4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

I’m informed that Jim has spoken in order to share his side of the situation with RED followers and now the thread is on fire!... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...Patent-lawsuit

From the above, if indeed this goes to trial, I’m wondering if the RED litigation team will play the *U.S. jobs* card to gain empathy from the jury after trying to simplify the highly technical aspects of in-camera raw compression (and the originality/purposed patent infringement aspect thereof) to a typical seated jury rather than an arbitration panel of knowledgeable experts.

The tactics begin.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’m informed that Jim has spoken in order to share his side of the situation with RED followers and now the thread is on fire!... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...Patent-lawsuit

From the above, if indeed this goes to trial, I’m wondering if the RED litigation team will play the *U.S. jobs* card to gain empathy from the jury after trying to simplify the highly technical aspects of in-camera raw compression (and the originality/purposed patent infringement aspect thereof) to a typical seated jury rather than an arbitration panel of knowledgeable experts.

The tactics begin.

Penton if I read that correctly it seems like even the people in that thread are questioning the lawsuit as well. It looks like Jim is saying they stole something called REDCODE RAW which if I read correctly is there compression code for taking the images and storing them on the camera. He has not answered if Sony stole the idea for compressed video on the camera or the code itself. It was also stated that the price of the cameras dropped days before Sony shipped the first unit, and others are saying Sonys camera is superior to the Red camera in terms of the video on the unit. To me it seems if Sony only mimicked the idea of compressed video on the camera they are doing what other companies before them have done, and RED would have no leg to stand on. However if they stole actual source code then yes RED would have a valid lawsuit.

[Penton-Man]

^ Source code or algorithm, for sure.

First let me just express my personal sentiments on the major players involved so that people don’t get the impression that I have some sort of biased conflict of interest for the matter at hand.

I really admire Jim, heck, if only for the fact that he named his company (Oakley) after his dog places him in a special place in my heart . But, more objectively, he is one of the most innovative thinkers and do-ers (arguably thee most innovative), whom I know of and if Congress were populated by all Jim Jannards we would be a FAR better country for it.

But, that does not exactly make him an angel, for instance….http://www.boliven.com/legal_proceed...v-05841-LAP?q=

And if I correctly recall, after the Oakley vs Nike settlement was announced, Oakley shares fell and Nike shares rose….if that serves as an indication of who Wall Street believed that settlement was in favor of.

On the other hand, as we’ve seen, upper management at one Sony division can also be fast and free with the truth…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...lt#post6782166

To answer your question, I don’t exactly know what specifically RED is accusing Sony of infringing upon as Jim’s comments on that thread are just too vague as to applicability. My feeling is that he is *stretching* just because I know the mindset of the engineers at Sony’s Atsugi Tech Center for I think they would sooner run around the parking lot naked in broad daylight rather than copy or infringe upon something which was a credible patent from RED. Patent infringement legal implications aside, it is a pride thing with them.

[vargo]

I don't think it relates specifically to REDCODE RAW. (not that there is anything particularly innovative about that anyway).

No, it seems to relate to any video camera that takes RAW sensor data and saves it in a compressed form. Any compressed form.

Of course that is something fundamental to digital video cameras and has been in use before any RED products existed. But it appears they were granted a patent for this concept.

[Penton-Man]

Agreed.
I think RED is claiming that compression of RAW at 2K and 23fps/above is somehow theirs alone…i.e. we patented the *idea*.

When, the fact of the matter, (for those not following) is that compressed RAW is something ALL professional digital cameras do these days – especially still cameras. Not to mention the fact that Redcode's compression is largely based on JPEG2000, which is an open format….and the fact that other companies “invented” the recording of RAW sensor information long before RED did.

If that’s all there is to the allegations…and, unless RED tells us or implies with specifics that there is indeed something more unique involved here, then I think that any rational person would admit that this case should be ‘dismissed with prejudice’…just like the last case was in which RED sued the camera manufacturer Ari, and an individual -
http://ia700800.us.archive.org/5/ite...20148.47.0.pdf

Like I said above, based upon what I’ve read from Jim on that thread, I think RED is really *reaching* with this lawsuit and I suspect that it’s no coincidence that the filling coincides with the F55’s release which is particularly competitive to RED.

