Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Yami]

They can't do that if they've already signed the contract. Plus, a lot of people go for things specifically because of their limited status. People were not happy when the limited edition Akira steel book was reprinted to address demand.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by Yami

They can't do that if they've already signed the contract. Plus, a lot of people go for things specifically because of their limited status. People were not happy when the limited edition Akira steel book was reprinted to address demand.

They could do it if they signed another contract with Sony.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by joie

Another reason a release could be "limited" is that a studio is guaging the potential response to a release of their own by the response to a small distributor's release. If the release by a small distributor sells out quickly, then the studio may perceive that there would be sufficient demand for their own release.

That was part of the original reasoning of the guys who started Twilight Time (they're former home video execs). The deal allows studios to reissue any titles after a 3-year window, if the studios choose to do that.

Originally Posted by rdodolak

They could do it if they signed another contract with Sony.

Not likely. It doesn't seem to me it would be in the interest of either party to modify or renegotiate their contract. In the case of the studio, once they realize that there is indeed demand for a title, they won't want the TT release to compete with their own future sales. And for "Twilight Time", they'd be breaching confidence with their customers. Many customers would not even worry about any title selling out, because they'd figure there would be a 2nd pressing. Then customers would not be in any hurry to buy anything. The TT sales would suffer as a result and their business model would not be as effective.

To avoid undermining consumer confidence, it is probably best for both parties to stick with the original terms of their agreement. Any changes and the arrangement would be less financially attractive for both companies.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

Not likely. It doesn't seem to me it would be in the interest of either party to modify or renegotiate their contract. In the case of the studio, once they realize that there is indeed demand for a title, they won't want the TT release to compete with their own future sales. And for "Twilight Time", they'd be breaching confidence with their customers. Many customers would not even worry about any title selling out, because they'd figure there would be a 2nd pressing. Then customers would not be in any hurry to buy anything. The TT sales would suffer as a result and their business model would not be as effective.

To avoid undermining consumer confidence, it is probably best for both parties to stick with the original terms of their agreement. Any changes and the arrangement would be less financially attractive for both companies.

Yes but won't is much different than can't or not possible. It's possible but it's unlikely that TT will renegotiate the contract to print more copies.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

Yes but won't is much different than can't or not possible. It's possible but it's unlikely that TT will renegotiate the contract to print more copies.

Have you actually read either HTF or KQEK's interviews with Twilight Time's Nick Redman rdodolak? I'm not trying to be snarky - I simply can't understand how, if you had read those pieces, you could still be posting such recondite comments about TT's limited release model, especially the 3000 unit 'ceiling' on their total number of Blu-rays. In a nutshell, if they exceed that number - known in the industry as 'the magazine rate' - other licensing factors kick in, including fees for profit participants, and potential complications securing music rights. They wanted a "clean" upfront deal for both themselves and the studio, but that "cleanliness" gets lost the minute they're forced to engage 3rd and 4th parties, as well as unions and lawyers.

I urge you (and anyone else who is still scratchin' their noggin here or over on the AGAIG board) to read both those interviews. Without that basic understanding of what's actually going on with this label's output, you're just dooming yourself to continual confusion over the logic and practice of TT's catalogue release model.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

Have you actually read either HTF or KQEK's interviews with Twilight Time's Nick Redman rdodolak? I'm not trying to be snarky - I simply can't understand how, if you had read those pieces, you could still be posting such recondite comments about TT's limited release model, especially the 3000 unit 'ceiling' on their total number of Blu-rays. In a nutshell, if they exceed that number - known in the industry as 'the magazine rate' - other licensing factors kick in, including fees for profit participants, and potential complications securing music rights. They wanted a "clean" upfront deal for both themselves and the studio, but that "cleanliness" gets lost the minute they're forced to engage 3rd and 4th parties, as well as unions and lawyers.

I urge you (and anyone else who is still scratchin' their noggin here or over on the AGAIG board) to read both those interviews. Without that basic understanding of what's actually going on with this label's output, you're just dooming yourself to continual confusion over the logic and practice of TT's catalogue release model.

