Enter the Dragon (1973) (40th Anniversary Edition) (Remastered)

[nagysaudio]

Originally Posted by saltysam

they weren't taken from a torrent and i don't like yours or GeoffD's insinuation that they were.. i'm admittedly no screen cap expert and yes i agree my graphics card settings are no doubt wrong.however can you explain your initial post after seeing my clearly inaccurate caps??

Sure, I'll explain. With your initial screencaps, I had no point of reference except with the old Blu-ray release. And even though they look like crap, they're still better than that jaggy mess of the 2007 release. Now that we have proper screencaps, I can see that this release is very faithful to what a 35mm film looks like, in other words, the picture quality is excellent and completely the opposite of what you've posted.

If you're going to post screencaps, then you need to do it right. Otherwise you are misleading everyone. Furthermore, I don't see what the big issue is in taking proper screenshots. You can do it with the VLC player with one click.

We have all seen way to many instances where the screenshots posted before the actual release were from a pirated/leaked low quality torrent.

If you want to continue posting screenshots then be prepared to be called out. It is up to you to prove that you have a legitimate release, which you still have not done by the way.

[kdo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What concerns me is the precedent that it sets. Will Ken go back and smooth over any more of his old reviews that don't cut the mustard? Will any of the other reviewers on BR.com, for that matter? It just seems like an odd thing to do.

I really don't think so. Other than for a small handful of some of the earlier releases on the format, I can't imagine this type of behavior becoming commonplace.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I agree with HH. He's not saying that every new transfer HAS to be resized in this manner, but it's a method which I've seen advocated by a veteran VFX supervisor and it does have some merit. 2K is very close to HD in terms of resolution*, so instead of downsampling the image and risking the addition of a new set of artefacts, they can simply shave off the extra pixels. It's quicker too.

Sure, some outfits will have shit-hot algorithms for this kind of work and will set aside the time to use them properly. But with less time and money available, a decision may well be taken to crop a 2K master for HD instead of resizing it.

Anyhoo, EtD is not the first movie to have been cropped in this manner, nor will it be the last. As long as it's not a huge detriment to the framing, I can live with it. Heck, Alien has lost more pic info with every successive new transfer, but I'm not pining for those pixels when I play the blu-ray because it's just so darned good otherwise. And, given a choice of the two, I bet some folks would've preferred the restored-but-cropped Lowry version of GoldenEye on blu-ray instead of the DNR'ed-but-properly-framed version that we ended up with.

*albeit a 1.78, 1.85 or 2.39 deliverable, not a fullap scan

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that does help clear things up. However, regardless of the reasons for it, I still can't say I'm a fan of the cropping . A little is understandable, but "ETD" has been chopped quite a bit...

[saltysam]

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

Sure, I'll explain. With your initial screencaps, I had no point of reference except with the old Blu-ray release.

yet others here who also had no point of reference immediately cried foul.you didn't and found the caps good enough to make an instant,positive judgement.serious question,no one mentioned that my caps from the 2007 release looked dodgy so i'm puzzled as to why if they were accurate why the ones taken from the new release using the same method weren't??

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

and completely the opposite of what you've posted.

at the risk of repeating myself,your initial post was positive so clearly you must've been impressed on first sight?

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

If you're going to post screencaps, then you need to do it right. Otherwise you are misleading everyone.If you want to continue posting screenshots then be prepared to be called out

wow,just wow.you'd think i'd just killed someone! talk about anal.

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

We have all seen way to many instances where the screenshots posted before the actual release were from a pirated/leaked low quality torrent.

. It is up to you to prove that you have a legitimate release, which you still have not done by the way.

i really shouldn't have to prove anything to a random obsessive i've stumbled across on the interweb but i'll bite ....apologies in advance for the less than stellar photo,it's been taken at 6am something uk time with my crappy out of date wrongly calibrated iphone 3gs....is this enough proof? if so mabye you'll now apologise.

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

[Lantz]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I believe the cropping is a result of making sure there is no scaling or resolution loss coming from a 4K or even 2K scan since 1080p is 1920x1080. They either have to crop a little to make it fit, or would have to scale it which would cause resolution loss. Joe Kane talked about this recently in an interview in regards to 4K and UHD. I believe the same concept applies here. This is why all of these nice new transfers have a very slight amount of cropping compared to the old release which was scaled down. Very slight cropping is much preferable compared to losing picture resolution.

