Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[legendarymatt92]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

oh my god, the new movie isn't even written yet and this is turning into another thread about how Lucas ruined Star Wars.

folks, take a break. you have at least a year before we get any decent concrete news about the new movie. relax and let the anticipation build like it did before the internet was around. as for the movies already done, get over it. they are what they are for better or worse. if you don't like Episodes 1-3, don't watch them. if you don't like what he did to Episodes 4-6, watch the original versions(quit complaining about the poor quality of the original versions too -they are better than nothing and that is how they looked when released). and enough with bashing Lucas, it is getting tired. but please, look at this as an opportunity to take Star Wars in a new and exciting direction and quit complaining about things that have already happened. this is why I get fed up reading threads like this and quit getting involved- no news about the new movies, just people complaining once again about the old ones.

I am excited for the new films -- I cannot wait -- but that doesn't mean I should ignore all my criticisms of the old ones. I, and many others, only bring up the short-comings found in Star Wars because we don't want to see the new series go that way -- or, indeed, for Disney to make even more changes at the behest of Lucas, now a major shareholder in the company.

Plus, there's always the chance that Disney can release the UOT or restore some changes if they feel like the fans want it. The problem you have is that Star Wars and the problem the fans have with it is pretty much inseparable.

Anyway, I apologise if it seemed like I was Lucas bashing or complaining too much - I didn't want to give that impression.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by legendarymatt92

I am excited for the new films -- I cannot wait -- but that doesn't mean I should ignore all my criticisms of the old ones. I, and many others, only bring up the short-comings found in Star Wars because we don't want to see the new series go that way -- or, indeed, for Disney to make even more changes at the behest of Lucas, now a major shareholder in the company.

Also, since most of the optimism seems to be that Lucas is now working for a Big Boss parent company, which he wasn't from the beginning--
Like Marvel, Disney will keep "Quiet, Genius At Work" hands-off for a while, but with the PT, even they will presumably have their limits.

(Remember those "Flop Tests" we were talking about back during John Carter, about how to scientifically isolate the mistakes a movie makes, and determine whether it was its own fault?
George's got his own name on one of those, too: "The Willow Test: Did the director/producer have his own independent production, and therefore have no studio power over him to question indulgent budget decisions?"
For the first time in almost forty years, the answer will be "No". )

Plus, there's always the chance that Disney can release the UOT or restore some changes if they feel like the fans want it.

(No, they ca-aaan't....Just sayin', it would explain a lot of the Lucas quotes we've gotten so far... )

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by legendarymatt92

I am excited for the new films -- I cannot wait -- but that doesn't mean I should ignore all my criticisms of the old ones. I, and many others, only bring up the short-comings found in Star Wars because we don't want to see the new series go that way -- or, indeed, for Disney to make even more changes at the behest of Lucas, now a major shareholder in the company.

Plus, there's always the chance that Disney can release the UOT or restore some changes if they feel like the fans want it. The problem you have is that Star Wars and the problem the fans have with it is pretty much inseparable.

Anyway, I apologise if it seemed like I was Lucas bashing or complaining too much - I didn't want to give that impression.

In all honestly, regarding the UOT, out of all the changes/updates Lucas has done to it there really is only 2 that I hate.

1.) Greedo shooting first. I'm not so much mad at the idea of Greedo shooting first as I am at the poor execution of it. The scene just looks terrible and choppy. This one really should be restored back to it's original state.

2.) The "Jedi Rocks" Jabba scene. Horrible horrible song plus the CGI is sooooo cartoony and out dated. I would re-do all the creatures with updated CGI and I would re-instate the original music. That whole scene looks so out of place now.

Besides these 2 changes, I am fine with everything else and in many cases I am favor of. Things like the extended wampa scene, updating the emperor hologram in ESB, the extra shots of Tattooine, the blinking Ewok eyes, the updated sarlac, etc are all improvements IMO.

The one thing I wish they WOULD update are the freaking lightsabers so that they would be consistent throughout the entire saga! ANH has the thin "car antennae" looking sabers. Vader has the "pink" saber in ROTJ. Why don't they just digitally update the sabers throughout the the OT to match the way they look in the PT? To me that would be one of the EASIEST fixes to the entire saga! It's completely puzzling to me why this one goes ignored.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

In all honestly, regarding the UOT, out of all the changes/updates Lucas has done to it there really is only 2 that I hate.

