Subliminal messages in Children Cartoons - Your Thoughts?

[yeslek]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Loose Change apparently had some 'facts' checked, and they didn't check out, BUT there are still many, many questions, that the explanations given hold up.

So in the end, it comes down to which side you want to believe. I choose to believe we were lied to because they could, and what it meant in the future for those who did it.

Some people I think look at the world with too many rosy tinted glasses and can't possibly fathom that such evil can be committed even simply in the name of greed. We're human after all, no matter how 'evolved' we think we are, the savagery just becomes more efficient in execution and the methods of concealment more sophisticated.

dont get me wrong I didn sit there watching it thinking 'yeah right', but more that I'm getting this information, 3rd hand (same as with all official reports and media coverage), and personal slant(perspective?) will always be a factor when someone tells you something, however seemingly well backed up.

Hence, why I believe the movies half right and half wrong.
There are a lot of holes and like you say, there was much to gain by the American G'ment lying, but I also dont think they lied as much as you'd expect. The truth is always somewhere in the middle of both sides.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by 42041

Draping BS in (what purports to be) science, logic, and mathematics is a tactic often used by cranks of all sorts, whether it be audiophile snake oil salesmen, perpetual motion scams, etc, as their target audience typically has no real understanding of any of those things.

Ok, I can appreciate your explanation, because it speaks truth that people HAVE used such methods BUT, are you telling me that every single point was pseudo-science, logic and quasi-maths with no basis?

Don't you in the least bit find even a fraction of the many claims hold merit?

I don't buy into everything i'm told in Loose Change or others (which apparently are even better), but when a good portion holds under scrutiny, then as they say 'There is no smoke, without fire'

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by yeslek

dont get me wrong I didn sit there watching it thinking 'yeah right', but more that I'm getting this information, 3rd hand (same as with all official reports and media coverage), and personal slant(perspective?) will always be a factor when someone tells you something, however seemingly well backed up.

Hence, why I believe the movies half right and half wrong.
There are a lot of holes and like you say, there was much to gain by the American G'ment lying, but I also dont think they lied as much as you'd expect. The truth is always somewhere in the middle of both sides.

Sometimes buddy, there is NO middle ground to take. It's a yes/no type thing. This is a yes they did, or no they didn't type situation.

If you look at how a society reacts to events, you'll find 9/10 times, that the media has directly contributed to ANY perception of whether actions are justified or not. I'll give you an example, a certain war...gets protested....but they go ahead anyways....then, the media spins for many years to change the perception to one that will get consensus or change perception to agreement.

Unfortunately, I think we have too many sheep, and they're all too happy to follow the shepherds to the slaughter house imo.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Loose Change apparently had some 'facts' checked, and they didn't check out, BUT there are still many, many questions, that the explanations given hold up.

No hard feelings to anyone here, but the above quote is the reason why I am not going to indulge people in this thread who are asking me to provide links that debunk the arguments in Loose Change.

The arguments for and against the assertions in Loose Change can easily be found with a Google search, but the followers of that film generally continue to plow on with circular retorts. Arguing with believers of 9/11 conspiracies is similar to arguing about religion. When people are focused on a belief, they will always seek out arguments against any statements contrary to their belief. I am not saying that I'm above this sort of mindset myself, but I simply do not wish go in circles on a forum when I'm about to head out the door to a friend's party.

Many of the questions that fans of Loose Change ask in response to the arguments from established sources follow common logical fallacies of reasoning in such a way that it is fruitless to counter these arguments.

"I know for a fact that the creature in John Carpenter's The Thing actually exists, because nobody has ever proven that it does not exist."



Loose Change is almost like a "greatest hits" of 9/11 conspiracy theories that are presented, rapid machine-gun style, to the viewer, and the lack of a specific focus in the film does not help its credibility.

I guess that my previous post was not my final post in this forum after all. That happens sometimes.