Anyway, I’ll miss future fireworks on this issue as I’ll be gone most of all next week to HPA. However, the pluses and minuses of thee PS event (alluded to here…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...de#post7056674 ), should keep consumer folks engaged in the meantime.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

When, the fact of the matter, (for those not following) is that compressed RAW is something ALL professional digital cameras do these days – especially still cameras. Not to mention the fact that Redcode's compression is largely based on JPEG2000, which is an open format….and the fact that other companies “invented” the recording of RAW sensor information long before RED did.

It's the new Apple-based approach to competition: if you can't out innovate - you ligitate. Look at the patent-war against Samsung and the subsequent BS ruling against them. Now mind you the same case was thrown out everywhere but the USA.
Looks to me like RED is trying to do the same thing against Sony.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It's the new Apple-based approach to competition: if you can't out innovate - you ligitate. Look at the patent-war against Samsung and the subsequent BS ruling against them. Now mind you the same case was thrown out everywhere but the USA.
Looks to me like RED is trying to do the same thing against Sony.

It is not just red or Apple, the wole patent process has become a joke. There are companies that do just that (hold patents for mundane stuff that are ridiculous and then sew anybody that builds anything and make money off of it.

Don't get me wrong I think royalties help innovate the world and patents are needed but you look at some of them and it is just ridiculous.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Penton if I read that correctly it seems like even the people in that thread are questioning the lawsuit as well....

I’m told that Mark Haflich (of AVS) has chimed in over there. The RED fanatics had better watch their step if they decide to step on his toes, for from my Marylander days, I know of Mark…he’s a little guy with a lot of fire in his belly, a well respected bloke formerly from the Department of Justice. I think AVSers know him as a really stand-up consumer electronics dealer (in Sony and such) offering great prices and even greater customer service.

Good man….and March Madness FAN-atic.

P.S.
I’ll tell you one thing, the discussion of this filling sure has taken the focus off the promises made about their 4K distribution platform, i.e. ODEMAX.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

It is not just red or Apple, the wole patent process has become a joke. There are companies that do just that (hold patents for mundane stuff that are ridiculous and then sew anybody that builds anything and make money off of it.

Don't get me wrong I think royalties help innovate the world and patents are needed but you look at some of them and it is just ridiculous.

Quite so.

It’s got me wondering, I mean if you can do something as broad as patenting RAW image acquisition at resolutions > HD, then perhaps some guy can still patent 4K post production of motion pictures. I mean, despite that in 2004, Spider-Man 2 became the first major feature to undergo a DI maintained on a 4K data path all the way through the process at Efilm, maybe it’s not too late for someone to patent 4K DI’s…as long as you give kudos (recognition as prior art) to entities like Efilm,, etc.

And if that’s too late for the patent purveyors to bestow a *patent*, then I guess a company could always scan a film in 6K or 8K, quickly build a 6K DI pipeline and run the thing through a prototype 6K projector and then apply for a 6K post production pipeline/exhibition patent …because you know, eventually, someday we’ll all be watching 6K rez at our local Multiplexes.

Lord help us to the ramifications of all of this nonsense as it has the true potential to stifle further development and competitiveness.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Quite so.

It’s got me wondering, I mean if you can do something as broad as patenting RAW image acquisition at resolutions > HD, then perhaps some guy can still patent 4K post production of motion pictures. I mean, despite that in 2004, Spider-Man 2 became the first major feature to undergo a DI maintained on a 4K data path all the way through the process at Efilm, maybe it’s not too late for someone to patent 4K DI’s…as long as you give kudos (recognition as prior art) to entities like Efilm,, etc.

And if that’s too late for the patent purveyors to bestow a *patent*, then I guess a company could always scan a film in 6K or 8K, quickly build a 6K DI pipeline and run the thing through a prototype 6K projector and then apply for a 6K post production pipeline/exhibition patent …because you know, eventually, someday we’ll all be watching 6K rez at our local Multiplexes.

Lord help us to the ramifications of all of this nonsense as it has the true potential to stifle further development and competitiveness.

Had no idea Spider-Man 2 was done in that regard. The problem I see with this is its either 1 of 2 things, the apple approach, which if it is I hope to god Sony counter sues the hell out of this guy for costs and defamation. Or 2 He has a legitimate complaint, which if it is, I hope to god this guy gets what he deserves from Sony. Unfortunately due to pending litigation i do not think it would be wise for him to publicly say what he has on Sony. Which is unfortunate because that is the only thing that is going to stop the speculation.

