Because Blu-Ray will "obviously" be replaced rapidly by streaming only...

[Steedeel]

Same.

[blonde_devil]

I personally like a physical copy of most things simple because it means I will always have it. I am very careful with my dvd/bluray discs so they don't get scratched up so in theory, they should outlast me. I like streaming because it does give me a greater variety of movies and I don't need to go buy them but I am not getting rid of movies I own just because netflix has them. I think streaming has a way to go before it can replace bluray but by that time, who know what will be out there. I don't think streaming will ever go away but I do think you will still have a choice in the matter - do you want a disc/flash drive/isolinear chip version or do you just want to stream it? hell, records were gone for a while and yet they have made a comeback, why think physical movies are going to go away.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by Towergrove

Sell what to you? The adverts say "Own it today on DVD, Bluray or Ultraviolet." what else is there to sell? Once I click the buy now button I can download said UV file to the device or server of my choosing. I can store said file on any medium I choose be it DVD, BD USB or any other storage. I can also stream the file if I desire. Again not sure what is left to sell to you with a digital purchase?

Well, that hasn't worked It'll just continue be something that I don't need. I don't have hard drives all over the house or a load of 'devices' to use, just a bluray player and some discs, nice and simple. It seems like a big step backwards and needlessly complicated to me.

Originally Posted by octagon

I've never bothered with it but I can see the point.

My sister and my mom live next to each other and I occasionally spend weekends down there. I've got a BD player and forty or so duplicate BDs down there and I also carry a bunch of discs back and forth.

If streaming quality every catches up it would be nice to have access to all my films/tv shows by simply registering a device. I can also see the appeal of being able to watch stuff on a phone while riding a train or the like.

To me those kinds of things will (probably) never replace physical media but they could make a nice 'value added' feature.

I can sort of see the sense in this, my old Dad is similar but there's no way he's ever going to buy a streaming device so when I go visit, I just put a few discs in a disc wallet to lend. I can't see this being easier than that.

It's too late for it to replace bluray, though. There's no way of getting me to buy the same film again as an inferior download. I remember when The Exorcist was announced on blu, there was much excitement and worry about the transfer, despite there being a HD version available to buy and rent as a download months before the disc release. No-one seemed to care about it.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

This will not last long, the online/UV version is only a current incentive for blu ray purchases, eventually it will not be offered on blu rays.

Will you stop? The point of those codes is that they are viewed as a reason to keep the prices higher. It doesn't cost the studio any more to include a code for a DC/UV version of the film, but most combos that include those cost a few dollars extra. Those codes are usually included with the versions that have the special feature content. Again they are using them so you think you are getting a better deal when you are paying a few bucks more. Kind of reminds of the South Park episode about WalMart... why would I want 2 copies of Timecop? I don't even want one.

If they take them away after some customers have been accustomed to them it may become a harder sell at the higher price point AND it's less exposure for the alternate delivery method you are so fond of.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

There is not much of an issue with this, I stated that if an average consumer buys one blu ray a week, that is about $100 per month, that is probably more than what the average consumer buys...now, if that buyer applies the same habits for renting/buying online and lets say they rent 4 movies, a standard internet plan will be fine.

The internet plan is not a problem.

the plan is the issue in some cases. here in Canada, even though you sign up for unlimited use, most providers start to complain if you use too much. that is why Netflix had to create different quality versions so you could still stream a movie and not use up all your bandwidth. how much is too much? they were saying if someone watched something like a couple movies a week(I don't think it was even one a day), you will exceed your "limit" easily. but the main problem is the internet itself. if you don't have good quality internet, then streaming isn't an option. even using high speed cable internet with the best Netflix settings, I don't get anywhere near the HD quality that I get from a bluray. at best, it is upconverted dvd quality. a majority of the country doesn't use fiber optics yet which again would make a huge difference in quality. blurau(and dvd) is pretty much for everyone while streaming is almost a city only option.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Will you stop? The point of those codes is that they are viewed as a reason to keep the prices higher. It doesn't cost the studio any more to include a code for a DC/UV version of the film, but most combos that include those cost a few dollars extra. Those codes are usually included with the versions that have the special feature content. Again they are using them so you think you are getting a better deal when you are paying a few bucks more. Kind of reminds of the South Park episode about WalMart... why would I want 2 copies of Timecop? I don't even want one.

