When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[jopemoro]

Originally Posted by Grubert

These articles show very disparate views of the current situation. I have looked at the main areas of concern.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

That is a serious problem...but not our problem. If they want to deprive themselves from HDM because of their hate for Blu-Ray, that is in no way my problem and I don't think we need them on board.

The bashing will stop eventually...most likely a few months after all the HD DVD hardware is gone and the holdouts realize that they are only short-changing themselves by not getting behind Blu-Ray, because I know I am going to be enjoying Blu-Ray while they are stuck with SD or low quality downloads.

[Spankey]

The HD DVD owners as a whole have acted far worse that Blu-ray folks (regarding the type of people you mentioned). I guess you haven't been reading AVS, HDD, or HTF the last two years.

I would also add, that this site wouldn't exist and be as popular as it has become if it weren't for the disgusting behavior of HD-DVD biased mods at HTF, AVS, HDD, etc.

[CassilineKnight]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

The HD DVD owners as a whole have acted far worse that Blu-ray folks (regarding the type of people you mentioned). I guess you haven't been reading AVS, HDD, or HTF the last two years.

The fact you still have people clinging to HD DVD and now thinking "super upscaling" is the new answer just goes to show the mentality of these people.

I've been reading Engadget for a long time. However I started reading AVS and this site last year around August.

So I disagree with you. Yes there are some nutjobs in the HD DVD camp (Truth Teller and nfinity for one over at Engadget) but overall I'd have to say that most HD DVD owners that I've come into contact with have been by far the more rational and calm/cool/collected HD enthusiast I've met.

Anyways like I said it doesn't matter to me much. I've made my decision and I'm comfortable with it.

I just think that it will be a lot harder for some people to jump on Bluray because of the war itself and the ugly stuff that was hurled back and forth between the 2 camps. Esxpeically Bluray.

[CassilineKnight]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

That is a serious problem...but not our problem. If they want to deprive themselves from HDM because of their hate for Blu-Ray, that is in no way my problem and I don't think we need them on board.

The bashing will stop eventually...most likely a few months after all the HD DVD hardware is gone and the holdouts realize that they are only short-changing themselves by not getting behind Blu-Ray, because I know I am going to be enjoying Blu-Ray while they are stuck with SD or low quality downloads.

I think it is our problem...cuz basically it increases the possiblity that Bluray remains a niche market (which I don't want). Think about how much larger Bluray could be if HD DVD owners joined the format.

I'd rather have them working with us rather than against us.

[Spankey]

Perhaps you can post some examples of the ugly stuff hurled by Blu-ray supporters. We have a litany of junk spewed by HD-DVD and none of it was ever accurate. Not sure why you are here other than to stir the pot..

[TheRealBob]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

[ ... ]

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Amen.

For the record, when I went high-def, I did some research and decided to go with Blu-ray, and I never looked back. I do not own an HD DVD player or any HD DVD movies. So I'm coming at this from a 100% Blu angle.

I must a lot of what goes on in this forum reflects very poorly on Blu-ray.

People find a thread on another site where HD DVD owners are licking their wounds and, yes, expressing a little bitterness, and they drag it into this forum so everyone can laugh about how stupid and idiotic "DUD" owners are. And the forum doesn't disappoint, with usually 50-100 messages heaping scorn on the "HD DED" owners who were foolish enough to get tricked by "To-shit-ba" so now they're getting their just desserts.

Threads are started over and over again about how Paramount, Dreamworks, and Universal are not welcome back unless they are made to pay dearly for their past choices. Others say they're never welcome back, period. People post ridiculous rants demanding that their CEOs be fired before they can join the BDA. That's just pathetic.

Someone innocently posts a question asking if there will be any incentives for HD DVD owners to switch to BD, and the bile that flows forth in response is just amazing. Instead of a simple "no, that probably won't happen", it's page after page of how these moronic HD DUD owners are getting what they deserve, they are mostly idiots who only want cheap stuff, so who cares about them anyway.

Prominent former HD DVD supporters post on other forums how they are backing Blu now that the format war is over, and their posts are copied here so everyone can laugh about how it took them long enough to see the light, who wants them now anyway, they're just liars that can never be trusted again.

I have no idea why people want to fan the flames of a format war that is over. We should stop the pointless mocking of HD DVD people and instead welcome them with open arms if they show interest in coming to Blu-ray. Maybe then they will become Blu-ray supporters instead of hating Blu-ray so much they start advocating for downloads or something else that is mostly vaporware but at least isn't associated with people that seem dedicated to hating them.