Oh, maybe that is the explanation. Either way, I think it's a shame it needs to happen.

[Lantz]

Originally Posted by djariya

Not sure if any of you may have an answer to this or not.

I know most Hong Kong movies pre-2000 were shot with no audio recording and the audio was later added in post production. Most of the time with new voice over actors.

Just curious, was that the case for Enter the Dragon even though it was released by Warner Brothers? Or was all the audio recorded on set? Some of the actors had to be posted in because they didn't speak English I assume?

I have the Bruce Lee Legendary Collection on BD and it has Enter the Dragon, but with only Cantonese and Mandarin audio.

I assume a great portion of ETD was dubbed in post-production due to the involvement of Asian actors, and most of those are clearly voiced-over (Shih Kien for example, who shares his husky voice with that of Bruce's father in the beginning, done by Keye Luke). Also, the sound effects are clearly patched on afterwards, not only obvious stuff such as punches and kicks, but sounds of people falling to the ground for example. In fact, if I recall correctly the same sounds of people falling are actually re-used throughout the film, which may sound a bit naff if you are picky.

I'd wager the same bank of sounds were used for "Game Of Death" later on in 1978, as they sound suspiciously identical.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by saltysam

serious question,no one mentioned that my caps from the 2007 release looked dodgy so i'm puzzled as to why if they were accurate why the ones taken from the new release using the same method weren't??

Well, I'd say that your VC-1 decoder is performing far better than your AVC one. Time to download a new codec pack, methinks.

salty, I asked you if it came from a rip, you said no, so I said you had something wrong with your settings. That's proved to have been the case, so I'll leave it there.

[skeprod224]

Originally Posted by djariya

Not sure if any of you may have an answer to this or not.

I know most Hong Kong movies pre-2000 were shot with no audio recording and the audio was later added in post production. Most of the time with new voice over actors.

Just curious, was that the case for Enter the Dragon even though it was released by Warner Brothers? Or was all the audio recorded on set? Some of the actors had to be posted in because they didn't speak English I assume?

I have the Bruce Lee Legendary Collection on BD and it has Enter the Dragon, but with only Cantonese and Mandarin audio.

WB had intended to film ETD with a sound crew on set but the actors and other crew members from Hong Kong would not be quiet enough to do this, so they decided to film it with no sound at all. So everything was dubbed in later. They did the dubbing in a WBs sound studio in Los Angeles. Lee dubbed his voice as did several others (Saxon, Kelly, Capri, etc.). The added scene (In every version since 1998) is John Little doing his best to imitate Lee.

I know Lee did not dub the Mandarin audio but I'm not sure about the Cantonese.

[drees5761]

The Cantonese audio track was done late 70's early 80's for the VHS / DVD release.

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What concerns me is the precedent that it sets. Will Ken go back and smooth over any more of his old reviews that don't cut the mustard? Will any of the other reviewers on BR.com, for that matter? It just seems like an odd thing to do.


I agree with HH. He's not saying that every new transfer HAS to be resized in this manner, but it's a method which I've seen advocated by a veteran VFX supervisor and it does have some merit. 2K is very close to HD in terms of resolution*, so instead of downsampling the image and risking the addition of a new set of artefacts, they can simply shave off the extra pixels. It's quicker too.

Sure, some outfits will have shit-hot algorithms for this kind of work and will set aside the time to use them properly. But with less time and money available, a decision may well be taken to crop a 2K master for HD instead of resizing it.

Anyhoo, EtD is not the first movie to have been cropped in this manner, nor will it be the last. As long as it's not a huge detriment to the framing, I can live with it. Heck, Alien has lost more pic info with every successive new transfer, but I'm not pining for those pixels when I play the blu-ray because it's just so darned good otherwise. And, given a choice of the two, I bet some folks would've preferred the restored-but-cropped Lowry version of GoldenEye on blu-ray instead of the DNR'ed-but-properly-framed version that we ended up with.

