PS3 Blu-Ray discs breaking very easily!

[chiefrock]

Hi guys,

I run an online game rental business and found a huge flaw with PS3 and possibly all Blu-Ray discs. They break in the cold incredibly easily.

It all started when we received more and more broken PS3 discs. What was particular is that they were broken in a way I had never seen. All normal discs (PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, etc) will break from the inside out.

However the PS3 discs all had a very small crack on the outside of the disc. At first we thought they probably broke in the mail, but it was so similar and so weird that we decided to do a test.

We took one of the discs that was already a little broken, circled the crack with a marker and put it outside in -5 celsius weather for a night. It was inside 2 envelopes and a Tyvek sleeve, all this in a plastic bag.

This is the first crack we saw and we circled. It actually got much larger after the night in the cold:



Here is the second crack that was not there when we put it outside (don't mind the reflect of the glass, follow the arrow):



There was no impact at all for the second crack. No need to say this is horrible for us and anyone living in cold weather. Imagine leaving your games in your car during a cold night, and coming back to find that one or a few are broken.

Hopefully the Blu-Ray people will take note!

[DavePS3]

Interesting! Well, that's it for me... no more playing BD discs outside of my igloo, damn it! Good to know though. Especially for anyone leaving BD discs in the trunk of the car overnight.

[akadkins]

This is interesting because it contradicts the widespread posting regarding how indestuctible Blu-ray discs are...isn't there a Youtube posting on it?

[ps3andlovinit]

this isn't happening to all those discs being shipped in freezing cold cargo containers on trucks, planes and railroads. I didn't think they heated them. Especially trucks getting them to stores or sitting in parking lots overnight - I thought fuel is way too expensive and margins way too slim for them too heat anything other than the cabs. If that's the case the only difference I can see is they are in a hard case to protect them. Since the one you put out in the cold was already compromised for unknown reasons maybe you should try compromising another type of disc and see if it's crack gets larger or has secondary cracks as well. What happens if you leave them out overnight in -5 temps?

Having a background in quality assurance I can say you may have jumped to some conclusions a little too early. Once the surface of any disc is comprised the chances of it being damaged further is increased and with less trauma required. Now it's also possible that your packaging is causing condensation to build on the surface due to extreme temp changes - something that the hard cases may not cause and would explain why your getting it and the bulk shipments don't.

What was the on-line service? You didn't say. Maybe I can help you to figure it out.

DavePS3.. igloo playing?..but you can't do that because the heat from the PS3 is going to melt your home. What's your secret?

[Heresy]

Originally Posted by akadkins

This is interesting because it contradicts the widespread posting regarding how indestuctible Blu-ray discs are...isn't there a Youtube posting on it?

I think the 'indestructability' is aimed more at its resistence to scratches. The FUD that was spread by MS/HD-DVD was that Blu-ray discs would be easily damaged since the data is closer to the surface of the discs and that scratches on the surface would make the discs unplayable (of course that was completely false and Blu-rays seem to resist scratches a lot better than HD-DVDs do.)

The cold affecting the discs is just plain weird.

[Jim L]

I've been renting lots of Blu-rays from Netflix and none have broken like this.

[thunderhawk]

Weird indeed.
Damn, that's... That's just... Could it be the dye? Or...

It's as if there's water *in* the disc that freezes and expands...

[The Big Blue]

I think this guy might be to blame....

[jason]

heh yeah its the evil man.

that kinda sucks, some companies are adding the "hard coating" layer for standard dvds now too...

[JToddler]

Anything can break from any kind of pressure in any shape or form! Needless to say anything made of plastic or any material can be damaged easily! I can show you a picture of a cracked steel!

[chiefrock]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

this isn't happening to all those discs being shipped in freezing cold cargo containers on trucks, planes and railroads. I didn't think they heated them. Especially trucks getting them to stores or sitting in parking lots overnight - I thought fuel is way too expensive and margins way too slim for them too heat anything other than the cabs. If that's the case the only difference I can see is they are in a hard case to protect them. Since the one you put out in the cold was already compromised for unknown reasons maybe you should try compromising another type of disc and see if it's crack gets larger or has secondary cracks as well. What happens if you leave them out overnight in -5 temps?

Having a background in quality assurance I can say you may have jumped to some conclusions a little too early. Once the surface of any disc is comprised the chances of it being damaged further is increased and with less trauma required. Now it's also possible that your packaging is causing condensation to build on the surface due to extreme temp changes - something that the hard cases may not cause and would explain why your getting it and the bulk shipments don't.

What was the on-line service? You didn't say. Maybe I can help you to figure it out.

DavePS3.. igloo playing?..but you can't do that because the heat from the PS3 is going to melt your home. What's your secret?

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the feedback. Our service is http://www.gameaccess.caif you ask but I don't want this to look as promo. What makes me think it's cold related is the following. I spoke to a large US rental service that rents them by mail and they have not had many issues (or as many) to consider it a problem. It's probably the same thing for Netflix.

10% of all our PS3 games in inventory are breaking exactly like this, and personnally, I would not see how making these types of cracks with an impact is possible. Also note none of these discs that broke show any signs of other impact or damage. We have also tried to manually cause this and bend them like crazy, hit them and we saw nothing. We've made around 40 000 game shipments so far and have analyzed over 200 broken discs, we've never seen anything like this, and it's only for PS3 discs.

Also the fact we put a game outside and a new crack appeared and the other one expanded is a big part of the reason of the post.

For the cold weather during transport, trucks are mildly heated and the temparature inside any plane or train will be cold yes, but probably not as cold because of the ambiant air.The discs are also sealed with the cases and this could keep warm more easily with the air inside them They will never be as exposed to cold weather as directly as this.