I am all for protecting your investment, what I am not for is using said investment to rape the consumer hand over foot for every dollar we have. Yes this is a capitalist market and the idea is to make money but when is enough really enough. Lets take the price of TV for instance, because of the cost of actors, crew, equipment etc., the cost of making a movie is roughly 35-40 million dollars. That is ridiculous. I mean why in gods name do these actors and actresses or sports stars for that matter deserve the money they get. If we worried more about paying our teachers the salaries they deserve, over these people then this country would be far better off.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...next week to HPA.

Sad day for my wife and I this morning while packing up, for this is the first time in years that the little fella, see pics - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...le#post6731464

Won’t be accompanying us …https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...el#post4430211
to the desert Tech retreat.

Man, I’m still trying to work through this loss. I’ll try to get more coldly technical now with the remainder of my forum contributions this morning before we hit the road. Bear with me.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...and I suspect that it’s no coincidence that the filling coincides with the F55’s release which is particularly competitive to RED.

For example, nothing like a single £500,000 deal- http://www.tvbeurope.com/theworkflow...k-sony-cameras

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by R3P0

I am all for protecting your investment, what I am not for is using said investment to rape the consumer hand over foot for every dollar we have. Yes this is a capitalist market and the idea is to make money but when is enough really enough....

http://www.patentbolt.com/2013/02/so...nd-gaming.html

Perhaps this inventor ^ should have also filed a patent, or included in the wording of the patent a statement to the effect that, in essence, he wanted to patent *the concept* of Universal active shutter 3D glasses…
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...130027526.PGNR.

if XPAND hasn’t already *patented* that idea with these…. http://www.xpand.me/products/universal-3d-glasses-x103/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Had no idea Spider-Man 2 was done in that regard. The problem I see with this is its either 1 of 2 things, the apple approach, which if it is I hope to god Sony counter sues the hell out of this guy for costs and defamation. Or 2 He has a legitimate complaint, which if it is, I hope to god this guy gets what he deserves from Sony. Unfortunately due to pending litigation i do not think it would be wise for him to publicly say what he has on Sony...

Well, that’s one of the reasons why I admire Jim….because I feel that he sees 10 steps ahead of the ‘normal’ individual and in his mind, he already assessed the risk vs. reward for commenting upon the lawsuit publically. In other words, he felt that the ‘public relations effect’ outweighed any legal consequences related to public exposure.

From what I’ve read on that thread, I am not impressed with the merit of the lawsuit. However, in cases in which I am wrong….when I actually am wrong, I do not hesitate to bring that to light, like so….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ry#post7128877

So, if there turns out to be something more behind this, than has been presented so far, I will be the first to admit I was wrong about the situation from the get-go. For geeks interested in all things ‘4K’, it would be best for this to go to trial so there is a public record but, I think that SONY will be more inclined to pursue the least expensive solution possible, i.e. settle, even if they are 100% right and essentially being prosecuted unfairly.

[saprano]

AVS has been invited to Sony's PS4 announcement tomorrow-

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458706/av...bruary-20-2013

Why wasn't this site invited?

And i'm guessing since a HT site was invited there's going to be HT related announcements. 4K?

[Esox50]

Penton-Man,

Been a long time. With today's Game of Thrones Blu-Ray release, I got to wondering given how stupendous these discs look. Is this show shot in 4K (for an eventual release)? I looked up and saw they used ARRI Alexa camera for season 2. I went to the website, and it looks like it does 2K & 4K, so I'm unsure.

For season 1, other than the crypt scene which was shot on film, How did they shoot season 1?

Thanks,
Esox

[PeterTHX]

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...s_Coverage.php

More 4K material coming, as well as a FCC permission for a station out east to start broadcasting a UHD signal.

[Steedeel]

As I understand it, the PS4 will just play standard bluray. Won't this affect adoption of any potential 4k disc format?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

As I understand it, the PS4 will just play standard bluray. Won't this affect adoption of any potential 4k disc format?

Well, with no 4k format standard and the PS4 being targeted for fall 2013 release I don't think it will be a factor. The XBOX 360's inability to play Blu-ray didn't affect its sales or adoption of the format as a whole IMO.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well, with no 4k format standard and the PS4 being targeted for fall 2013 release I don't think it will be a factor. The XBOX 360's inability to play Blu-ray didn't affect its sales or adoption of the format as a whole IMO.

We shall see.