[yeslek]

I guess 'dont believe everythnig you hear' comes into play strongly here

thats for people believing ANY ersion of the 9/11 tradegy

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Sometimes buddy, there is NO middle ground to take. It's a yes/no type thing. This is a yes they did, or no they didn't type situation.

If you look at how a society reacts to events, you'll find 9/10 times, that the media has directly contributed to ANY perception of whether actions are justified or not. I'll give you an example, a certain war...gets protested....but they go ahead anyways....then, the media spins for many years to change the perception to one that will get consensus or change perception to agreement.

Unfortunately, I think we have too many sheep, and they're all too happy to follow the shepherds to the slaughter house imo.

sure there's a middle ground - the American Government isnt innocent and there are a LOT of holes in what happened, BUT, there are and have been many other terrorist attacks aimed at big cities in the western world, so believing middle eastern terrorists had a hand in the 9/11 attacks is also extremely plausible.
Its been a while, but didnt the Michael Moore documentary claim the G'ment worked with the terror groups to stage it? (Or was it just middle eastern officials that were involved....)

Maybe I just havnt made my mind up of exactly where I stand as every so called ''fact' cannot always be trusted, whether by source, presentation or whatever.

What you say about media is one of the main reasons I dont buy newspapers to watch the news on TV all too often. I dont want my view of the world tainted by the select stuff I'm shown.

Lastly, I think a lot of the 'sheep' you refer too would rather believe the best in others and dont want to even consider they may have been lied to on such a grand scale (that said, I dont trust my *ahem* leaders one bit)

[NARMAK]

'The Great Owl', you seem like a sensible person, so i'll just make the point that you possibly misunderstood the reason I said 'Fact' like that and not 'fact', because clearly it was a claim made in loose change that was then countered and debunked.

A fact to me, is 1+1=2.

A fact is that the sky to people that aren't colour blind varies from blue with white clouds on a sunny days, to many other colours depending on the weather.

The earth is round, not flat.

My point was that I don't take everything they present at face value, but I choose to believe that on balance, the 'evidence' presented suggests that there was in fact a conspiracy and the subsequent actions of the countries involved support this as being part of the agenda.

Wars profitable afterall.

Yeslek, I totally agree with you, every such event regardless of agenda WAS a tragedy, because many thousands of innocent people lost their lives as a result. People on 'both' sides, but mainly those who are caught in the cross hairs of a conspiracy.

I don't think there is such a thing as bigfoot or aliens, and I don't stick a tin foil hat on and think about crop circles, but I keep myself centred on the actions of humans, and their petty agendas for totalitarian control.

History time and time again has shown the rise and fall of empires, and we don't live in any other world that those actions aren't still being done today in some manner for greed and collective gain of a few.

[yeslek]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

No hard feelings to anyone here, but the above quote is the reason why I am not going to indulge people in this thread who are asking me to provide links that debunk the arguments in Loose Change.

The arguments for and against the assertions in Loose Change can easily be found with a Google search, but the followers of that film generally continue to plow on with circular retorts. Arguing with believers of 9/11 conspiracies is similar to arguing about religion. When people are focused on a belief, they will always seek out arguments against any statements contrary to their belief. I am not saying that I'm above this sort of mindset myself, but I simply do not wish go in circles on a forum when I'm about to head out the door to a friend's party.

Many of the questions that fans of Loose Change ask in response to the arguments from established sources follow common logical fallacies of reasoning in such a way that it is fruitless to counter these arguments.

"I know for a fact that the creature in John Carpenter's The Thing actually exists, because nobody has ever proven that it does not exist."



Loose Change is almost like a "greatest hits" of 9/11 conspiracy theories that are presented, rapid machine-gun style, to the viewer, and the lack of a specific focus in the film does not help its credibility.