Blu-ray has won. Let's start being gracious winners.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by TheRealBob

People find a thread on another site where HD DVD owners are licking their wounds and, yes, expressing a little bitterness, and they drag it into this forum so everyone can laugh about how stupid and idiotic "DUD" owners are.

We aren't talking about a thread here (which would be stuff for the "Rant thread" over in the off-topic section). Here we see that the administrators of a site, the week after Blu-ray won (and also the week after HMM gave space to the editors of thedigitalbits.com and hollywoodinhidef.com) submit an editorial for publication in the following issue and rain on Blu-ray's parade:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...php?startid=12

[CassilineKnight]

Originally Posted by Spankey

Perhaps you can post some examples of the ugly stuff hurled by Blu-ray supporters. We have a litany of junk spewed by HD-DVD and none of it was ever accurate. Not sure why you are here other than to stir the pot..

Are you kidding me?

Lol thats just another example of the kinda crap that some Bluray owners/supporters say that just shows me how out of touch of reality some people are.

The original poster asked a question. All I did was give a fair honest answer. I'm not trying to "stir" anything...

But hey if you're that paranoid about Bluray the go ahead and say whatever you want.

I'm Blruay owner/supporter now and I will always be one unless something terrible happens and the BDA does something to screw ALL of us over. I highly doubt that will happen but if it did then I don't see why I would continue to support a format that is clearly not playing fair.

Really man just because someone questions Bluray doesn't mean that they're anti BD.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

Yes there are some nutjobs in the HD DVD camp (Truth Teller and nfinity for one over at Engadget) but overall I'd have to say that most HD DVD owners that I've come into contact with have been by far the more rational and calm/cool/collected HD enthusiast I've met.

Then they should be behind Blu-Ray now if they are truly HDM enthusiasts. I think the holds outs are in the minority not the majority like your initial post suggested...

[Spankey]

You weren't questioning Blu-ray. You were questioning Blu-ray supporters who you claimed threw more crap at HD-DVD supporters. Blu-ray wasn't and still isn't perfect. Instead of ways to suggesting it get better you would prefer Blu-ray supporters make nice with those who are still trashing Blu-ray. The HTF article was a hit piece by "the staff". A perfect example of how HD-DVD supporters are still on the attack.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

I think it is our problem...cuz basically it increases the possiblity that Bluray remains a niche market (which I don't want). Think about how much larger Bluray could be if HD DVD owners joined the format.

I'd rather have them working with us rather than against us.

See my previous post as to why I don't think we need them (I see them in the minority, not the majority).

[JTK]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

I definitely disagree with you wholeheartedly to say the least.

[The Big Blue]

You know the thing that pissed me off the most throughtout this entire bs format war? HD DVD supporters' bogus claims of superior manners and civility. Please. The excrement was flying from proponents on both sides in equal amounts.

It's over.

It's amazing to me that at this point in time some people still feel this need to point the accusatory finger and claim the moral high-ground all the while wallowing in self-pity.

Maturity indeed.

[dialog_gvf]

Another great post by our resident pundit!

On the surface it makes absolutely no sense that these enthusiast sites are so unenthusiastic, especially considering how excited they were spending MORE for HD DVD hardware (when released) and the same for software.

Originally Posted by HTF

For now the format’s future is still uncertain, and the eyes of many will be closely scrutinizing its direction over the coming months. Any wrong step could still see it consigned to the scrap heap of dead formats that have tried valiantly and failed. Any doubts? Just ask Toshiba.

HD DVD certainly has been. But, when we see this stuff, we are forced to ask: Where were you 1-2 years ago? Why all of the sudden with the Road Warrior crap done, and a smooth road ahead, are you all so damn pessimistic?

To me this resonates as sour grapes. A bunch of people who put their reps on the line with HD DVD, lost, and are now determined to see Blu-ray fail to prove them right for not backing it.

It's all petty and traitorous to the A/V cause, and the mission of their own sites. And they push this crap at their further peril.

Ah well, I guess we'll all have to go to blu-ray.com huh?

Gary

[Spankey]

To me is resonates as sour grapes. A bunch of people who put their reps on the line with HD DVD, lost, and are now determined to see Blu-ray fail to prove them right for not backing it.

That's EXACTLY what this is about. No If's, And's, or But's..

[SquidPuppet]

I have very little concern about Blu's eventual success. Not because I am arrogant or a rabid fan, but because it is (in my view) a natural evolutionary cycle.

