4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

Heads-up for non-believers who are still skeptical of the merits of 2D -> 3D conversion, despite the rave reviews that Gravity has received (both from critics and astronauts alike),

or, on the other hand, for those locals who would just like to applaud and learn more about the technology behind this 3D motion picture (converted from 2D)….anyways, in either case,….come one, come all to Prime Focus ( http://primefocusworld.com/ ) in Hollywood from 4-7PM tomorrow for a drink and finger food in celebration of Gravity’s success. There’ll be several clips of their work and you’ll be able to speak with Richard Baker (the stereographer) and Matthew Bristow (the producer).

RSVP in advance at......info at primefocusworld.com.

[Penton-Man]

Yikes, people are already talking about CES 2014….http://advanced-television.com/2013/...ight-ultra-hd/

[TDSOTM]

Are all films shown in 4K theaters upconverted to 4K? Let's take Gravity, which was shot in 2.8K and had a 2K DI. Was it shown in 4K in 4K theaters?

Also, are Blu-ray discs of newer films sourced from the DCPs?

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by TDSOTM

Are all films shown in 4K theaters upconverted to 4K? Let's take Gravity, which was shot in 2.8K and had a 2K DI. Was it shown in 4K in 4K theaters?

Also, are Blu-ray discs of newer films sourced from the DCPs?

If the projector is 4K, I'd imagine the DCP was upconverted to 4K by the projector.

For new films, the Blu-ray is always from the DI. The DCP is just a downsampled/compressed version of the DI that is meant for theater use.

[TDSOTM]

So when the final version of the DI is completed, does it go straight to Blu-ray and DCP? Is any additional work done on the master? (color timing change, DNR, grain removal, etc.)

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by TDSOTM

So when the final version of the DI is completed, does it go straight to Blu-ray and DCP? Is any additional work done on the master? (color timing change, DNR, grain removal, etc.)

Usually, no. That's why you see studios that apply DNR or new color timing to their catalog releases leave their newer films as-is, because it requires no work to simply export the DI as a 1080p Blu-ray compliant video file.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by TDSOTM

So when the final version of the DI is completed, does it go straight to DCP?

It’s not ‘straight’. Here’s a dated article but, it should give you some idea as to the interim steps involved - http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/edcf_mastering_guide.pdf

And to those without post production knowledge, at least help define/explain the formats in this list - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...le#post7361454

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Usually, no. That's why you see studios that apply DNR or new color timing to their catalog releases leave their newer films as-is, because it requires no work to simply export the DI as a 1080p Blu-ray compliant video file.

Ain't that the truth. Pick up a Universal or Paramount show that was finished on a DI and it'll look terrific, but if it was finished on film there's a very good chance that they've ****ed with it somehow.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ain't that the truth. Pick up a Universal or Paramount show that was finished on a DI and it'll look terrific, but if it was finished on film there's a very good chance that they've ****ed with it somehow.

This was very apparent with the Star Trek: The Next Generation film set.

Generations (especially the 2nd half of the movie) and First Contact had a decent amount of DNR and sharpening applied to it, and Insurrection looked totally waxy as the DNR was off the charts. The last movie, Nemesis, looked beautiful as it was from the DI. The film grain was most intact and natural looking.

[Penton-Man]

To elaborate a bit more, once the digital master from the DI process is complete, it is used to source the HD video master with corrected color space. If it is scaled (rather than purely cropped) to the final 1920 resolution, then this can lead to a loss of picture sharpness.

Which is why some post houses sometimes apply a tad bit of artificial sharpening to the HD video master.

[BozQ]

Penton-Man, do flat movies (1.85 aspect ratio) in cinemas have 39 pixels on each side cropped when it's authored for Blu-ray, while scope movies (2.39) are rescaled to Full HD resolution?

[Penton-Man]

After the Captain Phillips typo flub you pointed out to me on the last page, I defer all formatting questions to Deci or others. Headed down to San Diego now anyhow.

[BozQ]

Have fun there!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Penton-Man, do flat movies (1.85 aspect ratio) in cinemas have 39 pixels on each side cropped when it's authored for Blu-ray, while scope movies (2.39) are rescaled to Full HD resolution?

Why would they crop one but scale the other due to the aspect ratio? If either is finished at 2K they would both have to be reformatted to fit the spatial resolution of HD video, which is something that true 4K material will also have to contend with when it's translated to UHD, e.g. 4096 horizontal pixels must become 3840. My UHD set can accept a 4096x2160 image but it's bordered, natch, as the 1.89 ratio won't fit on a 1.78 screen at 1:1.