1.) Greedo shooting first. I'm not so much mad at the idea of Greedo shooting first as I am at the poor execution of it. The scene just looks terrible and choppy. This one really should be restored back to it's original state.

2.) The "Jedi Rocks" Jabba scene. Horrible horrible song plus the CGI is sooooo cartoony and out dated. I would re-do all the creatures with updated CGI and I would re-instate the original music. That whole scene looks so out of place now.

Besides these 2 changes, I am fine with everything else and in many cases I am favor of. Things like the extended wampa scene, updating the emperor hologram in ESB, the extra shots of Tattooine, the blinking Ewok eyes, the updated sarlac, etc are all improvements IMO.

The one thing I wish they WOULD update are the freaking lightsabers so that they would be consistent throughout the entire saga! ANH has the thin "car antennae" looking sabers. Vader has the "pink" saber in ROTJ. Why don't they just digitally update the sabers throughout the the OT to match the way they look in the PT? To me that would be one of the EASIEST fixes to the entire saga! It's completely puzzling to me why this one goes ignored.

You forgot getting rid of Vader saying NO No NOOOOO at the end of Jedi as well as Hayden being added in should be restored to original actor.

[spawningblue]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

In all honestly, regarding the UOT, out of all the changes/updates Lucas has done to it there really is only 2 that I hate.

1.) Greedo shooting first. I'm not so much mad at the idea of Greedo shooting first as I am at the poor execution of it. The scene just looks terrible and choppy. This one really should be restored back to it's original state.

2.) The "Jedi Rocks" Jabba scene. Horrible horrible song plus the CGI is sooooo cartoony and out dated. I would re-do all the creatures with updated CGI and I would re-instate the original music. That whole scene looks so out of place now.

Besides these 2 changes, I am fine with everything else and in many cases I am favor of. Things like the extended wampa scene, updating the emperor hologram in ESB, the extra shots of Tattooine, the blinking Ewok eyes, the updated sarlac, etc are all improvements IMO.

The one thing I wish they WOULD update are the freaking lightsabers so that they would be consistent throughout the entire saga! ANH has the thin "car antennae" looking sabers. Vader has the "pink" saber in ROTJ. Why don't they just digitally update the sabers throughout the the OT to match the way they look in the PT? To me that would be one of the EASIEST fixes to the entire saga! It's completely puzzling to me why this one goes ignored.

Originally Posted by R3P0

You forgot getting rid of Vader saying NO No NOOOOO at the end of Jedi as well as Hayden being added in should be restored to original actor.

Yeah most of the changes don't bother me, but these ones do.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by R3P0

You forgot getting rid of Vader saying NO No NOOOOO at the end of Jedi as well as Hayden being added in should be restored to original actor.

Neither of those bother me like they do others. While I would PREFER Vader not to say "No Noooooo," it's not really any kind of deal breaker to me. Put it this way, if it had been there the whole time would anyone really care?

As for Hayden being added at the end, yeah well I kind of forgot about that one, LOL! I'm sort of on the fence with this one. I like the change in the sense that it's a very nice way to tie the OT back to the PT. Yet logistically it doesn't make sense when Obi Wan and Yoda's spirits are still old.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

Neither of those bother me like they do others. While I would PREFER Vader not to say "No Noooooo," it's not really any kind of deal breaker to me. Put it this way, if it had been there the whole time would anyone really care?

As for Hayden being added at the end, yeah well I kind of forgot about that one, LOL! I'm sort of on the fence with this one. I like the change in the sense that it's a very nice way to tie the OT back to the PT. Yet logistically it doesn't make sense when Obi Wan and Yoda's spirits are still old.

It makes sense to me. It in essence redeems Obi-Wan's "lie" in Episode IV. Doesn't bother me at all. Funny people think Anakin should appear as he did when died, which would imply he should be horribly burned and missing several limbs. I guess an aged torso floating around is more accurate.

Maybe they should have brought Hayden in and actually had him act that scene, but instead, they composited his head on Shaw's body, using footage from Episode III. *shrug* Of the more pronounced changes to the films, this one doesn't bother me. Could have been executed better, but the concept works for me.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by R3P0

You forgot getting rid of Vader saying NO No NOOOOO at the end of Jedi as well as Hayden being added in should be restored to original actor.

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

In all honestly, regarding the UOT, out of all the changes/updates Lucas has done to it there really is only 2 that I hate.

