DTS-HD MA bitstream decoder flaw can damage gear... - Page 3 - Blu-ray Forum

un4gvn94538 · 03-23-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gremal

AVS is still hugely anti-BD. Even blu-adopters who frequent that forum are strongly biased against it, and they're even more critical of the format now that their beloved HD DVD is dead and buried. Early adoption involves some gliches. I remember when hybrid, multichannel SACDs came from Europe, they would always emit a long burst of digital noise at the end of the disc from the SCD-1. Sony wanted us to send our disc machines in for a chip update, but I never did. It just wasn't that big a deal. It's clear that BD-whiners are intent on blowing out of proportion any glich in the rollout of Blu-ray.

i havent experienced this but i am worried. do you really think that all those posts 15 pages now in such a short time and very detailed are from biased users? doubt it. i suggest you read every page as i have and see if your view changes. also follow the links provided

Vlad44 · 03-23-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

This is what Kris Deering said about it on AVS:

It is real. And it is serious.

Don't wave it off as unimportant simply because you haven't experienced it.

Gary

i begin to worry about upcoming bd players with internal dtshdma decoding. are they in danger?

un4gvn94538 · 03-23-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad44

i begin to worry about upcoming bd players with internal dtshdma decoding. are they in danger?

again, its only players that bitstream. pcm isnt an issue.

TENSE · 03-23-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiman04

PS3 decodes the audio through software, not chip.

Through firmware update, the PS3 will be capable of internal decoding of DTS-HD MA and send it as PCM. It's already confirmed by Penton-Man, only don't know when.

If we talk about HBR bitstreaming by PS3, now that's the one that is in doubt it can do.

can you send e the link please or a video?
to make sure your not lying

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad44

i begin to worry about upcoming bd players with internal dtshdma decoding. are they in danger?

Without understanding the mechanism of the problem, we can't know. Clearly what is coming out of the decoder is bad. But is good data being fed into it?

There are claims the encoder (used by the studio) can mitigate the issue. But, does that mean it merely avoids a bit-pattern than causes the decoder to screw up, or has the encoder generated bad data?

Why wouldn't this be an issue with on-board decoding?

Gary

Gremal · 03-23-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

This is being pointed out as a flaw in general receivers, not BD specifically.

Some are using it as an argument against adopting BD and it is a very appealing argument to those who don't know any better and were thinking of adopting.

Quote:

I expect if the encoder has generated the bad data and/or the decoder chip, then the same or similar problem would have occured on HD DVD had DTS-HD MA been used on it.

I'm sure you're right, but as my SACD anecdote shows, it is not uncommon for new formats to be produced in ways not compatible with some chipsets or firmware widely used in earlier-generation hardware. I think we are in the early stages of Blu-ray adoption and while I don't wish to minimize the seriousness of the problem for those who've experienced it, I would hope it is not being used as a scare tactic against adopting BD. But I know from other forums that it is being used that way, and that is why I have a snap reaction to play it down.

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

again, its only players that bitstream. pcm isnt an issue.

DTS-HD MA -> HDMI (bitstream) -> Receiver -> Decoder -> Bad LPCM

DTS-HD MA -> Decoder -> (Good/bad?) LPCM -> HDMI (LPCM) -> Receiver

The decoding apparently is the key here. Why would it be a non-issue on-board BD players?

Gary

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gremal

Some are using it as an argument against adopting BD and it is a very appealing argument to those who don't know any better and were thinking of adopting.

No doubt. The anti-Blu brigade of "community leaders" is still well paid.

Are these bozos deciding DTS-HD MA has no future at all in downloads too?

Gary

Vlad44 · 03-23-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

again, its only players that bitstream. pcm isnt an issue.

that means bd30 isnt so perfect. no sammy in that list. lol. all my hopes for bd50 ruined.

j/k

un4gvn94538 · 03-23-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

DTS-HD MA -> HDMI (bitstream) -> Receiver -> Decoder -> Bad LPCM

DTS-HD MA -> Decoder -> (Good/bad?) LPCM -> HDMI (LPCM) -> Receiver

The decoding apparently is the key here. Why would it be a non-issue on-board BD players?