Some prefer to crop to keep the image as sharp as possible (this may be why new transfers often end up showing less information on the sides than previous ones) while others prefer to scale, which can lead to issues as Penton said.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Why would they crop one but scale the other due to the aspect ratio? If either is finished at 2K they would both have to be reformatted to fit the spatial resolution of HD video, which is something that true 4K material will also have to contend with when it's translated to UHD, e.g. 4096 horizontal pixels must become 3840. My UHD set can accept a 4096x2160 image but it's bordered, natch, as the 1.89 ratio won't fit on a 1.78 screen at 1:1.

Some prefer to crop to keep the image as sharp as possible (this may be why new transfers often end up showing less information on the sides than previous ones) while others prefer to scale, which can lead to issues as Penton said.

A Full 2K resolution is 2048x1080. That is roughly 1.89 resolution.

To project flat movies digitally in 1.85 aspect ratio, the resolution used is 1998x1080 in cinemas.

For scope movies, the resolution used is 2048x858. (roughly 2.386, or 2.39)

What I've noticed is, flat movies in theaters are not distributed on Blu-ray in 1.85 aspect ratios any more. Considering how DCP flat resolution is pretty close to 1080p full HD, I wanted to clarify if the image is actually cropped in order to fit Blu-ray specs.

While scope movies on the other hand looked like it should be rescaled to fit Blu-ray.

Unless of course, there's a whole process involved that I've completely missed out, this does seem to make the most sense to me.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BozQ

A Full 2K resolution is 2048x1080. That is roughly 1.89 resolution.

To project flat movies digitally in 1.85 aspect ratio, the resolution used is 1998x1080 in cinemas.

For scope movies, the resolution used is 2048x858. (roughly 2.386, or 2.39)

What I've noticed is, flat movies in theaters are not distributed on Blu-ray in 1.85 aspect ratios any more. Considering how DCP flat resolution is pretty close to 1080p full HD, I wanted to clarify if the image is actually cropped in order to fit Blu-ray specs.

While scope movies on the other hand looked like it should be rescaled to fit Blu-ray.

Unless of course, there's a whole process involved that I've completely missed out, this does seem to make the most sense to me.

Well, Warners and Paramount have a habit of producing 1.78 Blu-rays but that's more for catalogue titles, no? I still see plenty of 1.85 DI titles preserved that way on Blu-ray.

Anyhoo, cropping will give you best results in either case, whether you're losing 50 pixels in 1.85 or 128 pixels in 2.35 (which is only 78 pixels difference between the two). That said, the DCP is the theatrical representation of the image, so - me not being an expert - who's to say that 1.85 2K movies aren't actually finished at 2048x1080 before being formatted for the DCP? [edit] But they wouldn't use the DCP as the basis for the home video version anyway, would they? As Penton said, where's Deci when you need him?

[Geoff D]

This ASC piece on Ron Howard's Rush sheds a little more light on the issue (see the bottom of the linked page). It's interesting that "panning-and-scanning" is mentioned in relation to creating the "1920x1080 HD master". Whether that's just shorthand for a 1.78 TV version or was a selective repositioning of the HD 2.40 master from the 2K 2.40 original (i.e. cropping instead of scaling), I don't know.

http://www.theasc.com/ac_magazine/Oc...Rush/page3.php

Just to answer my own question above, home video versions are derived from the Digital Source Master (DSM) rather than the Digital Cinema Distribution Master (DCDM) used in the DCP.

http://dcimovies.com/specification/D..._2012-1010.pdf (see page 20)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

where's Deci when you need him?

Undoubtedly, busy making money for Blu-ray.com

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Undoubtedly, busy making money for Blu-ray.com

Probably approving all my Data Base entry's I give him every weekend

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Acronyms ahoy!
Just to answer my own question above, home video versions are derived from the Digital Source Master (DSM) rather than the Digital Cinema Distribution Master (DCDM) used in the DCP.
http://dcimovies.com/specification/D..._2012-1010.pdf (see page 20)

The DCDM is the DSM modified a little so that its image and audio specifications
adhere to the industry standards outlined in the DCS spec.

Of significance is that when going from DCDM -> DCP, the film’s data is compressed by JPEG
2000 codec.

As an aside, few people know how/why 12 bits per color was chosen for the DCS Spec (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...cs#post8134717 )

For a glimpse into that, see around page 9….
http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/DCI%20...cs%20final.pdf

Anyone know how many (percentage-wise) viewers in that study could differentiate 8 bits, 10 bits, 11 bits and 12 bit samples? Any guesses?

Or, to dovetail that ^ into the topic of making Blu-ray (8 bit, 4:2:0) better by introducing 4K Blu-ray, what do you guys think will provide more improved picture quality to 8 bit, 4:2:0, if you had to choose one…8 bit -> 10 bit or 4:2:0 -> 4:2:2?