I guess that my previous post was not my final post in this forum after all. That happens sometimes.

arguing any conspiracy theory, or alternate believe will draw parallels with religion on the grounds that one side will say, 'I believe X happened/exists/occured' and the other will of course, oppose it on the grounds of 'well prove it' which of course they cant and so are dismissed for their belief....and of course each side can demand the other 'prove' their believe only to have it dismissed for being unable to.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by yeslek

arguing any conspiracy theory, or alternate believe will draw parallels with religion on the grounds that one side will say, 'I believe X happened/exists/occured' and the other will of course, oppose it on the grounds of 'well prove it' which of course they cant and so are dismissed for their belief....and of course each side can demand the other 'prove' their believe only to have it dismissed for being unable to.

And this is how we go round in 'circles' and come to an impasse.

I suppose the problem is, we're even divided on things that are based upon logic, maths and science, so how can we then debate theology in a constructive manner

[yeslek]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

'The Great Owl', you seem like a sensible person, so i'll just make the point that you possibly misunderstood the reason I said 'Fact' like that and not 'fact', because clearly it was a claim made in loose change that was then countered and debunked.

A fact to me, is 1+1=2.

A fact is that the sky to people that aren't colour blind varies from blue with white clouds on a sunny days, to many other colours depending on the weather.

The earth is round, not flat.

My point was that I don't take everything they present at face value, but I choose to believe that on balance, the 'evidence' presented suggests that there was in fact a conspiracy and the subsequent actions of the countries involved support this as being part of the agenda.

Wars profitable afterall.

Yeslek, I totally agree with you, every such event regardless of agenda WAS a tragedy, because many thousands of innocent people lost their lives as a result. People on 'both' sides, but mainly those who are caught in the cross hairs of a conspiracy.

I don't think there is such a thing as bigfoot or aliens, and I don't stick a tin foil hat on and think about crop circles, but I keep myself centred on the actions of humans, and their petty agendas for totalitarian control.

History time and time again has shown the rise and fall of empires, and we don't live in any other world that those actions aren't still being done today in some manner for greed and collective gain of a few.

I have to say that based on all the 'facts' I've read, seen, been told, I tend to agree with the bolded bit.

But what you say about the likes of Big Foot and Aliens....I'm not as quick to dismiss as you but I'm also not a tin foil wearing alien hunter. I do tend to lean towards to the 'oh its just silly stuff' side but I'm also never going to fully rule it out as 100% nonsense due to the world and the universe being so big with so many possibilities, and us mere humans being relatively so young and unknowing that pretty much nothing should ever really be truly dismissed (in my opinion anyway.)

[yeslek]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

And this is how we go round in 'circles' and come to an impasse.

I suppose the problem is, we're even divided on things that are based upon logic, maths and science, so how can we then debate theology in a constructive manner

exactly

I mean, Chaos Theory for example - big contradiction in title alone, that can cause many a debate, yet is supposed to be based on mathematical facts... lol

I think its safe to say - 'you weren't there, so how do you know' in regards to many theories. Unless we witness something with our own eyes, the 3rd party recipients of said event will always encompass a doubter of sorts (correctly so or not)

[Fellini912]

I guess to add my two cents to the thread (which is thought provoking thread and pertinent to movies), it is common to drive a political propaganda through mass media. It might not be as effective as 50 or so years ago, because anyone curious enough can find good honest sources in the Internet.

You have the nazis with Goebbels and soviet regime promoting their ideologies, and censoring anything that goes against it. Even Churchill had The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp censored due to fact of portraying some Germans as good people.

It is common knowledge to see an increase of war films and video games during time of war.

It is always good to not only judge a movie on the technical basis, but also on an ideological basis. What did that movie try to convene?

For example Inglorious Basterds , although it is a great technical, stylistic and well-crafted film, I totally disagree with its message. Allied forces acting like nazis is just dumb and infantile. One of the major reasons for defeating the axis forces was to steer away from these unethical fascists, not to become them.

[NARMAK]

Iron Man 3 is my most beloved running commentary on the modern world we live in, where threats are merely made up as a perception than actually being true, in order to push an agenda further than it could ever go under normal circumstances. It even goes so far as to include the elements of government involvement and media manipulations.