Why yes I have read both interviews ROclockCK but there is no reason to be snarky about it. If you're that irritated with other members posting in these threads then maybe you should stay away from them. What has been posted in these threads is that TT absolutley can't release any more copies (e.g. it's completely impossible) and that Sony is the one that limited them to 3000. The point I'm making is that both are incorrect, as Sony wasn't the one that limited TT to 3000 copies and TT could (e.g. it's completely within the realm of the possible) release more copies had they wanted to. It's obvious that TT didn't want to and it's highly unlikely that they would ever try and release more copies since it goes against their strategy.

It's interesting that Image, Criterion, Olive, Kino, etc have no problem with releasing quantity unconstrained releases but TT does; oh that's right it's because it's against the TT strategy.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

What has been posted in these threads is that TT absolutley can't release any more copies (e.g. it's completely impossible) and that Sony is the one that limited them to 3000. The point I'm making is that both are incorrect, as Sony wasn't the one that limited TT to 3000 copies and TT could (e.g. it's completely within the realm of the possible) release more copies had they wanted to. It's obvious that TT didn't want to and it's highly unlikely that they would ever try and release more copies since it goes against their strategy.

But at what extra risk, delay, and cost to TT, and by extension their buyers?

This was all explained in Redman's comments about maintaining a "clean" licensing model that didn't require additional work by the studio legal department, thus allowing the front office to basically just 'cash a cheque' right up front. After that, it's all on TT's shoulders whether they've made the 'right' decision regarding the sales prospects for a particular title. 3000 units is not only their 'safe zone' from Redman's years of experience releasing limited edition collector soundtracks, but also because it aligns with 'the magazine rate' production ceiling.

So yes, it's true, TT "chose" to make the deal at that level, but didn't arbitrarily do so, because had they chosen to license more, they would have entered an entirely different world of negotiations. Once that choice has been made though, and the ink has dried on the contract, both parties have no easy or inexpensive recourse - TT would be in breach if they ran more discs, and SPHE or Fox would be in breach if they collapsed the 3 year release window to re-issue it themselves or offer it to others. The trust lost wouldn't be worth it for either of them...or ultimately, buyers.

All this is moot, because - for the umpteenth time - the only reason this stuff is even available to TT, is because the studios have no burning interest in releasing these titles wider themselves...at least for the forseeable future, and maybe never. They want to deliver media to you in digital form directly, not run the retail gauntlet with 'hard' media, hoping to find some of you before they have to take back thousands and thousands of unsold stock.

Originally Posted by rdodolak

It's interesting that Image, Criterion, Olive, Kino, etc have no problem with releasing quantity unconstrained releases but TT does; oh that's right it's because it's against the TT strategy.

Yep. But please see above (and elsewhere, ad nauseum) re: the difference in these sales models...especially regarding the impact of the retail distribution/sales component, plus studio residuals based on ongoing sales performance vs. an up front, one-time only, maximum benefit cash payout to the studio with no backend risk.

Apples and Oranges.

[benbess]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

But at what extra risk, delay, and cost to TT, and by extension their buyers?

This was all explained in Redman's comments about maintaining a "clean" licensing model that didn't require additional work by the studio legal department, thus allowing the front office to basically just 'cash a cheque' right up front. After that, it's all on TT's shoulders whether they've made the 'right' decision regarding the sales prospects for a particular title. 3000 units is not only their 'safe zone' from Redman's years of experience releasing limited collector soundtrack releases, but also because it aligns with 'the magazine rate' production ceiling.

So yes, it's true, TT "chose" to make the deal at that level, but didn't arbitrarily do so, because had they chosen to license more, they would have entered an entirely different world of negotiations. Once that choice is made though, and the ink has dried on the contract, both parties have no easy or inexpensive recourse - TT would be in breach if they ran more discs, and SPHE or Fox would be in breach if they collapsed the 3 year release window to re-issue it themselves or offer it to others. The trust lost wouldn't be worth it for either of them...or ultimately, buyers.

All this is moot, because - for the umpteenth time - the only reason this stuff is even available to TT, is because the studios have no burning interest in releasing these titles wider themselves...at least for the forseeable future, and maybe never. They want to deliver media to you in digital form directly, not run the retail gauntlet with 'hard' media, hoping to find some of you before they have to take back thousands and thousands of unsold stock.

Yep. But please see above (and elsewhere, ad nauseum) re: the difference in these sales models...especially regarding the impact of the retail distribution/sales component, plus studio residuals based on ongoing sales performance vs. an up front, one-time only, maximum benefit cash payout to the studio with no backend risk.