1.) Greedo shooting first. I'm not so much mad at the idea of Greedo shooting first as I am at the poor execution of it. The scene just looks terrible and choppy. This one really should be restored back to it's original state.

2.) The "Jedi Rocks" Jabba scene. Horrible horrible song plus the CGI is sooooo cartoony and out dated. I would re-do all the creatures with updated CGI and I would re-instate the original music. That whole scene looks so out of place now.

Besides these 2 changes, I am fine with everything else and in many cases I am favor of. Things like the extended wampa scene, updating the emperor hologram in ESB, the extra shots of Tattooine, the blinking Ewok eyes, the updated sarlac, etc are all improvements IMO.

The one thing I wish they WOULD update are the freaking lightsabers so that they would be consistent throughout the entire saga! ANH has the thin "car antennae" looking sabers. Vader has the "pink" saber in ROTJ. Why don't they just digitally update the sabers throughout the the OT to match the way they look in the PT? To me that would be one of the EASIEST fixes to the entire saga! It's completely puzzling to me why this one goes ignored.

I agree with you except as the other guy pointed out, Vader saying Noooooo in ESB doesnt work. Otherwsie, yeah, the changes are welcomed and are an improvement. Especially the Battle of Yavin in EP4 which is about 100x better than the UOT. Thats why I dont get all of the hatred.... we are talking about a few scenes here folks, not 90 minutes of the run time or whatever!

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

It makes sense to me. It in essence redeems Obi-Wan's "lie" in Episode IV. Doesn't bother me at all. Funny people think Anakin should appear as he did when died, which would imply he should be horribly burned and missing several limbs. I guess an aged torso floating around is more accurate.

Maybe they should have brought Hayden in and actually had him act that scene, but instead, they composited his head on Shaw's body, using footage from Episode III. *shrug* Of the more pronounced changes to the films, this one doesn't bother me. Could have been executed better, but the concept works for me.

I see what you mean. The whole "from a certain point of view" thing would make sense. However I still think it sucks that life long dedicated Jedi like Obi Wan and Yoda end up with elderly decrepid sprit forms and Anakin who did despicable things and led most of his life as evil gets to have a youthful spirit form. Then again, now that we know that Vader slayed younglings I don't think he ever should have been redeemable to be honest, but that's another argument!

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I see what you mean. The whole "from a certain point of view" thing would make sense. However I still think it sucks that life long dedicated Jedi like Obi Wan and Yoda end up with elderly decrepid sprit forms and Anakin who did despicable things and led most of his life as evil gets to have a youthful spirit form. Then again, now that we know that Vader slayed younglings I don't think he ever should have been redeemable to be honest, but that's another argument!

HUGE difference between redemption, and atonement. I don't think Anakin redeems himself, I think he atones. Big difference.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

I agree with you except as the other guy pointed out, Vader saying Noooooo in ESB doesnt work. Otherwsie, yeah, the changes are welcomed and are an improvement. Especially the Battle of Yavin in EP4 which is about 100x better than the UOT. Thats why I dont get all of the hatred.... we are talking about a few scenes here folks, not 90 minutes of the run time or whatever!

I still stand by my opinion that if Vader saying "Nooo" at the end of ROTJ had always been there, no one would have ever questioned it. It's not THAT bad. In my opinion, the new Ric Flair "Whooooooo" Krait Dragon call that Obi Wan does in ANH sounds worse than the "No's" Vader says at the end of ROTJ!

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

HUGE difference between redemption, and atonement. I don't think Anakin redeems himself, I think he atones. Big difference.

IMO it wasn't enough. There would be no measurable antonement acceptable for what he did! The killing of younglings went too far IMO.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

IMO it wasn't enough. There would be no measurable antonement acceptable for what he did! The killing of younglings went too far IMO.

So he could stand by and watch a planet explode, but killing 12-15 kids is just too much?

I think that was Obi-Wan's point. Once he became Vader, Anakin was gone. And you're right, Vader's crimes are so monstrous, giving his own life seems small in comparison, but that's why there is a spiritual underpinning to Star Wars, and Anakin's "return" is what gives the last film its title.

[500_Days_of_Night]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I still stand by my opinion that if Vader saying "Nooo" at the end of ROTJ had always been there, no one would have ever questioned it. It's not THAT bad. In my opinion, the new Ric Flair "Whooooooo" Krait Dragon call that Obi Wan does in ANH sounds worse than the "No's" Vader says at the end of ROTJ!