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Iron Man 3 is my most beloved running commentary on the modern world we live in, where threats are merely made up as a perception than actually being true, in order to push an agenda further than it could ever go under normal circumstances. It even goes so far as to include the elements of government involvement and media manipulations.

I think you are forgetting the solution that the movie is providing. A corporate like Tony Stark that has invested billions of dollars in manufacturing war weapons is better than the military, the government and the media.

Is having or building a more powerful weapon a deterrent to war? Be careful of what you are praising.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

I think you are forgetting the solution that the movie is providing. A corporate like Tony Stark that has invested billions of dollars in manufacturing war weapons is better than the military, the government and the media.

Is having or building a more powerful weapon a deterrent to war? Be careful of what you are praising.

Sorry, I may have made a confusing message. I meant, I like the fact that the movie was willing to touch on such themes.

Also, we already know powerful weapons aren't the answer to problems. It's how we've ended up with some extremely bad wars in a very short period of time <100 years.

Also, the Iron Man armour isn't quite a more 'powerful' weapon per se, as it has less destructive force than a nuke for instance. But it's more like a scalpel.

Weapons are merely a tool, and dangerous in anybody's hand with the 'wrong' agenda. The problem being, one mans right, is another's wrong.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by cinemaphile

while there are a VERY FEW legit instances of animators putting something in there, MOST are disproven because they were never true in the first place - no propoganda involved. It's people looking too hard for something that isn't there.
If you look or listen for something, you'll hear or see what you want to. It's like someone pointing out a shape in a cloud or ink blot.

Specifically, most of the urban legends about "evil" Disney films were thrown about by the Southern Baptists, back when 90's Disney was the biggest mainstream windmill they could tilt at. (Fundamentalists had to pick on mainstream franchises like Harry Potter, Pokemon, Twilight and Wizard of Oz for the same reason radical Muslims pick on western influence, you don't want rival temptations stealing your audiences.)
Most of the tilting they were doing at Disney was partly trying to tie it into "Hollywood is corrupt and destroying families with their messaging!" (so don't take your kids to popular movies, homeschool them with VeggieTales instead!), namely by trying to tie Disney's allowing "gay days" at their parks with the fact that Ellen was still running on ABC...Aha, that PROVES it! So, the SB's went out in search of any "proof" of corrupt sexuality in Disney films, starting with, quote, "overtly gay characters" in Lion King, the biggest Disney windmill in the mid-90's. (Oh, and they were referring to Timon & Pumbaa at the time; hands up how many thought they were referring to Scar?) That led to the story that a mom's 6-yo. had "seen" S-E-X in the stars scene, and most adults had to examine screenshots in detail to even find it.
For the record, the SB's finally and publicly pulled back on the Hollywood/Disney-baiting after the Narnia movies came out in '05, and the church admitted it would probably be smarter to hitch their carts to the horse instead of beating it. But, the legacy of the 90's lives on, mostly through dumb people who don't check the dates on web articles.

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

The arguments for and against the assertions in Loose Change can easily be found with a Google search, but the followers of that film generally continue to plow on with circular retorts.
"I know for a fact that the creature in John Carpenter's The Thing actually exists, because nobody has ever proven that it does not exist."

Now colloquially referred to as the Criswell Defense, because who now doesn't hear the Plan Nine From Outer Space narrator stentoriously declaring "My friends...can you prove it DIDN'T HAPPEN?" ()

As a Mythbusters fan, I enjoy watching the psychology of urban legends--Well, I don't literally enjoy watching grown adults try to put "realistic" spins on childish fears to validate them and make them look Important (and therefore not to be argued with!); I just enjoy watching how much common ordinary backyard evidence could prove it wrong if they had taken the time to look. But they DON"T look, of course, because that would take away the one thing that would give their personal-insecurity issues credibility, like fear of the government, or paranoia of commercialism. (Or, in the SB's case, finding some outside commercialized "corrupting" influence that would explain all those nasty scary headlines in the news, and prove that that weird popular trend they were avoiding must've been worth avoiding after all.)
For example, the 'Busters did a memorable deconstruction of some of the more common "Faked Moon Landing" web-rumors, just using common ordinary science (with a little help from NASA):

