Ask questions to Blu-ray BD-J insider "Talkstr8t"

[jorg]

talk i am very curious to bd-j abilitys to run as a type of "operating system" or to host programs

such as will there be a day were a program such as browser could be programed to run on a player?

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by jorg

talk i am very curious to bd-j abilitys to run as a type of "operating system" or to host programs

such as will there be a day were a program such as browser could be programed to run on a player?

Absolutely, since the Java platform supports most of the same capabilities an operating system does. In fact, it's already been done on the very similar Multimedia Home Platform (MHP), a standard for over-the-air and satellite TV based on the same Java platform as BD-J. When you watch "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" in Italy you get a Java browser (transparently) downloaded to your set-top box, and then that browser renders the HTML content for the game itself (see screenshot below). This model could work well for studios to use to access specific HTML content online, but probably wouldn't work great as a general purpose browser (since it likely wouldn't support all of the latest HTML standards used online).



- Talk

[ADIDAS]

Burning home movies is a hobby of mine. I currently use Adobe Encore CS3 for BDMV authoring. I can pretty much do the same menus as I can with DVD's. The only exception is that encore does not support subtitles for Blu ray authoring. There are currently no advanced BD-J menu options.

What are the chances in the future for authoring programs from Adobe and Apple to support BD-J? Will BD-J always require labor intensive programming with high end programs like Scenarist that are beyond the realm of the small independent producers.

[WickyWoo]

Hi Talk

I know a lot of our members don't really like the long loading times on Blu on existing players

Can you elaborate on the process a BD-J heavy disc like a Spidey 3 goes through when it loads? I realize that there are trade secrets and such involved, but perhaps a breakdown can better help people understand how the whole thing moves between the time you hit close and the menu pops up.

Thanks!

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

I know a lot of our members don't really like the long loading times on Blu on existing players

Can you elaborate on the process a BD-J heavy disc like a Spidey 3 goes through when it loads? I realize that there are trade secrets and such involved, but perhaps a breakdown can better help people understand how the whole thing moves between the time you hit close and the menu pops up.

Much of the loading time is related to a)benchmarking the player and b)preloading graphical assets. Benchmarking allows the disc to determine how performant the player is in order to tailer graphics and other effects as necessary. In the future software will be able to query the player for that information rather than running a benchmark, so time will be saved. Preloading assets means you can cache graphics and have less impact on latency as the movie is playing, but does result in an initial delay. I expect faster players and new authoring techniques will help minimize this.

[blitz6speed]

Talk

Can a method be applied to the older, slower Profile 1.0 players firmwares, so that you could start up a disc and say, hold down a certain button at bootup, and it bypasses all the menus, bd-j stuff, and just plays the movie with no major options? I bet that would be a VERY popular feature.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

Can a method be applied to the older, slower Profile 1.0 players firmwares, so that you could start up a disc and say, hold down a certain button at bootup, and it bypasses all the menus, bd-j stuff, and just plays the movie with no major options? I bet that would be a VERY popular feature.

I think this would violate the spec, as in effect the player would be arbitrarily bypassing content which it is supposed to execute. The studios could certainly author their titles to support this sort of capability...

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by ADIDAS

Burning home movies is a hobby of mine. I currently use Adobe Encore CS3 for BDMV authoring. I can pretty much do the same menus as I can with DVD's. The only exception is that encore does not support subtitles for Blu ray authoring. There are currently no advanced BD-J menu options.

What are the chances in the future for authoring programs from Adobe and Apple to support BD-J? Will BD-J always require labor intensive programming with high end programs like Scenarist that are beyond the realm of the small independent producers.

I can't speak for Adobe and Apple, but there are definitely authoring tools which don't require programming skills. Costs are still relatively high, but I expect cheaper (or even open source) options to emerge.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Absolutely, since the Java platform supports most of the same capabilities an operating system does. In fact, it's already been done on the very similar Multimedia Home Platform (MHP), a standard for over-the-air and satellite TV based on the same Java platform as BD-J. When you watch "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" in Italy you get a Java browser (transparently) downloaded to your set-top box, and then that browser renders the HTML content for the game itself (see screenshot below). This model could work well for studios to use to access specific HTML content online, but probably wouldn't work great as a general purpose browser (since it likely wouldn't support all of the latest HTML standards used online).



- Talk

THAT is seriously cool. I take it that this feature allows the viewer to actually take their own guess at the answer, with the software determining the correct response at the appropriate time?

This is the sort of interactivity I'd love to see in otherwise static content - maybe insted of just the raw trivia tracks like we see in discs from Fox, for instance, we could see an actual in-movie trivia game.