If they take them away after some customers have been accustomed to them it may become a harder sell at the higher price point AND it's less exposure for the alternate delivery method you are so fond of.

hey, what's wrong with Timecop? but it is true. I asked before - what kind of a message are you sending when you sell a dvd version for $15, bluray for $20 and a combo of the two for $25? the prices don't add up! it is all about finding an excuse to charge you more. doesn't anyone find it strange how they rarely sell a barebones version for cheap and a deluxe edition for more? they want more money and if they give you an extra dvd of the movie, a downloadable version, etc, they can. and if those sell for $xx.xx, then they can justify selling a plain old bluray for that price down the road because that is the going rate for bluray movies.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

that is strange,.....my father who is senior loves Netflix, he just watched the entire season of House of Cards...no fuss, no muss..... Of course he has a smart TV

Why is it strange? My dad lives in a village, so a very, very poor internet connection. He can barely recieve emails, never mind Netflix. He spends most of his time in a boat with a rod so doesn't really care about it. This is a reality for lots of people. I, myself, don't always plan to live in a City. Fortunately, my movie collection is physical so a good internet connection won't even be an issue.

I'd look a right plum if all my films were on a server farm in India (which doesn't sound as exotic as 'the cloud' does it?) while I sat on my beach villa with no connection to them, wouldn't I?

[Towergrove]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

There is not much of an issue with this, I stated that if an average consumer buys one blu ray a week, that is about $100 per month, that is probably more than what the average consumer buys...now, if that buyer applies the same habits for renting/buying online and lets say they rent 4 movies, a standard internet plan will be fine.

The internet plan is not a problem.

Maybe not in your area but my internet provider is starting to meter usage. It does become a problem in the Lou.

[Towergrove]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

This will not last long, the online/UV version is only a current incentive for blu ray purchases, eventually it will not be offered on blu rays.

I attend many meetings every year with studio heads as the keynotes (Through my role as the Chairwoman of one of the larger film societies in the midwest). I sometimes get to ask them questions during the sessions. They have NEVER indicated such. Do you have any links to reflect this or just speculation?

Many many years down the road when Blu Ray is no longer available then yes maybe, but in the foreseeable future, not going to happen. Then their commercials would just say "Own it on Ultraviolet".


Sarah

[Towergrove]

Originally Posted by wormraper

yup, usually the things that get broken the fastest as the most popular. DCP is still niche enough that it's not a priority. Kinda like virus's for macs. they most definitely do exist and can be written easily, but since so few of the market uses the mac OS it's not very high on the priority list

I know and it is like candy to these kids who like to break them . Its a hobby and a passion to them much like movie collecting is to me.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Towergrove

I attend many meetings every year with studio heads as the keynotes (Through my role as the Chairwoman of one of the larger film societies in the midwest). I sometimes get to ask them questions during the sessions. They have NEVER indicated such. Do you have any links to reflect this or just speculation?

Many many years down the road when Blu Ray is no longer available then yes maybe, but in the foreseeable future, not going to happen. Then their commercials would just say "Own it on Ultraviolet".


Sarah

pagemaster's agenda on BD is just to spread FUD.

Sure sales of packaged media are down, but much of that has to do with the fact that most of the economy has been in the dumps for the past 4.5 years. Some of it is due to the novelty of collecting wearing off for some, BUT if it was truly a money losing business the studios would be walking away from it. FACT is most businesses are not making the profit that they were when the economy was booming in the late 90s and early 00s.

