4K Movies Releases

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

Hmmm.. So I guess the 128 gig BDXL format is out of the question for 4K then.

This is for the DCP that is playing at theaters. No home format will have this same level of quality or lack of compression so a 128 GB disk would be more than enough for a consumer 4K disc format.

Look at Ender's Game. It is a 2K file that is 128 GB and the 1080p Blu-ray will clock in between 25-40 GB. 128 GB is a lot to work with for a 4K BD.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by singhcr

This is for the DCP that is playing at theaters. No home format will have this same level of quality of lack of compression so a 128 GB disk would be more than enough for a consumer 4K disc format.

Look at Ender's Game. It is a 2K file that is 128 GB and the 1080p Blu-ray will clock in between 25-40 GB. 128 GB is a lot to work with for a 4K BD.

Yup. And don't forget that this is without proper compression. DCP all use Motion JPEG2000 compression, while Blu-ray has a very efficient H.264 to work with. If we're fortune enough, H. 265.

128GB is sufficient.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Some folks at AVS has posted some info about the video on the Sony puck here. An excerpt:

File size                                : 44.0 GiB
Duration                                 : 2h 20mn
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 45.0 Mbps

So with a 100 GB of space and H.265 UBD should be OK with a average length 4K movie.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Some folks at AVS has posted some info about the video on the Sony puck...

I know a couple of the folks on that page. Good people. In fact, one of those guys paid for my lunch back in the day which was truly a nice gesture . Fine conversation too.

I feel old now. I remember mark haflich from a time he did a stint at the DOJ (Department of Justice), the life of leisure must be great even if you live in the boonies. Go Ravens!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, given we’re back to Digital Cinema ^, but for a tie-in to Blu-ray movies, some thought-provoked minds might ponder a….

Question - ’Since a lot of films are mastered in DCI P3 space (a-la Ender’s Game, watch starting at ~ 16 ½ min. mark of this fine clip by Michael - http://vimeo.com/78581143) for those unfamiliar with post production and deliverables).

And since time is money , ‘How long does it actually take a colorist at a post house to convert Digital Cinema P3 to rec709 (Blu-ray) for a Blu-ray master?

Multiple choice answer -

A. The colorist only needs to flip a switch on the magic machine, so it’s painless, brainless and not really a big deal. Minimal processing time.
B. Best to count on needing about 2 days.
C. ^ Two days? Hell no, at least 2 weeks would be more like it.
D. Penton, I have no freakin idea what you’re talking about, but I like the geeky Blu-ray deliverable discourse much more than you commenting about the most beautiful game (soccer) in 4K or otherwise. And who the hell is ‘the Arsenal’?
E. I aint responding , but I can’t help myself from at least reading this post as I am one of the silent lurkers who’ve moved this thread beyond the ¼ million viewer mark - https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24 despite the fact that, overall, there have been relatively few motion pictures finished in 4K… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=218262 , https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=goofy
F. D and E.

Nobody? lol, well then I guess a lot of people chose ‘E’ or ‘F’, or the question was just too difficult. In case the later, here’s an easier one –

Question #2: How many times will Sony use the term ‘4K’ (or UHD, for that matter) during the CES 2014 press conference (context - http://allthingsd.com/20131209/sony-...epage_carousel )

A. 5 or less
B. 6 to 10 times
C. More than 10 times (they need to drill it in)
D. I believe anything consumer 4k sucks in general because I have upgrade fatigue and/or I think the resolution thing is a gimmick, so, like in question #1, I won’t respond on principle.
E. I won’t respond because the question is beneath me esp. since I’m busy converting P3 to 709….for a Blu-ray master.
F. I’m an Apple fanboy - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technol...isplay-2907512

[saprano]

Nice video. I love technical stuff like that. Even though it's about digital workflow.

I would say the answer to your first question is C. These things take time.

Your second question is C also. PS4 better be in there too. They're missing a big opportunity to sell 4K to PS4 owners(well at least advertise since not a lot even have 4K TV's) since sales are really good right now. It's better than the PS3. You know the console that made bluray a success.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

Nice video. I love technical stuff like that. Even though it's about digital workflow.

I would say the answer to your first question is C. These things take time.

Your second question is C also. PS4 better be in there too. They're missing a big opportunity to sell 4K to PS4 owners(well at least advertise since not a lot even have 4K TV's) since sales are really good right now. It's better than the PS3. You know the console that made bluray a success.

A tip of the hat to Sap for being the first to come forward and take a stab at the questions.

I won’t reveal the correct answer to Question #1 until there is more participation but, meanwhile I’ll try to think of some kind of tidbit, even remotely film related, to reward you for being a ground breaker.

Question #2 should become self-evident after the 1st week in Jan., so all we need do is wait a few weeks for the executives to speak. Don’t be surprised though, as far as gadgets, if a virtual headset ala something like the Oculus Rift (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...us#post7844505), if not mentioned at this particular show, is hinted at one in the near future.

Yes, I agree with you on the PS4-4k thing. Also, another *missed opportunity* in terms of 4k Blu-ray spec would be, as I said before, to only use 8-bit - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...it#post8449434

Some SMPTE members are even more adamantly restrictive about that than me, for instance – “8-bit color should be “outlawed” for 4K….. http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...-update/221993 . Not that I agree with everything Pete said to the applauding engineers present but, he made some excellent points.

