Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

They were never clones back then....the clone wars was not explained for 20 years. All we heard was Obi Wan throwing out the phrase "The Clone Wars". As far was we knew Stormtroopers were just regular people. But then the whole idea of the "force" has changed as well since the advent of the PT.

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Were Storm Troopers ever called Clones in the OT? I have a feeling that's another thing that was ret-conned in by the PT.

No, they were never called clones in 4-6 ... the concept of clones was played around with but didn´t end up on screen. The Prequels sort of further explained where the Troopers came from. If you see the movies in context now it becomes clear that they are in fact clones.... just like Boba Fett.

The concept of the force has not changed either. Some aspects of the Force were explained a little more.
Some people just didn´t understand it what led to a belief that something has been changed.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

But then the whole idea of the "force" has changed as well since the advent of the PT.

It was not! Don't repeat the same wrong thing over and over again! That doesn't make it more true! The force is exactly the same in all Episodes - since the Prequel-Trilogy we just have more information how people can use it. Star Wars was never purely "magic" as in LotR or Harry Potter - it was always fairy tale / myth rooted in science!

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

They ARE cohesive. That's the beauty of the story-structure. The first three Episodes mostly take place in civilized cities with high culture and history because the main-characters live in that arena. The final three Episodes take place mostly on Battleships, Spacecrafts, scarce bunkers and remote unpopulatet planets because the main characters are on the run, in the trenches or in hiding. That's one of the reasons why Lucas had to wait such a long time so he could pull off the Prequels convincingly - and he suceeded! He achieved that the richer, more layered and complex look of the Prequels and the simpler, used look of OT is rootet in the very heart of the story.

So now you are implying that Lucas waited 20 years on purpose to film these? Really? Are you really going to stick to that story? Lucas had no intentions of ever going back to these films until around 1993/94 and to suggest otherwise is just an out and out fabrication. As he said in 1989 he was done with Star Wars! Never going back again! Why do you see this as some Lucas grand master plan? They guy has been flying by the seat of his pants all through the 90's and throwing things together for the PT.

What I find really laughable is that there are those that think Lucas has done nothing wrong with regards to these films or the the home video releases through the years. It's like he is some kind of film god and everything is by some masterplan that Lucas created back in 1973. So I guess you are ok with him using 2004 masters for the HD release? Oh wait, nevermind it was his plan all along to use a new master for the 3D releases.....sigh.

It was never rooted in science only myth....you must be thinking of Star Trek.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

It was not! Don't repeat the same wrong thing over and over again! That doesn't make it more true! The force is exactly the same in all Episodes - since the Prequel-Trilogy we just have more information how people can use it. Star Wars was never purely "magic" as in LotR or Harry Potter - it was always fairy tale / myth rooted in science!

"Always"? What's the first recorded instance of the Force being explained as rooted in science? I am going to guess that it was A Phantom Menace, in 1998.

That's why it sounds like ret-con, to me.

In my humble opinion...

[Merlinpants]

You guys need to look at it in relation to real world events.

In the PT, money was abundant, trade was free and galaxies prosper. People have time to invest in new technology and build new ships etc.

Once a dictatorship is introduced, war begins, countries are overthrown, technology ceases to be pushed forward and individuals no longer support the regime, thus technology no longer moves forward.

In the OT, the vehicles you refer to as looking old are the rebellion vehicles. This is a small band of rebels, cobbling together what few resources they have to wage war against an enourmous empire. Money for repairs and upgardes are scarce, they make do. The empire builds collosal star destroyers, Death Stars etc. The shiny ships in the PT are a thing of the past and serve no purpose.

Tatooine farmers are forced to pay huge sums to the Empire in order to have the Imperial protection. They no longer have the money to build pod racers, or the will or means to race them. It all becomes black market, under the control of a few (the Hutts). Landspeeders are cheap and tatty as that is all they can afford, and all that is available.

Clone troopers - well in the PT, it is the only way to get an army together in a short period of time. What you tend to forget is in the OT, in fact A New Hope, people are recruited and join the Empire through the Imperial Academy. The clones no longer make up the army, but normal people either enslaved or recruited into the Imperial Army make up the majority of Stormtroopers, hence no more 'Jango' voice from the stormtroopers. People will always support a dictatorship and will want to be part of it. The clones served a purpose but are no longer required to make up the numbers.

It all makes perfect sense, you just are having trouble separating it. Take examples form the real world and see how dictatorships and oppression of the masses leads to a lack of technological evolution, the will to create and the need to move forward supporting something you are forced to be a party to.

The PT was always going to have 'clean' ships and better looking craft due to the money and resources available. Once war began and the Empire took over, all the money went to military ends and the fight against the rebellion. The rebels made do with what they could get.

All conjecture and theory, but makes perfect sense to me.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Lucas had no intentions of ever going back to these films until around 1993/94 and to suggest otherwise is just an out and out fabrication.