As a child we had a Black and white CRT with no remotes and rabbit ear antenna and a "tuning" dial on the TV that we had to adjust every time we changed a channel. THATS ALL THERE WAS.

I vividly remember when a neighbor purchased one of thos "new" "big" color TVs. It was summer and the whole neighborhood was there, packed in there living room watching the Olympics. The swimming pool was BLUE, not grey....a jawdropping experience for all. We all wanted one right then, but my folks couldnt afford one so they were not "early adopters" due to financial constraints. Prices came down and we got one. Thats the way it works. People (in general) want better things and aquire them when it is feasable for them.

Radio, B&W TV, Color TV, VHS, DVD, Surround Sound, HD TVs, HD Format(BluRay), HD Audio.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems obvious.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Spankey

That's EXACTLY what this is about. No If's, And's, or But's..

Alternatively, people who were paid to pretend to support HD DVD are now being paid to oppose BD in favor of downloads. . .

[jason_grumpy]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Oooh.. I think we've got a little revisionist history going on Cassi. Maybe in the past few months after Jan 5th -- you betcha, there are a lot of Blu owners coming out of the woodwork that I'd rather not see post. Prior to that however...

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

Personally, I don't see the big issue with Sony being involved in anything. Blind hatred towards one company (while another doing the same thing is ok) simply is not in the best interests of anyone -- especially in regards to technology improvements. The arguments placed towards Sony could easily be placed on any company -- including Toshiba. I know of absolutely no company that is not furthering it's own agenda in anyway it can. Sony makes great products, and Sony makes poor products. This bias runs deep, and Sony could make Zero-point energy extractors and still people would hate them.

Second, this is where revisionist history is playing a part. HD DVD viral marketers and ardent supporters ran rampant in various on line forums smashing Blu-Ray and it's supporters by telling outright lies, deceit, or trying to justify the format because of price alone. I personally witnessed people like rdjam have free run of so called neutral sites, spewing propaganda and absolute lies about both formats well into late 2007. Amir was the king of this, absolutely spewing mass amounts of unchecked MS slanted bullshit with nearly every post he placed on AVS. HD DVD shortcomings brought up were deflected onto the shortcomings of Blu if allowed to remain. Any neutral owner or Blu-ray only backers when questioning these types of folks were banned, or the thread/post were simply deleted never to be seen again. I'm leaving out a LOT posters out of this, as there were certainly more than these two. I've seen valid posters getting the true information out, banned without recourse because a mod owns a HD DVD machine and refused to see the truth for what it was.

On other forums, dozens of pro Blu-Ray news threads were deleted, locked, and posters suspended/banned outright. "Good News" for HD DVD was left open and free with them all cheering the death of Blu Ray in multiple threads/posts. Other fantastic posts such as Amazon sales rankings, HD DVD is making a perpetual comeback, yield's on BD50, gamers don't buy movies, BD50 is science fiction, etc etc remained opened and unchecked (even endorsed by said moderation). This pattern repeated even after the WB news on some forums.

The attitude today on these forums is still Blu-Ray Bad -- Everything else Good. It has nothing to do with Blu-Ray supporters at all, but personal bias or paychecks of those running said websites.

People like Kosty or what not, are far and in between. Hard core backers at first, then calling for unification after the war. Honestly they should have been doing this LONG before WB announced it's Blu intentions. They should have been evaluating the situation and recognizing the future mid 2007.

Bill Hunt did the evaluation, and called it correctly. Blu Ray had the greater chance to win, and sure enough it did win. This is what the enthusiasts like Bill should have done. To this day, I still see ardent HD DVD backers bashing him and substituting characters out of his name for personal attacks.

These same people should have been the enthusiasts pushing for one format at the start. They also should have been pushing for HD DVD to achieve higher and better specs, and improvement in quality if they were serious about HD DVD and the best product. Final specs or prices be dammed. They failed us in this regard, and got caught up in the lies and cheap hardware prices of HD DVD hardware. They wanted a hobbled technology (already showing it's limitations the first year into it's lifespan) to be the HDM format of choice for 10 years -- all because it was $100 cheaper. This is why you hear 'good enough' type quips against HD DVD from Blu backers. All of these which become very mute points with each passing day. Blu-Ray did listen to their points however, and improved the interactivity portion to well above HD DVD specification. Spec wise, profile 2.0 is far and above anything that HD DVD could have ever offered.

I'd say a little ripping to the other side IS justifiable -- especially those that were belittled, suspended, or banned for making the right choice and placed facts above fanboism in the face of extreme bias towards the red.