[Show spoiler]

Mythbusters Moon Landing photo hoax 2 - YouTube

The most common urban-legend--tying us back into the thread not so much about goofy Southern Baptists as about why non-Baptist gigglers still keep believing them anyway twenty years later--is one of the most frequently identifiable categories for analysis classification: "Twisted Secrets of Your Childhood Favorites!"
Klan lyrics in the Grinch! Suicides in the Wizard of Oz! Totoro is the Grim Reaper! Cindy Brady became a prostitute! Marilyn Manson is Mr. Greenjeans's son (no, I didn't make that one up), and cast in the Willy Wonka remake!
It's not hard to guess the insecurity being covered up for that one--Especially when we get teens and twentysomethings on this board saying "I'd like to go see the new Pixar movie, but...there'll be, like, little kids in there!" Well, heavens, we don't want to be seen still enjoying anything below our age station, do we?--People might, y'know, laugh! Better to show how CYNICAL you can be about them, and how much less easily you can be "fooled" today than you used to be, that's what grownup experience can accomplish!
(Yep, we're not suckers, no one sure put one over on you, did they? )

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by EricJ

for the same reason radical Muslims pick on western influence, you don't want rival temptations stealing your audiences.)

Just to ask, what context are you using on that point? We all know that Islam and western influences are at clear loggerheads for obvious reasons, the principles on morality and right and wrong clearly run in many ways contrary to each other.

You don't have to be radical to pick up on that at all. Even moderates will tell you that their lives regularly run against what has been put in the book, but because it's a 'on balance', the hope is that they have done more good than bad and secure a place in heaven, rather than hell.

[Fellini912]

Actually, subliminal messages work more efficiently on adults than children. An adult can carry out the action where a child can not.

Can passivity and cynicism of our generation be a reflection of what the modern society wants of the general citizen? I ponder the question.

Have I become confortably numb?

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Just to ask, what context are you using on that point? We all know that Islam and western influences are at clear loggerheads for obvious reasons, the principles on morality and right and wrong clearly run in many ways contrary to each other.

Just by illustration, during some of the late-90's, one minor (they compete for attention, you know) Bible-belt church made a big provocative press stunt out of declaring "Pokemon is evil!" (because kids are controlling animals with "magic powers", you see)--Staging big public events burning cards and stuffed animals, and encouraging their young parishioners to symbolically "cleanse" a stuffed Pikachu with a silver sword.
When interviewed for the reason for these entertaining follies, the pastor, who felt himself on a rebellious roll at the time, petulantly told reporters, "Y'see, we (fundamentalist Christians) don't get as much MEDIA COVERAGE as your WWF WRESTLERS do!"
Er.....oops. Did someone just give away a little too much information?

In any organized "coup", religious or political, there is always one first step: Demonize the mainstream competition, because it'll probably make you look like an idiot by comparison a while down the road if you don't--Make people feel "evil" for enjoying the common things in life like movies or ice cream. That's probably why one of the first things medieval Catholicism and dictator/Soviet regimes went after was any "decadent" thoughts of sex, because let's face it, how is the tractor going to compete? With radical Muslims, it's not that they HATE Miss World bikini pageants or imported Hollywood films with such a personal passion, it's that they want to show how angry you can be about countries where women don't know their place, and how that can lead to rack and ruin!
With the SB's, the strategically corporatized offense plan was no different--Confused trend-illiterate moms saw their kids wooed away by cellphones, card games about magic, weird critters that zapped lightning, and some books and movies about teen vampires and kids with magic wands...Should they let their protectively sheltered kids see these things from their friends at school? Of course not, proclaims the higher ruling authority! You were right to instinctively fear such things, because they only helped corrupt that scary outside world and send that confused next generation farther off the path! Stick with us, we'll tell you the headlines you should worry about, and why they indicate the world will be ending three years from now! In fact, take no chances, school your kids at home, where you can be free from any liberal political bias that might be creeping into our public schools!