Why? Because you say so? Is your opinion a fact (or more valid than others)?

[Merlinpants]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

So now you are implying that Lucas waited 20 years on purpose to film these?

It is well documented that he wanted to create a much bigger scope for the prequels, and until he saw what ILM had done on Jurassic Park, knew it was not possible. Once the digital technology was available, the production on the prequels began. It was a case of movie making FX catching up to his vision.

Don't think I am a Lucas lover, as I am not. I love the UOT and wish it could be brought back to the way it was when I saw it in the 70/80's. I do however also appreciate the overall story that 1-6 create, and enjoy them for what they are, movies. No movie is perfect, but at least you can enjoy all of the Star Wars films individually or as a whole piece.

With regards the Blu ray, it is inexcusable based upon the above that the technology is available to put all versions on a disc, and Lucas is not allowing it to happen.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Roonan

Why? Because you say so? Is your opinion a fact (or more valid than others)?

Because he stated that on several occasions in several publications maybe? Now was he saying one thing and thinking another? I have no idea all we have to go by is what was coming out of his mouth.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

"Always"? What's the first recorded instance of the Force being explained as rooted in science?

The Making of Star Wars book shows notes for the original film that mention the midichlorians. It was always there, it just never ended up on screen.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

We have Anakin in Pod Races on Tatooine with ridiculously complex, beautiful, aerodynamic, streamlined vehicles, then 20 years later we have clunky land speeders on the same planet with no sign of the technology that had previously existed? Not just on a superficial level either.

Its definitely an issue, no qualms there. Thats why I like some of the "updates" graphics-wise to the special edtions of the originals. There is at least an attempt to try and get the look of the preqeuls. It works in some shots so its at least something.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

The Making of Star Wars book shows notes for the original film that mention the midichlorians. It was always there, it just never ended up on screen.

And I believe I asked to see those notes a couple 100 pages back. The problem is you have these books that have come out in the last 5 or so years that try and tell people about what was what back in the 1970's and early 80's and it's all revisionist history much like how he has handled the films. I bet we can compare books, magazines, articles and the like and they will contradict each other. Hey maybe we should it might be fun, maybe a new thread?

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Its definitely an issue, no qualms there. Thats why I like some of the "updates" graphics-wise to the special edtions of the originals. There is at least an attempt to try and get the look of the preqeuls. It works in some shots so its at least something.

See, I'm fine with the PTs technology being better, but I would have loved for them (and everyone else) to just admit they look better because of advancements in movie-making technology, not because of some grand master plan that Lucas had.

I'm sure when they created the X-Wing in the 70's they thought it was the pinnacle of sci-fi technology, they weren't thinking "Well, this looks like garbage. Perfect! Now to wait 20 years and show the world what technology used to look like".

What technology was preventing them from putting a Young Anakin in ROTJ originally, if that was the intent? It wouldn't have been any harder to insert a young actor than Sebastian Shaw, if it was always supposed to show Anakin "when he was still good" or whatever the current story is.

What technology was preventing Greedo from shooting first?

Just more proof, in my humble opinion, that it's ret-con and not something Lucas has had meticulously planned in his head since he was 15.

Continuing to contradict the statement he made about preserving art as it was made in 1988 shows that the guy does change his mind, I don't know why it's such a stretch to imagine he changed his mind about some things within the SW universe as well.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

"Always"? What's the first recorded instance of the Force being explained as rooted in science? I am going to guess that it was A Phantom Menace, in 1998.

That's why it sounds like ret-con, to me.

In my humble opinion...

It's not ret-con but part of the creative process. Lucas is an artist not a mathematician. Of course he didn't think in 77 "I have to wait 20 years now till ILM has figured out a way to create CGI-characters." First he took some time off to raise his kids. He IS a human being you know! After that he got back to his old notes and ideas and saw that meanwhile the technology had reached a point where he could fully realize the characters and places he wanted to create for the OT. The idea of midichlorians is from 1976 and clones were planned for "The Empire Strikes Back"! Lando and/or Boba Fett were originally planned as clones.

You can't expect someone releasing 3 new movies (the prequels) in a saga that are supposed to be the origin-story and have to be entertaining and exciting in their own right not to introduce some new concepts, ideas or surprises that are necessary to the plot!

[NYorker]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I understand that, but it's just a way of ret-conning it to explain why the special FX are so much better in movies made 20 years later.

You'll notice the Empire isn't rolling around in luxury whips either.

We're talking a period of like, what, 20-25 years from the end of Revenge of the Sith to the beginning of A New Hope? Is that really enough time for "oppression" to wipe out every single vehicle from the Old Republic?

I guess it's up to each individual person whether they buy it, but all I see is ret-con, that's all I've ever seen. This is actually the first time I've heard someone try and explain it in terms of the SW universe.