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

It's a good format, and is certainly the best for HDM. It offers superior PQ and AQ above all other formats (including the beloved HD DVD). Threats such as DDL, I do dismiss. The technical aspirations of said product will not reach fruition during Blu's products life cycle. Already we are 10 years into DVD's life, and DVD downloads are barely a blip on the radar screen. Even so, it's much different downloading a DVD to a 17" in monitor, than HD to a 50+ inch monitor.

There's a lot of reasons behind that, mainly the public. I'm sorry but the majority of people I deal with at work can *barely* turn on a computer. They do know how to run a DVD player though. Simple, easy, effective. They have no idea what download speeds are, or even the difference between 10 or 100 mbps.

Those that DO download and have the knowledge have more than enough bandwidth to not only download a DDL file, but also a pirate said movie with the same (or even better quality). Downloads have a stigma on them that they are FREE. It's going to be hard to justify paying $5 for a movie for a one time viewing, when anyone with the bandwidth can download it in the same time for free -- with unlimited viewing. This is DDL's greatest hurdle, and honestly I don't think they'll ever surpass it even if the infrastructure is put into place.

The biggest threat for now is that the public has to be convinced that Blu Ray is truly 6x better in picture quality than DVD. Audio quality is a key point to drive home too. Convince the public that it's worth the investment, and they will buy it.

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

Looking at the PS3 forums about Blu-ray in mid 2007 -- honestly the majority of PS3 owners didn't care and looked at it as a frill. It was a ho-hum attitude towards it, with the majority of the PS3 fanbase not caring. If anything, it centers down to the Xbox vs PS3 argument in forums, and is now just a talking point in favor of the PS3. I wouldn't blame it directly on the PS3 fanbase. I'd say the most problematic people are band waggoners that jumped on board shortly after WB that are causing 'problems'.

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

As on topic, I agree and disagree. Some enthusiast's ARE showing enthusiasm. The key players from year's past -- are not. Bill Hunt obviously did. Others? eh, not so much. They're still stuck in the Everything is better than Blu-Ray war. Grubert's post clearly shows this -- but then again I expected this very outcome. ANYTHING but Blu-Ray. A lot of it is psychological, trying to justify their losses. They are the type of folks that have a 'no-sell' philosophy when dealing with the stock market. A good investor knows when to cut his losses short, a bad one rides it all the way to the bottom.

Those that claim they will never buy Blu-ray really didn't matter in the HDM war to begin with. If anything, they are statistics of a person who bought into a now obsolete format. They got into the COST of HD DVD -- not for HDM. I've seen countless posts that say HD DVD is better simply because it was $100 cheaper. I can't see them evangelizing HDM in general. It's certainly a handful of people, and with about 500K investing in HD DVD. I don't think it's a critical failure.

Those that are ardent supporters of HD DVD? They are lost causes. The facts presented to them never changed anything. Toshiba giving up and discontinuing still is not enough. They truly believe HD DVD will make a comeback. The lovers of HDM became neutral or Blu-only on or about Jan 5th. The rest of the hold outs that loved HD DVD only gave in on Valentines day week. Anyone remaining now is not worth to waste time on.

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...[/FONT]

I believe Profile 2.0 players (and 1.1 for that matter) are far overhyped. The only benefit I see for 2.0 player's is the Ethernet connection checking for updated firmware automatically (much like the PS3 does). Web connectivity was an HD DVD talking point -- and something I've already been doing for YEARS on my PC and Firefox.

[TheRealBob]

Originally Posted by Grubert

We aren't talking about a thread here (which would be stuff for the "Rant thread" over in the off-topic section).

I'll talk about whatever I want to when I'm hijacking your thread.

But, seriously, I was responding to that post, not your original post, which I mostly agree with.

Originally Posted by Grubert

Here we see that the administrators of a site, the week after Blu-ray won (and also the week after HMM gave space to the editors of thedigitalbits.com and hollywoodinhidef.com) submit an editorial for publication in the following issue and rain on Blu-ray's parade:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...php?startid=12

Yep.

I do think the issues are tied together. I think there was a lot of bitterness in this war and some of the sour grapes are spilling over into irrational anti-Blu-ray sentiment.

I think a lot of these analysts were rooting for HD DVD, and they got as polarized as a lot of other people did, so now that their favorite lost they're talking up vaporware downloads as the next big thing.

I think the sooner we get to a new reality where BD is just simply the high-def successor to DVD, the sooner some people are going to take a hard look at BD vs. downloads and realize that BD has much more to offer. I think the bitterness that still rages on the Blu-ray side is slowing the transition to that new era.