESB Special Edition or the Original version. Well, here is the answer:



Source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...243512&page=85

Hey, mad Kudos to you for going out and contacting the library of Congress and getting actual solid info on what verisions they have. Very interesting and its nice to actually have that confirmed. Well done sir! Big thumbs up!

Anyway, I am sorta interested in seeing what other details pop up about the bonus discs in the next month or so. I mean, we are getting close and I have to admit I had NO IDEA they actually filmed that bunker raid in Jedi. Sorta big nerd 'Wow' moment for me.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Don't forget that Peter Jackson also said it......

The same Peter Jackson who everyone was screaming about tweaking the color to Fellowship Of The Rings?

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

I have a question: What is the difference of saying "I can't stand Lucas for what he did to the films" vs "Love Lucas for what he has done, I wish he would even change more of the outdated films"

Now we also hear the latter over and over and over as well. So if you are going to complain about or ding the people that see it one way........

You must have miss my post (it's probably buried under tons of useless discussion about how much a lightsaber should be heavy )

You may well notice I do not post much in here, I find the discussion close to funny and most time in need of serious therapy at other times.

I enjoy Star Wars, always have since I was 9 years old back in June of 1977 when I first saw it and I suspect will always do. I enjoy the movies, I read the books, I read to comics, I collect the toys, I watch each movies about 5 times every year. So you can call me a pretty serious fan of Star Wars. However I never once believe any of these movies are a sign form God as a lot of people make it sound like All 6 movies are childish, cheesie, with bad dialogue, horrible acting...but I love them and I always will. For me the arguments going on here are mostly funny, one side trying to convince the other side how wrong they are. Both side so convince they are right that I sometimes wonder if I am in a religious forum

I may sound like I am defending the other side but I am not. The last few post are about pointing out the difference in how 2 (okay 3 since we can include Peter Jackson) saying that they disagre with Lucas point of view once in an interview and coming into a forum and posting the same thing over and over again and prentending it's not Lucas bashing.

Jackson, Cameron, Spielberg, you and anyone else saying once "you know I disagre with Lucas, I believe movies should not be corrected because of age, they are part of history and should remain as they are" is stating an opinion.

Saying in every other post "Lucas and those that follow him are nothing but mindless bots, he just want cash, he does not care for anything, he is a childhood rapist......" and so on his bashing.

I hope you can see the difference in that? If not, oh well! It's the Internet afterall

[whaleman]

Originally Posted by Coov

I don't know your sources, but I heard differently. Since Jake is older they imposed him on Hayden.

Update: Saw the clip myself. It was AWESOME!!! Went something like this...

PALPATINE: Good. Good. The Force is strong with you. A powerful Sith you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth . . . Vader.

ANAKIN: YIPPEE!!!

I like it

[whaleman]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Cameron feels that movies are a "product of their time" and this is why he has no interest in messing with any of the Terminator films(for example). The 1st Terminator does have some effects issues but they'll stay that way as far as James is concerned. All good with me.

If they ever fix up the choppy stop-motion animation of the Terminator in the original it will be a sad day for me. By the way T1>T2, sorry had to sneak that one in there again.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Jacobss

What I can't stand is, that Lucas was lying for many years that the prints for original SW movies doesn't exist anymore. We know today, that is isn't truth.

How? On that mail, it's even said that the original negatives are believed to be lost.

Originally Posted by Jacobss

For example lightsabres - in 1977 there were much better than on 2004 DVD. That says all about the transfers.

That's not true. If there is a movie where the sabers are better than the original, it's in ANH.

Originally Posted by Jacobss

So, a question to Lucas defenders: When even two big directors like Spielberg or Cameron admit or complain about what Lucas has done, maybe it's time to accept, that complaining about not releasing the OUT is something more than "Lucas bashing by haters"

Those two directors (big or not, is irrelevant) gave their opinion, which are not any more important or valid than Lucas. You can agree with them or not. No need to use fallacies here.

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

You must have miss my post (it's probably buried under tons of useless discussion about how much a lightsaber should be heavy )

You may well notice I do not post much in here, I find the discussion close to funny and most time in need of serious therapy at other times.

I enjoy Star Wars, always have since I was 9 years old back in June of 1977 when I first saw it and I suspect will always do. I enjoy the movies, I read the books, I read to comics, I collect the toys, I watch each movies about 5 times every year. So you can call me a pretty serious fan of Star Wars. However I never once believe any of these movies are a sign form God as a lot of people make it sound like All 6 movies are childish, cheesie, with bad dialogue, horrible acting...but I love them and I always will. For me the arguments going on here are mostly funny, one side trying to convince the other side how wrong they are. Both side so convince they are right that I sometimes wonder if I am in a religious forum

I may sound like I am defending the other side but I am not. The last few post are about pointing out the difference in how 2 (okay 3 since we can include Peter Jackson) saying that they disagre with Lucas point of view once in an interview and coming into a forum and posting the same thing over and over again and prentending it's not Lucas bashing.

Jackson, Cameron, Spielberg, you and anyone else saying once "you know I disagre with Lucas, I believe movies should not be corrected because of age, they are part of history and should remain as they are" is stating an opinion.

Saying in every other post "Lucas and those that follow him are nothing but mindless bots, he just want cash, he does not care for anything, he is a childhood rapist......" and so on his bashing.

I hope you can see the difference in that? If not, oh well! It's the Internet afterall

The voice of reason.

[Beast]

Spielberg doesn't have much room to comment himself.

Given he didn't change ET for artistic reasons originally. But reactionary over the "Terrorist" line.

I'm not even talking about the later SE version. But the one from long before that.

[Strevlac]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

No it isn't. The Library Of Congress doesn't have the original 1940 roadshow version of Fantasia, because it hadn't been re-assembled yet. They have the 1990 restoration in their vaults. The LOC doesn't have the new Lowry passes on Pinocchio, Snow White and Bambi, either, or the restored versions of the True-Life Adventures...they have what was available at the time when they were added to the Film Registry.

And thank goodness for that.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Strevlac

And thank goodness for that.

Why? What's wrong with those?