(And, like happened with other similar regimes, blue jeans and Elvis turned out to be more popular than devotion to the State.)

[NARMAK]

Sorry man, you just blasted me with a wall of text

With radical Muslims, it's not that they HATE Miss World bikini pageants or imported Hollywood films with such a personal passion, it's that they want to show how angry you can be about countries where women don't know their place, and how that can lead to rack and ruin!

Actually, i'm sure even feminists HATE the miss world bikini contest as much as radicals lol. Because it is not a form of 'freedom' as some purport it to be, but exploitation.

Also, the 'women don't know their place' stems NOT from religion, but CULTURE!, that just so happens to be what Britain and America also perpetuated in patriarchal society before they became 'enlightened'.

Islam, in it's purest form creates rules and regulations for a society to live in harmony. NOW, if you introduce culture into the mix, it's not going to work out as planned.

I live in the UK, so seeing sex, drinking blah blah blah, in movies, seems to be common. I KNOW it is sinful, but contrary to my religions stance, I seem to watch them, in the hopes as I mentioned that 'on balance', sins don't outweigh good deeds when I die.

Your ideology has to take into many facets of the society with which things originate. For instance, Dubai, is one of the most contradictory countries that claims to be Islamic and muslim oriented. You can tell because they allow so much stuff that runs opposite to their religion to happen and turn a blind eye.

It's NOT 'radical' to encourage a total lack of alcohol consumption by banning and making importation illegal, OR encouraging modesty and protection for vulnerable people by ensuring females are escorted by a male protector from the family.

I think most don't do enough background reading and infuse culture interference into their understanding of something too much.

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by EricJ

In any organized "coup", religious or political, there is always one first step: Demonize the mainstream competition, because it'll probably make you look like an idiot by comparison a while down the road if you don't--Make people feel "evil" for enjoying the common things in life like movies or ice cream. That's probably why one of the first things medieval Catholicism and dictator/Soviet regimes went after was any "decadent" thoughts of sex, because let's face it, how is the tractor going to compete? With radical Muslims, it's not that they HATE Miss World bikini pageants or imported Hollywood films with such a personal passion, it's that they want to show how angry you can be about countries where women don't know their place, and how that can lead to rack and ruin!
With the SB's, the strategically corporatized offense plan was no different--Confused trend-illiterate moms saw their kids wooed away by cellphones, card games about magic, weird critters that zapped lightning, and some books and movies about teen vampires and kids with magic wands...Should they let their protectively sheltered kids see these things from their friends at school? Of course not, proclaims the higher ruling authority! You were right to instinctively fear such things, because they only helped corrupt that scary outside world and send that confused next generation farther off the path! Stick with us, we'll tell you the headlines you should worry about, and why they indicate the world will be ending three years from now! In fact, take no chances, school your kids at home, where you can be free from any liberal political bias that might be creeping into our public schools!

(And, like happened with other similar regimes, blue jeans and Elvis turned out to be more popular than devotion to the State.)

Although I disagree with all the senseless radicalism that is occurring thoughout the world, I do not agree with your comment.

On the contrary, historically violent entertainment and over abundance of sexually content in art is used to detract people's attention from political issues.

I can go back to the roman civilization where the colosseum was placed by Titus and ruling class to entertain the masses, while they enjoyed exploiting their society and focus on the war campaigns. The nazis and Italians during the 1940s had abundant bordellos and cabarets. During Serbian-Bosnian war, pornography was shown on television for free, sponsored by the government.

Chris Hedges a war journalist in War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning, mentions these modern occurrences during war time.

If ladies want to wear bikinis, it's good (it is their freedom to do so). Do I want a society as decadent as the Romans? No.