Apples and Oranges.

This explains it all very well....

Good work.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by benbess

This explains it all very well....

Good work.

Thanks benbess.

Now, back to the movies on TT's schedule, or the ones we hope to see...

All this sturm und drang over SPHE's AGAIG licensing decision made me realize that we have been discussing a lot of wishlist Fox titles, but not as many from the Columbia library. Other than the Bogart, Capra, and Noir classics, what Columbia titles are folks pining for, especially from the widescreen era? A couple of guilty pleasures for me would be The Devil at 4 O'Clock and Barabbas, plus more Harryhausen, of course.

[Yami]

The Lady from Shanghai would be great. Maybe The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T, Sundays and Cybele and some Jacques Tourneur (Night of the Demon?).

[Page14]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

"Tender Mercies" was released on DVD by Lionsgate; "Wrestling Ernest Hemingway" is currently available from the Warner Archive as a made-on-demand DVD.

My guess is the only likelihood of those movies coming out on BD would be if their respective studios released them... maybe WHV will some day start releasing on-demand blu-rays?

Thank you.

This thread has so much great information in it. FWIW, I appreciate all of the input by *everybody*. Thank you all.

[Blu-Velvet]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

Thanks benbess.

Now, back to the movies on TT's schedule, or the ones we hope to see...

All this sturm und drang over SPHE's AGAIG licensing decision made me realize that we have been discussing a lot of wishlist Fox titles, but not as many from the Columbia library. Other than the Bogart, Capra, and Noir classics, what Columbia titles are folks pining for, especially from the widescreen era? A couple of guilty pleasures for me would be The Devil at 4 O'Clock and Barrabas, plus more Harryhausen, of course.

Well, as I noted above, I'd love to see the restored uncut roadshow version of MACKENNA'S GOLD and both the color theatrical cut and Bogdanovich's longer B&W cut of NICKELODEON, and my most-desired Harryhausen is FIRST MEN IN THE MOON. But dare we hope now for such theoretically major titles as ON THE WATERFRONT, FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, DEATH OF A SALESMAN, BORN YESTERDAY, and all the Capra classics? That would really be great, and I'd get every one of them.

Some more 1960s-1970 Columbia titles that seem to me to fit Twilight Time's approach to catalog releases that I'd like to see on Blu-ray would be ADVISE AND CONSENT, SUNDAYS AND CYBELE, BYE BYE BIRDIE, CAT BALLOU, LORD JIM, SHIP OF FOOLS, A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS, THE WRONG BOX, THE SWIMMER, BOB & CAROL & TED & ALICE, HUSBANDS, I NEVER SANG FOR MY FATHER, and RIVERRUN.

Out of this last selection I'd prefer to see A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS, THE WRONG BOX, and SHIP OF FOOLS come out first, right after NICKELODEON and MACKENNA'S GOLD (love that movie for some reason, and not just for Julie Newmar's swimming scene, plus it's got a fantastic Quincy Jones score that sounds like Dmitri Tiomkin).

Can hardly wait for the Columbia (and Fox) releases over the next several months!

And just thinking "out loud," I wonder whether any of Twilight Time's fans with special scholarly expertise on one film or another might be willing to record an audio commentary at no charge (maybe a copy of the disc) that could be included on the release.

[Blu-Velvet]

Originally Posted by Yami

The Lady from Shanghai would be great. Maybe The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T, Sundays and Cybele and some Jacques Tourneur (Night of the Demon?).

Yes, all of those! And add to that AFFAIR IN TRINIDAD, GILDA, and any number of lesser-known noirs! Not to mention the 1930s screwball comedies! And for a classic widescreen musical there's the full-length restoration of 1776 that finally came out on DVD, but I'm longing to see and hear on Blu-ray.

Any chance they'd try a set of shorts? Sony has very sporadically included a short or two on a few selected classic DVDs. Apparently a planned DVD box set of Columbia shorts starring Charley Chase has been "in the works" for some years now with no release date in sight. The complete Mr. Magoo theatrical cartoons (miles above the TV stuff) would be another potential set to balance Warner's great Tom & Jerry and Looney Toons Blu-ray sets, and some of the Magoo cartoons were in scope, but perhaps Sony thinks something like that might actually sell enough on the family video shelves to do it themselves. If only a few shorts or cartoons have been mastered in HD, maybe TT could get one for each feature as a bonus. (More thinking out loud here.)