Gary

well, they have tested that theory and ruled it out. using same equipment and cables. the big bang doesnt happen when the player decodes at a given point in a given movie, even when it was repeatedly done. but it does happen and the same point in the same movie when the receiver is decoding. they go into great detail in the thread

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

well, they have tested that theory and ruled it out. using same equipment and cables. the big bang doesnt happen when the player decodes at a given point in a given movie, even when it was repeatedly done. but it does happen and the same point in the same movie when the receiver is decoding. they go into great detail in the thread

Doesn't that only prove the decoder they used for the test doesn't have a problem? That was also confirmed for bitstream decoding, right? Some receivers don't have the problem.

That is: some decoders don't have a problem.

How does that mean that no on-board DTS-HD MA coming for BD will have a problem?

Gary

un4gvn94538 · 03-23-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Doesn't that only prove the decoder they used for the test doesn't have a problem? That was also confirmed for bitstream decoding, right? Some receivers don't have the problem.

That is: some decoders don't have a problem.

How does that mean that no on-board DTS-HD MA coming for BD will have a problem?

Gary

its the faulty chip in the receiver. if the player is doing the decoding, then the dts ma decoding in the receiver is not being used. and it seems only a batch of chips are faulty because not all receivers are having this problem

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

its the faulty chip in the receiver. if the player is doing the decoding, then the dts ma decoding in the receiver is not being used. and it seems only a batch of chips are faulty because not all receivers are having this problem

Is the bitstream legal and the decoding is generating bad data?

And, can you say that the decoder chip in question is not going to be used in any upcoming BD player?

Gary

Vlad44 · 03-23-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

How does that mean that no on-board DTS-HD MA coming for BD will have a problem?

Gary

thats exactly what i worry about...

un4gvn94538 · 03-23-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Is the bitstream legal and the decoding is generating bad data?

And, can you say that the decoder chip in question is not going to be used in any upcoming BD player?

Gary

i cant say anything. all i know is what i have read last night. 15 pages of a 100 some odd posts. all i know is that its said that dts has implimented a fix on future releases and what players and receivers have been used to test theories.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008620

again, i urge everyone to read it.

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

i cant say anything. all i know is what i have read last night. 15 pages of a 100 some odd posts. all i know is that its said that dts has implimented a fix on future releases and what players and receivers have been used to test theories.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008620

again, i urge everyone to read it.

I agree. Everyone should read the thread.

Quote:

Well I had to know, so I just verified that my RX-V3800 has the bug using the Eagles Farewell HD DVD played from an HD-A35 and an LG BH200.

So, the problem existed on HD DVD as well.

Now the problem is known, I expect the makers to test and have work arounds in place. If there are problems elsewhere, we probably won't see them occur.

Alas, this is all part of being an early adopter. And the anti-BD crowd should be ostracized for trying to turn it into anything else. Pushing that angle shows someone is a clueless idiot and can be safely ignored.

Gary

Crème Blu-ray · 03-23-2008, 09:09 PM

Here's what the pop sounds like. I have a DMP-BD30K connected to an RX-V3800.

This is from The Fly. The pop happens at exactly 13:00. I set the volume all the way down to -55 dB, so I had to place the microphone next to the speaker so you can hear it in context. Even at this level, the pop is significant.

link

For now I've set the audio output on my BD30 to PCM for DTS-HD as a safeguard. Unfortunately this means I won't be able to fully enjoy DTS-HD MA 7.1 audio.

dialog_gvf · 03-23-2008, 09:13 PM

YIKES!

You must have freaked when that first happened. It would sound like a gunshot at volume.

Are your speakers OK?

Gary

Crème Blu-ray · 03-23-2008, 09:26 PM

Of the titles listed in the AVS thread, I only have The Fly. Thankfully I read these two threads before I watched it. I haven't heard the pop on any other titles I own.