*albeit a 1.78, 1.85 or 2.39 deliverable, not a fullap scan

Not really a fan of the cropping on this new release but what you've explained makes sense. The new blu-ray to me looks superior in every other department compared to the old release. If only there were a best of both worlds where the new transfer isn't cropped. Who knows maybe it was an accident and Warners didn't mean to crop the image.

It wouldn't be the first time the studios cocked up a blu-ray release. If it was intentional I can live with it. It's not exactly a The Phantom Menace scenario. Man that DVD was cropped.

[HeroicWaffles]

I just ordered this and couldnt be happier. Im a huge brucelee fan and cant wait for this edition

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by skeprod224

WB had intended to film ETD with a sound crew on set but the actors and other crew members from Hong Kong would not be quiet enough to do this, so they decided to film it with no sound at all. So everything was dubbed in later. They did the dubbing in a WBs sound studio in Los Angeles. Lee dubbed his voice as did several others (Saxon, Kelly, Capri, etc.). The added scene (In every version since 1998) is John Little doing his best to imitate Lee.

I know Lee did not dub the Mandarin audio but I'm not sure about the Cantonese.

Lee's dubbing was done in HK, around the time he had the near fatal collapse. Even the re-added Monk scene at the beginning of the film, had an original Bruce-supplied, dub. Why they used John Little's often criticized voice over, is up to speculation. I've heard it mentioned Lee's original was damaged, however, a recent youtube fan edit utilized it.

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by MikeyLikesMovies

I just ordered this and couldnt be happier. Im a huge brucelee fan and cant wait for this edition

Just received mine today, and cannot wait to enjoy this, in lossless audio!... FINALLY!

[Member-222782]

I was browsing at a mom & pop video store and saw this set going for $48! . For that price I want Bruce Lee to come back from the dead and hand-deliver a signed copy to my office. BTW, what was wrong with the old artwork? Warner must be going for ugliest cover art of the year award.

[slamkeys]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

No part of his picture quality section is from the old review. It's a completely new and revised paragraph. It's blatant revisionism. I have to imagine he changed the score too as it's now 3 stars, and since he concluded that it's a faithful restoration and has an excellent video transfer, I have to assume that his original score was higher than that.

It's like he's ashamed that he scored it so high and wants to erase that from the history books. It's really a shameful practice. There's absolutely no need to alter the review from how it was written originally, and that goes for the score too. You can update it to mention the new remaster, but comppletely changing history? Shameful.

I ask Mr Brown to put the review back to how it was written originally, even if you praised it back then.

You can still view the original content in Wayback Machine's archives. He scored the video a 4.0.

I have to admit I didn't expect much from Enter the Dragon's 1080p/VC-1 transfer. However, it didn't take long for me to adjust my expectations and immerse myself in Warner's at-times gorgeous restoration of the famed classic. The first thing I scribbled in my notes was the word "skintones." Healthy, natural, and convincing, the actors' faces rarely suffer from overzealous saturation, and are never undernourished by underwhelming contrast. Lee's nighttime assault on Han's compound doesn't pop as brilliantly as some of the film's daylit scenes, but the graceful martial artist glides through the lair's cavernous shadows without a hitch. More importantly, the palette remains authentic, primaries are relatively stunning (Williams' yellow garb is a sight to behold), and blacks are quite striking.

Watch carefully when Lee takes on an entire school of Han's underlings -- Warner's transfer handles the furious gale of white and black-clad fighters with ease. Look closely as he advances through a deadly hall of mirrors -- the presentation never wavers, brandishing vibrant reds as readily as it produces revealing fine details. Moreover, edges are sharp, textures are surprisingly crisp, and digital anomalies (like artifacting and source noise) are few and far between. It's even a cinch to look past the lingering scratches and intermittent softness that afflicts the original print. Granted, some digital processing has cursed a handful of shots with an over-processed sheen, but it seldom detracts from the virtues of the presentation. All things considered, Enter the Dragon looks great (especially for a thirty-six-year old film) and should find a fitting home amongst your favorite high definition catalog titles.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by slamkeys

You can still view the original content in Wayback Machine's archives. He scored the video a 4.0.