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by Blu-Velvet

Well, as I noted above, I'd love to see the restored uncut roadshow version of MACKENNA'S GOLD and both the color theatrical cut and Bogdanovich's longer B&W cut of NICKELODEON, and my most-desired Harryhausen is FIRST MEN IN THE MOON. But dare we hope now for such theoretically major titles as ON THE WATERFRONT, FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, DEATH OF A SALESMAN, BORN YESTERDAY, and all the Capra classics? That would really be great, and I'd get every one of them.

Some more 1960s-1970 Columbia titles that seem to me to fit Twilight Time's approach to catalog releases that I'd like to see on Blu-ray would be ADVISE AND CONSENT, SUNDAYS AND CYBELE, BYE BYE BIRDIE, CAT BALLOU, LORD JIM, SHIP OF FOOLS, A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS, THE WRONG BOX, THE SWIMMER, BOB & CAROL & TED & ALICE, HUSBANDS, I NEVER SANG FOR MY FATHER, and RIVERRUN.

Out of this last selection I'd prefer to see A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS, THE WRONG BOX, and SHIP OF FOOLS come out first, right after NICKELODEON and MACKENNA'S GOLD (love that movie for some reason, and not just for Julie Newmar's swimming scene, plus it's got a fantastic Quincy Jones score that sounds like Dmitri Tiomkin).

Can hardly wait for the Columbia (and Fox) releases over the next several months!

And just thinking "out loud," I wonder whether any of Twilight Time's fans with special scholarly expertise on one film or another might be willing to record an audio commentary at no charge (maybe a copy of the disc) that could be included on the release.

Excellent suggestions Blu Velvet...especially that last one. I don't know what the legalities would be in offering a 'guest' commentary track (or several) on each release, but since it would only be a playback option and take up negligible disc space, it's certainly feasible from a technical standpoint.

Actually, that's the kind of innovative approach TT might just go for...so why not write and ask? Or post it on their FB wall*.

* BTW they've been known to read these boards from time to time too.

[Yami]

It's a pity that you can't create a poll on their Facebook page. That would be a pretty good indicator of the titles that people would most like to see.

I'm hoping they release some Preminger, they've said they're fans so that's a good sign. Laura? Advise & Consent?

[Arkadin]

The Swimmer ftw! that would be amazing.
(btw: I would have to believe the people at TT are reading this thread)
I mean c'mon. Other than perhaps Facebook, where else on the entire planet is their company being discussed as much?
uhh nowhere.

[canneryrowdoc]

They released Fright Night and sold out asap. You know what I want now? Fright Night 2. Make it happen.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by canneryrowdoc

They released Fright Night and sold out asap. You know what I want now? Fright Night 2. Make it happen.

It's right here.

[jaaguir]

I know it's never going to happen, but I'd love to get Capra's pre-Code movies on blu-ray (Ladies of leisure, American madness, The bitter tea of General Yen, Platinum blonde, and others), more than the latter more famous ones. (Well, we're getting Lady for a day from IMG in a couple of weeks, but that fell into a public-domain and that's why we're getting it).

Still with Sony, Twentieth century, Texas, Cover girl and Gilda come to mind right now.

From Fox, I'd love to get any movie starring Tyrone Power or Henry Fonda (In old Chicago, Jessie James, The mark of Zorro, Son of fury, Nightmare alley, Drums along the mohawk, The grapes of wrath, My darling Clementine, for example, but I would buy their lesser known movies too).
And then their film-noirs of the late '40s.

If anyone is in the mood for asking TT about any of these titles in their FB page, I'll be eternally grateful... I'm not creating an account just to pest them with questions, hehe. Thanks anyway.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by jaaguir

I know it's never going to happen, but I'd love to get Capra's pre-Code movies on blu-ray (Ladies of leisure, American madness, The bitter tea of General Yen, Platinum blonde, and others), more than the latter more famous ones.

I wouldn't necessarily think it is impossible, with the TT business model. I can even imagine Criterion trying to get the rights to those, at least for the blu-ray editions.

Sony might want to retain the "more famous" Capra for itself, but with the lesser-known stuff, I think licensing is a definite possibility.

I'm also in agreement with the poster who suggested the original 1950's "Death of a Salesman". I don't remember that movie ever having been released in any home video format that I know of.