We have Anakin in Pod Races on Tatooine with ridiculously complex, beautiful, aerodynamic, streamlined vehicles, then 20 years later we have clunky land speeders on the same planet with no sign of the technology that had previously existed? Not just on a superficial level either.

Again, going by Lucas (shaky, I know...) it was made on purpose: the intent was to show the difference between the prosperous times and the results of the toll of 20+ galactic wars, in which most of the resources went to the empire's war machine.

[chip75]

Technology-wise the two trilogies do jar slightly. There is quite a lot of things that seem more advanced in The Phantom Menace than they do 35 years later.

A lot of this can be atributed to the galaxy going through 'The Dark Ages' or something similar. I'm sure the Emperor kept all advancements to himself or strictly monitored things. Most of the action in the episodes IV-VI takes place on the outer rim were advancements would move slower at a slower pace than core planets. It is odd though that Naboo seems to be so advanced compared to nearby systems 35 years later. That huge generator seems a bit unnecessary considering the population seems so small and we see so little of the cities.

The Empire seem to have the best of everything and all their technology seems brand new compared the used and battered look of the Millennium Falcon and the cobbled together rebel equipment.

Prequels are difficult to get look right take the tech in Star Trek Enterprise compared to the original series they went out of their way to not look more advanced than the Enterprise which was supposed to be 100(?) years in the future and that was all to do with the budget of the original series (not the writers imagination).

[Merlinpants]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

See, I'm fine with the PTs technology being better, but I would have loved for them (and everyone else) to just admit they look better because of advancements in movie-making technology, not because of some grand master plan that Lucas had.

But when he had the technology available to re-do the OT effects for the Special Editions, the ships still look old and bashed up, they just have no wires and matte lines. I can see a gaping hole in your argument

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by NYorker

it was made on purpose: the intent was to show the difference between the prosperous times and the results of the toll of 20+ galactic wars, in which most of the resources went to the empire's war machine.

exactly!

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

So now you are implying that Lucas waited 20 years on purpose to film these? Really? Are you really going to stick to that story? Lucas had no intentions of ever going back to these films until around 1993/94 and to suggest otherwise is just an out and out fabrication. As he said in 1989 he was done with Star Wars! Never going back again! Why do you see this as some Lucas grand master plan? They guy has been flying by the seat of his pants all through the 90's and throwing things together for the PT.

On the side of the box set for the faces VHS release there is a message from George Lucas that says "I hope you enjoy these films and future Star Wars film..." or something to that affect. No I dont think he had some giant masterplan, but he did plan on doing more.

[phatrat1982]

Originally Posted by JasonWard

Under democracy, art flourishes. Under Imperialism, things become very streamlined and design shifts as the means of production change. That's why X-Wings looked like pieced together tools and the Naboo Starfighter looks like a piece of art. In The Clone Wars, the first clone armor set is really strong. By Revenge of the Sith's phase II armor, it isn't as good and one character named Rex is reluctant to make the change. Under these two drastically different political climates, values change. Shields are important when you value life but become totally unimportant when you do not value life and so on.

Um then how do you account for the artistic marvels that the Romans are so famous for? That is a flawed explanation.


X-Wings are pieced together because they are scraps, the rebellion has no money they are an outlaw organization scrambling to get anything they can. Naboo Star fighters are planet, and culturally specific they represent a single planet that obviously had different values than say Coruscant where you see all types and shapes of starships that seam to be in line with the latter designs.


A better explanation would be in the original trilogy you are seeing things mostly from a skewed view point, Luke is a moisture farmer he is poor his technology is likely to be outdated as is common with poor small single family farms even in our world. The Imperial Star Destroyers look more advanced than the Clone Wars ones, they Imperial ships are larger, feature much greater Firepower. There is nothing along the lines of a Super Class Star Destroyer in the clone wars, in the movies they claimed there were dozens of those, in the novels there were only 3, so it kind of depends on how much stock you put into the EE.

The Death Star is a massive planet destroyer they had nothing even close to that during the Clone Wars era. Mostly you are seeing just a small sampling of the people in the original trilogy mostly rag tag rebels and outlaws like Han who is flying an old ship, probably pre-clone wars old. Cloud City looked like it was technologically advanced enough even for just a gas mine. If you consider context if a gas mine can be that advanced you can expect the parts of the galaxy we don't see, the offices, the courts, the senate, regular middle class people, you can assume they have superior technology to the fringe terrorist band of rebels.

[Merlinpants]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

Um then how do you account for the artistic marvels that the Romans are so famous for? That is a flawed explanation.

Because the Romans stole all of their works of art from the nations they conquered, the Greeks, the Egyptians etc. All of the societies they captured and put under Imperial rule dwindled and their art was lost to history as they were made to conform to the Empires will. You could almost draw a direct comparison with the PT and OT, but then no-one bothered to read my earlier post