Thanks for that! I searched through the Google Cache but couldn't find it. It's unfortunate that he changed it, but at least people can read what he wrote in the original review now.

[kdo]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Thanks for that! I searched through the Google Cache but couldn't find it. It's unfortunate that he changed it, but at least people can read what he wrote in the original review now.

And the funny thing is, I still think his original, pre-edited review of the previous disc is pretty accurate, at least regarding the colors and contrast levels (which have seemingly been tweaked for the worse on the new 40th anniversary release)...Granted, a 4.0 score was high for the video, but in my opinion, if he was going to do it, all he really needed to do on his old review was update it simply with something along these lines:

The new 40th anniversary edition basically differs from the 2007 disc in the following ways: it does not have jaggies, has a more filmlike presentation and lossless audio, has been moderately cropped, and has different color/contrast levels. In retrospect, I would now give the video quality of the 2007 Blu a 3.0 instead of a 4.0.

[Daredevil666]

My god, why is this zoomed? The original look zoomed too. There's no way a decent DP shot the film that way, it looks zoomboxed and badly at that. Also if this is a 4K scan, it's not from the neg or a first gen IP, the whole movie looks marginaly better than a DVD. Even the shots in the first Mad Max that do not involve dissolves looks 90% than these. There's no way this presentation does justice to the original negative. Early John Carpenter movies looks better than this in HD, and they were made for a fraction of the cost of ETD, using similar cameras.

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by HDvision

My god, why is this zoomed? The original look zoomed too. There's no way a decent DP shot the film that way, it looks zoomboxed and badly at that. Also if this is a 4K scan, it's not from the neg or a first gen IP, the whole movie looks marginaly better than a DVD. Even the shots in the first Mad Max that do not involve dissolves looks 90% than these. There's no way this presentation does justice to the original negative. Early John Carpenter movies looks better than this in HD, and they were made for a fraction of the cost of ETD, using similar cameras.

Yes, I won't argue that point.. Watched last night, putting the other version on first-the one that included A Warrior's Journey doc, and was amazed how they zoomed a number of shots.

Disappointing.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by The Dragon

Lee's dubbing was done in HK, around the time he had the near fatal collapse. Even the re-added Monk scene at the beginning of the film, had an original Bruce-supplied, dub. Why they used John Little's often criticized voice over, is up to speculation. I've heard it mentioned Lee's original was damaged, however, a recent youtube fan edit utilized it.

It was only pure luck that the scene was found at all - it was in wrongly marked cans in a building on the Warners lot scheduled for demolition and was nearly thrown out, but there was no soundtrack with them. A pretty exhaustive search was made through various archives in Hong Kong and ariound the world to see if they had a print that the soundtrack could be lifted from, but at the time one couldn't be found, and with the title one of the 12 key back-catalogue titles the studio was promoting in its 75th anniversary year they went with the dubbing option.

Since then, Bey Logan has said that Media Asia did find some outtakes and alternate scenes from the film in their archive, though it's unclear whether Lee's dub of the scene was among them. There were serious problems with the Hong Kong labs damaging the camera negative while the film was being shot and at the time it was in production Warners had serious concerns about the way the material was being stored, so whatever they found probably isn't in very good condition.

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by Aclea

It was only pure luck that the scene was found at all - it was in wrongly marked cans in a building on the Warners lot scheduled for demolition and was nearly thrown out, but there was no soundtrack with them. A pretty exhaustive search was made through various archives in Hong Kong and ariound the world to see if they had a print that the soundtrack could be lifted from, but at the time one couldn't be found, and with the title one of the 12 key back-catalogue titles the studio was promoting in its 75th anniversary year they went with the dubbing option.

Since then, Bey Logan has said that Media Asia did find some outtakes and alternate scenes from the film in their archive, though it's unclear whether Lee's dub of the scene was among them. There were serious problems with the Hong Kong labs damaging the camera negative while the film was being shot and at the time it was in production Warners had serious concerns about the way the material was being stored, so whatever they found probably isn't in very good condition.

Informative. The No Way As Way doc lifts some of the original dialogue while playing the Monk Clip. You can tell it sounds totally different than what plays during the movie. As Paul Heller stated "It's a wonder the film got made.."