I don't think trying to use the BD-j environment for a web browser would work very well - certainly not well enough to impress the average user who doesn't understand what internet latency is; there just isn't enough storage and computational power to make it work smoothly even with a solid net connection, and heaven help you if you're one of those poor benighted souls with a "broadband" cable connection that taps out at 60Kbps due to too many users connected to the same node (yes, I've actually seen this happen, as the area I live in was one of the earliest markets for cable internet service).

Are your contacts at the various studios excited about what sort of extra functionality they can now produce as a value-added product to provide alongside passive TV/movie content?

P.S. It's too bad Paramount is (at least for the current time) on the other side of the fence. I would buy something like Clue in a heartbeat on Blu-ray if it were able to simulate the interactive voting phenomenon that the original theatrical film had.

[Banjo]

Thanks for responding. I really appreciate it. I think I'm going to take some of your suggestions and see what happen. :-)

[blubb]

Hi Talkstr8t,

i wrote a GEM/BD-J Software and would like to burn it on a BD-R.

Is there any consumer-level software capable of burning a BD-J Disc? Does a PS3 play those disc?

[blckshp]

Talk, I've been waiting for you to show up. LOL I have a lot of questions regarding OCAP and interactivity. Even though I'm working for the corporate software house for a major MSO who has led the cable industry in the development of OCAP, we don't get all the information. We just get to play with the stuff and beat our heads against the wall to make it work.

My question is, was the original reason why the BDA chose BD-J was that they were looking forward to IPTV. We all know that Microsoft has been working hard on IPTV and their HDI is what they were hoping to become a standard there. But their licensing fees are usually higher than what people like and going with an open source platform would save money in the future in those licensing fees. Especially, like you said, that given the current authoring process, they can use the same interactivity designed for BD for broadcast when appropriate. Microsoft would probably have charged for a double dip there, since there are two different technologies.

A second question, you may or may not know anything about. I know that Cablelabs has set the OCAP spec for the two way system for cable, but that the CE's, mainly Sony, aren't fond of it and want to do their own version of it. I don't have a lot of details on it, but I do know that Sony along with some other companies are trying to get that spec changed. Any insight on this and how it may affect our Home Media experience in the future?

Thanks!

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by blckshp

Talk, I've been waiting for you to show up. LOL I have a lot of questions regarding OCAP and interactivity. Even though I'm working for the corporate software house for a major MSO who has led the cable industry in the development of OCAP, we don't get all the information. We just get to play with the stuff and beat our heads against the wall to make it work.

My question is, was the original reason why the BDA chose BD-J was that they were looking forward to IPTV.

No, I don't think IPTV was significantly on the radar when Java was selected for BD-J. Also, while a BD player could clearly serve as an IPTV client, I don't think the business case is there for it yet (other than the PS3), as there simply isn't enough penetration yet for a telco to consider it as a viable platform.

We all know that Microsoft has been working hard on IPTV and their HDI is what they were hoping to become a standard there. But their licensing fees are usually higher than what people like and going with an open source platform would save money in the future in those licensing fees.

I don't think licensing fees are the issue with Microsoft's approach so much as their proprietary end-to-end software. A Java client, being based on standards, can easily be replaced with another vendor's implementation. The same can't be said of Microsoft's Media Room IPTV platform.

A second question, you may or may not know anything about. I know that Cablelabs has set the OCAP spec for the two way system for cable, but that the CE's, mainly Sony, aren't fond of it and want to do their own version of it. I don't have a lot of details on it, but I do know that Sony along with some other companies are trying to get that spec changed. Any insight on this and how it may affect our Home Media experience in the future?

Sony has been fighting against OCAP (now known as tru2way), but we have some strong vendors in favor of it, including Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Thomson, and even Toshiba. Intel, Microsoft, and Tivo have even come around to some extent.

The FCC may choose to make tru2way mandatory, may choose the CEA's alternate approach, or may not rule either way, but in the absence of a ruling against tru2way I think we'll see very widespread adoption over the next few years.

- Talk

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Sony has been fighting against OCAP (now known as tru2way), but we have some strong vendors in favor of it, including Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Thomson, and even Toshiba. Intel, Microsoft, and Tivo have even come around to some extent.

Why would Sony fight against something that opens up a market they can't really enter right now?

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

The FCC may choose to make tru2way mandatory, may choose the CEA's alternate approach, or may not rule either way, but in the absence of a ruling against tru2way I think we'll see very widespread adoption over the next few years.

Do you see someone like Panasonic sticking a BD reader/burner in one of these, and making it a complete media box?

Gary

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Why would Sony fight against something that opens up a market they can't really enter right now?