That being said, if anybody from Blu-Ray wants to contact us so we can run more tests (we have many more discs), we will be glad to help them.

thank you all!

[chiefrock]

I don't know why the system wants to moderate the fist reply I made, maybe because of an html link, but here is a second try...

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

this isn't happening to all those discs being shipped in freezing cold cargo containers on trucks, planes and railroads. I didn't think they heated them. Especially trucks getting them to stores or sitting in parking lots overnight - I thought fuel is way too expensive and margins way too slim for them too heat anything other than the cabs. If that's the case the only difference I can see is they are in a hard case to protect them. Since the one you put out in the cold was already compromised for unknown reasons maybe you should try compromising another type of disc and see if it's crack gets larger or has secondary cracks as well. What happens if you leave them out overnight in -5 temps?

Having a background in quality assurance I can say you may have jumped to some conclusions a little too early. Once the surface of any disc is comprised the chances of it being damaged further is increased and with less trauma required. Now it's also possible that your packaging is causing condensation to build on the surface due to extreme temp changes - something that the hard cases may not cause and would explain why your getting it and the bulk shipments don't.

What was the on-line service? You didn't say. Maybe I can help you to figure it out.

DavePS3.. igloo playing?..but you can't do that because the heat from the PS3 is going to melt your home. What's your secret?

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the feedback. Our service is GameAccess.ca if you ask, but I don't want this to look as promo and it is definitely not the purpose of this post. What makes me think it's cold related is the following. I spoke to a large US rental service that rents them by mail and they have not had many issues (or as many) to consider it a problem. It's probably the same thing for Netflix.

10% of all our PS3 games in inventory are breaking exactly like this, and personnally, I would not see how making these types of cracks with an impact is possible. Also note that none of the discs that broke show any signs of impact or other damage. We have also tried to manually cause this and bend them like crazy too, hit them and we saw nothing. We've made around 40 000 game shipments so far and have analyzed over 200 broken discs, we've never seen anything like this, and it's only for PS3 discs.

Also the fact we put a game outside and a new crack appeared and the other one expanded is a big part of the reason of the post.

For the cold weather during transport, trucks are mildly heated and the temparature inside any plane or train will be cold yes, but probably not as cold because of the ambiant air.The discs are also sealed with the cases and this could keep warm more easily with the air inside them. They will never be as exposed to cold weather as directly as this. We also noticed that most, if not all of the discs break when games are sent back to us. On our side we deposit games at the post office, but customers mostly put them in mailboxes that are incredibly cold so that would be another hint about the cold factor. From now we will advise our clients to deposit PS3 games at a post office if possible.

That being said, if anybody from Blu-Ray wants to contact us so they can run more tests, we will be glad to help them. We have plenty of broken discs they can analyze.

thank you all!

[phranctoast]

-off to leave talladega nights in the freezing weather-

[ps3andlovinit]

why don't you try putting one outside just in the original hard case..that would at least provide some clue if the packaging is causing condensation and causing a different type of stress than seen in bulk transport.

Insulation can be a problem in your home if you get it wrong..it's possible the envelope layers are creating a similar (unintended) issue in cold weather for these disks. At least you could start eliminating it as an issue and have more information to pass on. It may be these disks will require a different packaging solution..even if it's not the current packaging "creating" an issue. Just being realistic as to possible solutions.

I'm intrigued..would like to know the answer.

[chiefrock]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

why don't you try putting one outside just in the original hard case..that would at least provide some clue if the packaging is causing condensation and causing a different type of stress than seen in bulk transport.

Insulation can be a problem in your home if you get it wrong..it's possible the envelope layers are creating a similar (unintended) issue in cold weather for these disks. At least you could start eliminating it as an issue and have more information to pass on. It may be these disks will require a different packaging solution..even if it's not the current packaging "creating" an issue. Just being realistic as to possible solutions.

I'm intrigued..would like to know the answer.

It's true it could be many things. I'll try putting one or 2 in some cases and leaving them outside tonight. I'll also do some before and after pics.

I just wish I had hundreds of Blu-Ray discs to spare to do all sort of tests. Any Blu-Ray people on this board? This should be your job, not mine...

[ps3andlovinit]

"cheap" investment vs the alternative..

I would expect that sitting in an extreme cold canadian post office box wasn't on the test case list .. but that's why it's important for you to determine it's NOT your packaging that's changing any baseline testing they may have done.

They may in fact have tested it down to a certain temperature and found no problems when they were on there own or in a hard case. Not saying they did - but you will get further faster if you can eliminate its' "you".

I assume they also have some technical specs somewhere about "operating" temps on the discs themselves.

[BIGSAPOTEER]

Thats the last time I let my cousin (he lives in the North Pole) borrow my PS3 games. From now on my other cousin (He lives in the Sahara desert) will only be borrowing my games.

[Dave Mack]

Wow. The OP who runs a business is mentioning a genuine concern. This is costing him $. All these wise-ass responses here...
I read on another site a very similar thing with BD movies through Netflix having the same cracks. Alot of people live in very cold environments and some (like us) have mailboxes outside. Metal, uninsulated unheated mailboxes.
If rental companies start having to pay for alot of replaced discs due to cracking from cold weather, it is gonna be an issue... I doubt Sony or whatever studio produces these discs is gonna replace them for free.

[What'sHD]

OP, I suggest mentioning it to BDA insiders on this forum.

PG comes to mind, he might be able to hook you up with the right folk.

Good luck, hope it is solved soon.

[AlaskaDon]

I haven't seen any problems like this with any of my BD's thankfully. I'm definetly going to have to do some experiments though, probably involving my copy of House of Flying Daggers.

On a side note, as long as the outside temperature is low enough, the PS3 does not put out enough heat to melt your igloo