And for all this sunshine and lollipops attitude that pagemaster is throwing at EST I haven't seen a single one of these providers share actual sales dollars that are coming from it. Only the % it has grown. All I can say, much like the format war days talking point that some liked to throw around, growth doesn't mean much when you are talking about small sales numbers to begin with.

Remember how some of the companies were doing free disc promotions and they were including those promotional discs as part of their disc sales data. I would be interested if those included DC/UV were being counted for sales or growth in the EST market.

The industry wants you to believe this is the future but the number of people primarily buying films with EST is most likely an extremely small market. It doesn't appeal to the primary customers that like to collect. The reality is that the studios won't be able to sell an EST copy for the same amount as the BD combo-pack.

If it goes to that model I won't pay over $10 for anything for outright purchase for the following reasons:
1. Less control of the content for the buyer, the provider can yank it anytime they want.
2. Quality is still going to be an issue, less likely to get high bitrate video and lossless audio
3. Can't sell the title if I decide I no longer want, again less control for the consumer
4. Although UV is addressing some of this not everyone is on board with UV yet, if my provider goes under, do I lose my library? Most likely yes if it isn't UV.
5. Hard drive space isn't free for storage and if I use the cloud I have no access to content in areas where I don't have a high speed connection.
6. Nothing tangible or intrinsic about the purchase, no packaging, no physical distribution needed. Studio would be saving a lot on those so I in return would want to get some of those savings passed on to me.

[KRW1]

It's too late for EST to have the nudge over bluray. If bluray was launched today, yes, possibly, but it's so well established now, you can't replace it with an inferior product. Even the humble CD still has the edge over MP3, at least as far as albums are concerned and that's a tiny amount of data compared to a 50gb movie.

They need the early adaptors and collectors on board. Those that'll pay $30 for a film. Without them, it's doomed until 4k is a thing.

[blonde_devil]

control is a big factor. with streaming/downloading, the studio had ultimate control of the movie. if someone decides to pull a Lucas and change scenes in their movie, what is to stop them from changing your version that you downloaded 6 months earlier? can't happen? anyone donwload the new OS for the iPod and have to download the podcast app? I did and a couple days later I get a pop-up saying all my podcasts have been transferred to that app. it was all done behind the scenes and I had no say in it. why can't the same thing happen here?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by CraigW

pagemaster's agenda on BD is just to spread FUD.

Sure sales of packaged media are down, but much of that has to do with the fact that most of the economy has been in the dumps for the past 4.5 years. Some of it is due to the novelty of collecting wearing off for some, BUT if it was truly a money losing business the studios would be walking away from it. FACT is most businesses are not making the profit that they were when the economy was booming in the late 90s and early 00s.

I agree.

I also think one of the reasons why packaged media sales are down compared to what they were once at is simply saturation. When the DVD format went mainstream, it "boomed" in a really major way. Unlike VHS tapes which are known to degrade over time, DVD was toted as being a format that would last a long time (even if Blu-Ray is now more durable with the scratch resistant coating). As long as people take care of their discs, they will last a long, long time. That combined with things like bonus features, documtaries, and even theatrical trailers, making many DVDs sort of like a nice catch all of not only the movie itself but a way of preserving the making of and marketing of the movie, made it a more collectible medium.

And then we saw the advent of entire TV series being released in season sets, which didn't happen much in the VHS days outside of a few select shows like the different Star Trek series because it really wasn't viable or efficient to do so.

This made DVD collectors out of many people who mainly rented during the VHS days, and made "uber" collectors out of those who already collected movies to some degree on VHS and other previous formats. And as a result
the selling (as opposed to renting) took off in an unprecedentedly huge way.

Also back during the VHS days, it was common for many movies to come out at rental stores first for a few months before being sold at regular retailers (and rental stores paid big money for those VHS copies from what I understand). There were a few exceptions to this, often major blockbuster films, but not many. During the days of laserdisc and early days of DVD, it was very common for the laserdisc and/or DVD versions of many movies to be released for general sale to the public at the same time that the VHS was only available for rental since at the time the formats had a niche audience and were typically paying premium for them anyway.