It opens up the set-top box market, but it's unlikely anyone can make sufficient revenue there anyway unless they get a big contract from one of the cable operators (as Panasonic has done from Comcast). Sony's beef with tru2way is that it's a cable-owned specification. If Sony builds a tru2way TV they aren't satisfied that cable will ensure that the apps run as well on that TV as they do on the cable companies leased set-top box, and if they don't Sony could have a big customer satisfaction issue on their hands for something they don't have control over. In effect cable is going to have to satisfy the remaining CE companies (or the FCC) that they can manage the specification in a way to ensure everyone can confidently put product in the market which supports that spec. It's really not much different than Blu-ray and BD-J, it's just that Sony has strong influence over BD-J (as a BDA director and founder), whereas they have virtually no influence over cable.

Do you see someone like Panasonic sticking a BD reader/burner in one of these, and making it a complete media box?

Sure, in time, but I think it'll be a few years, as costs need to come down far enough and the networks have to get comfortable with their high-value content (i.e. HBO, Video-on-demand) being written to optical media. I don't think we've as yet seen anyone successfully put a red-laser DVD recorder in a cable DVR (Humax did with Tivo), so doing so with Blu-ray on a tru2way device would be another step beyond that.

[PaulGo]

Talk what do you think of this? I think it will help bring additional resources to BD-J and also minimizes the use of HDi.

CableLabs(R) Establishes OpenCable(TM) Project on Java.net

LOUISVILLE, Colo., Feb 12, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- In order to expand resources for tru2way application developers, CableLabs has established the OpenCable Project on Sun Microsystems' Java.net site.

Cable operators are delivering on their promise to deploy tru2way interactivity to consumers' homes in the form of tru2way-enabled set-top boxes which utilize Java-based applications. Time Warner Cable already has deployed nearly 600,000 tru2way set-top boxes and Comcast has made the commitment to deploy support for tru2way devices system-wide by the end of 2008...

... The tru2way brand is the cable industry's marketing identification of interactive applications for consumers. The tru2way term succeeds OpenCable Platform which will continue as the term describing the underlying set of technical specifications that support tru2way applications. Tru2way has foundations in MHP (Multimedia Home Platform) and is similar to Blu-ray Java (BD-J) both of which are also based on Sun Microsystems' Java platform. "Having such common standards allows application developers to draw from their existing knowledge base while providing cross-platform application development opportunities going forward," stated Mark
Coblitz, Senior Vice President of Strategic Planning for Comcast....

Full article at:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/i...476400_15.html

[Ian_S]

Hi Talk,

Just curious, people are expecting a Blu-ray drive equivalent for the 360 now Toshiba have thrown in the towel. Is that possible? Last time I remember Sun & MS weren't on the best footing with regard to Java source code, and presumably that would be what is required for MS to code a software BD player on the 360?

Would Sun prefer a 3rd party to code a BD player for 360 (if at all) so that MS do not have Java code, or is all that consigned to history?

Do you think a 360 BD option is likely even?

Regards, Ian.

[scott1256ca]

Even though the big news of the day is that Toshiba conceded, I have a question for you concerning BD+.

Last I heard, part of BD+ could be circumvented and copies made of the disc, but not decrypting for re-encodes.

I have also heard there is more work being done on BD+.

So can you tell us how this work is progressing? Is it holding anything up (like announcements)? How long before titles with the new improved BD+ show up? Do the principals involved expect this to be a never ending battle?

Thanks

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Hi Talk,

Just curious, people are expecting a Blu-ray drive equivalent for the 360 now Toshiba have thrown in the towel. Is that possible? Last time I remember Sun & MS weren't on the best footing with regard to Java source code, and presumably that would be what is required for MS to code a software BD player on the 360? Would Sun prefer a 3rd party to code a BD player for 360 (if at all) so that MS do not have Java code, or is all that consigned to history?

Sun and Microsoft have broad cross-licensing agreements put in place as part of or after the $2B settlement from MS to Sun. Access to Java source code would not be an impediment to Microsoft releasing BD support for the Xbox 360. Besides, most BD player manufacturers license their BD-J implementation from one of three or four companies and as such never touch Java source code. Processor capability might be an issue, however - at one time Microsoft said it took every bit of CPU to make HD DVD work, especially for high-bitrate AVC titles, and Blu-ray supports 60% higher bitrate than HD.

Do you think a 360 BD option is likely even?

No, I don't expect it. I don't think it fits Microsoft's market plans for the Xbox nor do I think there'd be much of a market for it.

- Talk

[Talkstr8t]

Whoops, sorry, missed a couple of these posts.

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Talk what do you think of this? I think it will help bring additional resources to BD-J and also minimizes the use of HDi.

CableLabs(R) Establishes OpenCable(TM) Project on Java.net

It's great - I'm seeing increasing cross-pollination between BD-J and OCAP, which benefits both formats (most BD-J publishers will have interest in making their content available to cable and vice versa). Also note the HDCookbook project also at Java.net - it's probably the best developer forum for BD-J developers, with lots of free source code, tools, and such.

- Talk