Jodi · 03-23-2008, 09:45 PM

I think I'm going to wait out all of this stuff.
I do plan to wait till summer to get Sony's S-350 BD player with DTS-HD MA/DTS-HD High Resolution via bitstream and probably the Pioneer Elite 92 receiver that decodes all DTS codecs (from "core" to HD-MA).
I am not at all against DTS in ANY way. In fact, it is my preferred audio codec.
Thank God Fox is all DTS-HD MA, as well as MGM and, at times, Lionsgate.
I do think that ALL studios (eventually) need to use DTS-HD MA. I read far too many good reviews of BDs with DTS-HD MA and not so good reviews of BDs with Dolby TrueHD (particularly Dolby's rather lackluster bass and overall sonic character compared to DTS).
I would argue that DTS needs to step in and work with studios like Warner, the Disney "umbrella", Sony Pictures (which all currently do not employ DTS in their BDs) and come out with limited-edition BDs of films from the just-mentioned studios that DO employ DTS-HD MA (with no extras on such discs to allow for enough bandwidth for both the video and, of course, the DTS audio).

Jodi
DTS fan for life

P.S. Why are so many of the Fox BDs kicking so much visual and sonic ass?
Ask yourselves.......

03-23-2008, 09:09 PM	#57
Crème Blu-ray Expert Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Silicon Valley Home Theater Gallery:1 Blu-ray collection:323 Blu-ray reviews: 11 Trading Score:3	Here's what it sounds like Here's what the pop sounds like. I have a DMP-BD30K connected to an RX-V3800. This is from The Fly. The pop happens at exactly 13:00. I set the volume all the way down to -55 dB, so I had to place the microphone next to the speaker so you can hear it in context. Even at this level, the pop is significant. link For now I've set the audio output on my BD30 to PCM for DTS-HD as a safeguard. Unfortunately this means I won't be able to fully enjoy DTS-HD MA 7.1 audio. Last edited by Crème Blu-ray; 03-23-2008 at 09:14 PM.

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03-23-2008, 09:13 PM	#58
dialog_gvf Moderator Member since:Nov 2006 Location:Toronto Blu-ray collection:320	YIKES! You must have freaked when that first happened. It would sound like a gunshot at volume. Are your speakers OK? Gary

03-23-2008, 09:26 PM	#59
Crème Blu-ray Expert Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Silicon Valley Home Theater Gallery:1 Blu-ray collection:323 Blu-ray reviews: 11 Trading Score:3	Of the titles listed in the AVS thread, I only have The Fly. Thankfully I read these two threads before I watched it. I haven't heard the pop on any other titles I own.

03-23-2008, 09:45 PM	#60
Jodi Power Member Member since:Jan 2006	I think I'm going to wait out all of this stuff. I do plan to wait till summer to get Sony's S-350 BD player with DTS-HD MA/DTS-HD High Resolution via bitstream and probably the Pioneer Elite 92 receiver that decodes all DTS codecs (from "core" to HD-MA). I am not at all against DTS in ANY way. In fact, it is my preferred audio codec. Thank God Fox is all DTS-HD MA, as well as MGM and, at times, Lionsgate. I do think that ALL studios (eventually) need to use DTS-HD MA. I read far too many good reviews of BDs with DTS-HD MA and not so good reviews of BDs with Dolby TrueHD (particularly Dolby's rather lackluster bass and overall sonic character compared to DTS). I would argue that DTS needs to step in and work with studios like Warner, the Disney "umbrella", Sony Pictures (which all currently do not employ DTS in their BDs) and come out with limited-edition BDs of films from the just-mentioned studios that DO employ DTS-HD MA (with no extras on such discs to allow for enough bandwidth for both the video and, of course, the DTS audio). Jodi DTS fan for life P.S. Why are so many of the Fox BDs kicking so much visual and sonic ass? Ask yourselves.......

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