But as DVD gradually came more into the mainstream and VHS gradually faded away, the pattern of holding back a movie for general sale and having a rental exclusive window faded away as well.

This is a big part of why stores like Blockbuster were already not doing so great for a few years even before things like Netflix came onto the scene. People were no longer forced to rent a movie if they want to watch it at home as soon as possible... they now had the choice to buy it. And since many of the mom & pop rentals stores had died off thanks to the likes of Blockbuster, and with Blockbuster's rental prices often being rather high, many people just opted to buy the movie.


As a result of all of this, DVD saturated the market. People bought all of their favorite movies and in some cases TV shows, and now have them at home to watch anytime they want. The vast majority of major and even mediocre catalog titles has been released at some time or another and people already have them for the most part.

Now that this has happened, of course media sales are going to drop. People are still buying brand new titles and even the occasional catalog title that is just coming out for the first time or that they never got around to getting.

Blu-Ray has helped in preventing media sales from dropping further than they have. And sales wise, the format overall is doing just fine. While it may not quite be (and may never become) what DVD was at it's height, it's not laserdisc either. It's a very solid, successful format that will be around for many years to come. I'm not at all worried about the format as a whole going away anytime soon.

But the reason that it's not doing quite as well as DVD was at it's height is because of the sales saturation of DVDs. People who bought their favorite movies on DVD that they used to rent on VHS now have those movies sitting on their shelves at home. And for many average people (in other words people who aren't enthusiasts like most of us on this site are to some degree or another) aren't going to be as likely to rebuy all of their movies again. They may get a Blu-Ray player and buy newer movies that they don't already own on Blu-Ray, and even upgrade a few select catalog titles of major blockbuster movies (i.e. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc.). But they may not go out of their way to rebuy Happy Gilmore or Romy and Michele's High School Reunion to have them in HD.

This is why we are seeing a lot of catalog titles from major studios licensed out to these smaller distributors like Mill Creek and Echo Bridge. The studios have come to know that people aren't going to rush out and rebuy them all at $20 a pop like they did in many cases on DVD. They don't find it worth while to directly release these movies themselves, so they license them out in bulk to these budget distributors for some kind of bulk licensed rate, giving the original studio a reasonable chunk of cash all at once, and letting those smaller distributors sell the movies for $5-$10 each, which apparently is enough for them to make a profit or they wouldn't keep doing it. The low prices also give people who are on the fence more of an incentive to upgrade.

But make no mistake, Blu-Ray overall is doing fine, and the sales of new movies and bigger catalog titles is doing just fine.

Those who tend to argue in favor of digital distribution methods often try to argue that things like the poorer sales of some catalog titles (and those titles being licensed out) is a sign that people don't want physical media and instead want it digitally. But this is a logical fallacy in that many people just don't want to buy the same movie over and over again. If they are satisfied with the quality of the release that they already have at home, they have no reason to buy it again at all. And since Blu-Ray players play DVDs, even those who have upgraded to one don't have to rebuy ALL of their movies if they don't want to.

Different people have different priorities. Not everyone is as enthusiastic about rebuying the same movies in higher quality as many of us are here. By and large, people tend not to rebuy things that they already have unless what they currently have breaks or they see value and have a personal interest in upgrading. While I am interested in upgrading most of my movies and have done so in many cases, I don't have the same interest in doing that with everything that I own.

There may be fancier toasters out there that have more options and are superior to the one that I currently have at home, but since my toaster still works just fine and toasts my bread to my satisfaction, I'm not going to rush out and buy one. The fact that I'm not upgrading to one kind of fancier toaster right now does not mean that I'm specifically waiting for another... it means that I'm fine with the one I have and don't plan to replace it until I have to. The same goes for people not upgrading their movies to either Blu-Ray or some kind of digitally distributed version.

And in a down economy, people are going to be less likely to upgrade things that they already have a working version of. If a family has a limited entertainment budget, they are likely going to spend what money they can afford on buying a movie that they don't already have instead of upgrading one that they have on DVD.