I seriously LOL'd reading that. That's probably one change that I really don't like. It made sense changing Boba Fett's voice and changing the Emperor to the ACTUAL Emperor in ESB and I can handle blinking Ewoks. But hearing that awful noise and seeing Sand People scatter like roaches irked me. It was fine just the way it was before.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by legendarymatt92

I am excited for the new films -- I cannot wait -- but that doesn't mean I should ignore all my criticisms of the old ones. I, and many others, only bring up the short-comings found in Star Wars because we don't want to see the new series go that way -- or, indeed, for Disney to make even more changes at the behest of Lucas, now a major shareholder in the company.

Plus, there's always the chance that Disney can release the UOT or restore some changes if they feel like the fans want it. The problem you have is that Star Wars and the problem the fans have with it is pretty much inseparable.

Anyway, I apologise if it seemed like I was Lucas bashing or complaining too much - I didn't want to give that impression.

but that is my point - this thread has nothing to do with the old movies and what Lucas did with them, it is about Disney and the new movies. Yet it seems no matter what the thread is about, people start the Lucas bashing. i swear, you could have a thread about the Star Wars USB flash drives and someone would complain that there is one of JarJar and that he ruined Star Wars. I don't agree with everything that he did either but people need to discuss things in the right place. if you want to talk about what you don't like about the original movies, or what you hope Disney will do, fine - just don't do it here. i don't want to single you out because there are a lot of people who do it but it is very annoying to come into a thread like this and have people complaining about stuff based off of a 30 year old picture that has nothing to do with the new movies being made.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

but that is my point - this thread has nothing to do with the old movies and what Lucas did with them, it is about Disney and the new movies. Yet it seems no matter what the thread is about, people start the Lucas bashing. i swear, you could have a thread about the Star Wars USB flash drives and someone would complain that there is one of JarJar and that he ruined Star Wars. I don't agree with everything that he did either but people need to discuss things in the right place. if you want to talk about what you don't like about the original movies, or what you hope Disney will do, fine - just don't do it here. i don't want to single you out because there are a lot of people who do it but it is very annoying to come into a thread like this and have people complaining about stuff based off of a 30 year old picture that has nothing to do with the new movies being made.

The throughline is what Disney might do with future re-releases of the six films, vis a vis the multiple versions that now exist.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

...(quit complaining about the poor quality of the original versions too -they are better than nothing and that is how they looked when released).

I can't be reading this right.

Are you seriously suggesting the quality of the standard definition home video releases was more or less on par with the quality of the original theatrical releases?

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

So he could stand by and watch a planet explode, but killing 12-15 kids is just too much?

I think that was Obi-Wan's point. Once he became Vader, Anakin was gone. And you're right, Vader's crimes are so monstrous, giving his own life seems small in comparison, but that's why there is a spiritual underpinning to Star Wars, and Anakin's "return" is what gives the last film its title.

I think Vader should've never been made an "atoned" character in the first place. If Lucas wanted Vader to kill the emperor and bring balance back to the force then he should've sent both of them over the ledge to plummet to their deaths. I wouldn't have had the whole scene at the end with Luke. To me, Vader killing the emperor in order to save his only son is not any kind of atonement. Plenty of evil people would still fight to protect their own flesh and blood. The whole "there's still good in him" should have never even entered into it. Anakin could have still fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance back to the force while still dying an evil SOB!

[The Apocalypse]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

The throughline is what Disney might do with future re-releases of the six films, vis a vis the multiple versions that now exist.

Well, with the current Saga, the ball is still in FOX's court, at least until 2020.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I think Vader should've never been made an "atoned" character in the first place. If Lucas wanted Vader to kill the emperor and bring balance back to the force then he should've sent both of them over the ledge to plummet to their deaths. I wouldn't have had the whole scene at the end with Luke. To me, Vader killing the emperor in order to save his only son is not any kind of atonement. Plenty of evil people would still fight to protect their own flesh and blood. The whole "there's still good in him" should have never even entered into it. Anakin could have still fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance back to the force while still dying an evil SOB!

But - Star Wars is a story about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Redemption implies a "correction" of ones wrongdoings or misfortunes. Thats why it happens the way it does. I can see what you are saying but thats kind of story-arc isnt for Star Wars. No go deal.