[Tok]

Good points Dynamo.

The main reason iTunes exists is that its an easy place to go where you can just buy a song or two off an album for much less than buying the entire album. Same thing with TV episodes. For movies its a much harder sell. I wonder if it will become like the audio side. Hey I really like that scene in a movie. Can I buy that chapter for $1?

[kallima]

I am probably in the minority and may be a part of the geographically undesirable demographic (read tiny small town w/only one stoplight) but because of this I ONLY buy physical media. I have Netflix, but I must use my phone or tablet's mobile hotspot even for that. Thank goodness I have unlimited data on my phone otherwise I would really be SOL.

The UV/DC marketing bears no effect on my purchasing - before I found this site 2 weeks ago, ALL of my codes were left to expire or got tossed in the garbage. Thankfully, I now have use for them because of this site.

I will always be the type that likes physical media. Even with the convenience of e-books, Kindle, audiobooks etc, I still purchase hard/paperback books. The tactile sensation, whether it's flipping a page or the excitement of tearing off BD/DVD packaging, always trump button, touchscreen pushing. Do I own some titles in all areas? Yes. Digital media serves to complement physical media. It will be a loooooong way away for everyone to want digital media to be their ONLY source for all things entertainment.

[kallima]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

You are the second guy who has said, "oh I only buy physical media as I live in a small town" blah blah blah.....but then you make the point that you have Netflix and that you use it and thank goodness your plan is unlimited..looks like streaming is penetrating the small towns too....

Yes, I use Netflix for streaming TV primarily, NOT MOVIES. Wanna know how much data I used streaming all seasons of Supernatural, Gossip Girl, How I meet Your Mother? And I got LUCKY being grandfathered in to unlimited data, if my boyfriend had to stream that data on his plan he would be paying $500+. So what's your solution to those that aren't as lucky? Should they move to a new town? Get a girlfriend with unlimited data? What's your answer there genius?

*** the use of "blah, blah, blah" is rude when the option to quote is available. Mind your manners.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by kallima

Yes, I use Netflix for streaming TV primarily, NOT MOVIES. Wanna know how much data I used streaming all seasons of Supernatural, Gossip Girl, How I meet Your Mother? And I got LUCKY being grandfathered in to unlimited data, if my boyfriend had to stream that data on his plan he would be paying $500+. So what's your solution to those that aren't as lucky? Should they move to a new town? Get a girlfriend with unlimited data? What's your answer there genius?

*** the use of "blah, blah, blah" is rude when the option to quote is available. Mind your manners.

I also like how pm ignored my post regarding the studios viewing DC/UV codes as value adds for the higher priced BD sets. Doesn't cost them anything and if they take them away its less exposure for his preferred viewing method.

pm is just here to ruffle feathers. Come to a BD board, make bold claims about streaming/downloading killing the format. The studios already know they can't get away with charging the same for a streaming/download copy when the customer is already perceiving it as having less value. BDs will be here for a long time. The studios are still making most of their revenue on physical media for the home entertainment market.

I am guessing pm had a strong alliance to another failed format and he likes pushing the buttons of the members here.


Pretty much every one of pm's posts are BLAH BLAH APPLE RULES BLAH BLAH BLAH APPLE

[kallima]

Yes I agree, PM is here to push buttons, funny thing is, if he would actually discuss this in a logical manner instead of making claims, stating opinion as fact, this could actually turn into a productive discussion. As it stands, I think he either works for that "fruity" company since he plugs them so much in his many posts or is unable to process information in a rationale manner.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by CraigW

And for all this sunshine and lollipops attitude that pagemaster is throwing at EST I haven't seen a single one of these providers share actual sales dollars that are coming from it. Only the % it has grown. All I can say, much like the format war days talking point that some liked to throw around, growth doesn't mean much when you are talking about small sales numbers to begin with.

Agreed. That's how the game is played.