Also, keep in mind, one needs a minimum of 10-bit for HDR. But alas, consumer electronics companies yearn for maximum profit margins, early market entry and lowest consumer cost….i.e. the short term revenue syndrome.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BozQ

128GB is sufficient.

Yes, even for 4k 10-bit movie content.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I won’t reveal the correct answer to Question #1 until there is more participation but, meanwhile I’ll try to think of some kind of tidbit, even remotely film related, to reward you for being a ground breaker.

Heads-up and eyes open if you (and others reading) are planning on seeing The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug in 2D at their local 4K capable theater when it opens this coming Friday. I repeat, the 2D version of Hobbit 2 (which is 2K @ 24fps[traditional frame rate]).

The feature film should be preceded by 4 trailers for other movies, one of which is of 4K resolution (the others being in 2K). Ergo, see if one of the movie trailers appears noticeably sharper to your eyes than the others.

[singhcr]

My guess for the first question is A and C to the second.

[I KEEL YOU]

It's good to know that 128 GB will be sufficient..

If they decide to go with thr 128 gig BDXL, I seriously hope that there will be some encoded requirement within H. 265, not making it possible to encode 4K material on a bit rate of under 40 mbps.

And something I still can't figure out is whether BDXL will require a hardware upgrade, or just software. If it requires a hardware upgrade, then isn't it essentially a brand new physical format?

Sony have said that the PS4 will be 4K compatible so shouldn't it be able to cope with BDXL, if they decide to go with it?

[vargo]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

And something I still can't figure out is whether BDXL will require a hardware upgrade, or just software. If it requires a hardware upgrade, then isn't it essentially a brand new physical format?

BDXL discs cannot be played in regular Bluray drives. And regular Bluray players cannot decode HEVC, and can not decode or output anything in 4K (with the obvious exception of upscaling players but they still cannot decode anything 4K). These are hardware limits, it is physically impossible.

Sony have said that the PS4 will be 4K compatible so shouldn't it be able to cope with BDXL, if they decide to go with it?

There's no information that the PS4 optical drive is BDXL capable. That is one of the things which made a physical 4K format seem less likely in the near future.

[I KEEL YOU]

If it ultimately is a hardware restriction, then why the hell is there any hype whatsoever about BDXL, since it would pretty much basically be a new physical format? Wouldn't it be better to have a proper 4K physical format then that has hundreds of gigabytes of space and can have 100 mbps bit rates?

[vargo]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

If it ultimately is a hardware restriction, then why the hell is there any hype whatsoever about BDXL, since it would pretty much basically be a new physical format? Wouldn't it be better to have a proper 4K physical format then that has hundreds of gigabytes of space and can have 100 mbps bit rates?

I wouldn't say there is any hype surrounding it. BDXL is a write-once disc format, the only relevance to a hypothetical consumer disc format is simply that it demonstrates that a 3 or 4 layer disc is feasible right now from a technical standpoint. Its not one of those vapourware high-capacity discs that get announced every few years. It uses proven technology.

If 3 or 4 layer consumer playback discs came out they wouldn't even be called BDXL.

Regarding what would be better or not, it's all just speculation right now.

[Steedeel]

Hypothetical question to Penton man or anyone else for that matter. Do you think if bluray penetration had remained at 30 percent YOY (like it was earlier in year) up until December would the 4k process have been implemented faster?

I can't help feeling the policy is 'wait and see'. Just my opinion, hope I am wrong.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Some folks at AVS has posted some info...

Geez Wendell, you didn’t tell me they’ve got drama over there too in those elite projector threads...“When you worked for Alan Gouger, you were paid to troll all day which now that you don't work for Alan you still troll all day and you are picking on me?” – http://www.avsforum.com/t/1492355/of...#post_24054853

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

My guess for the first question is A and C to the second.

Sing, zee machines aren’t that magical even if you use an accurate mathematical P3 -> 709 conversion, as you still need to do a trim pass which takes colorist time (~ $7,500/day). Think more involving and time-consuming than ‘A’ for Question #1.

However I commend you both for stepping up to the plate to take your swings though, as that’s a good way to learn something new and remember it. Question #1 is not easy and one needs first-hand experience or deep knowledge in the business to confidently answer it. As to Question #2, now I can just envision Phil (and other execs) counting the actual number of their ‘4k’ references in their CES spiels during their rehearsal prep(s) for the news conference….too few? ...too many ?

Sony aside, I’m thinking that many here would be happy just to hear ‘4k’ uttered once in an official statement by the BDA at CES 2014 in regards to confirming plans to implement (in due course) rather than just 'feasibility study consideration', given what statement from last April that I think Paul.R.S was referring to a couple pages back - http://www.cnet.com.au/blu-ray-set-t...-339344088.htm

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Hypothetical question to Penton man or anyone else for that matter. Do you think if bluray penetration had remained at 30 percent YOY (like it was earlier in year) up until December would the 4k process have been implemented faster?

I can't help feeling the policy is 'wait and see'. Just my opinion, hope I am wrong.

Well that aspect of it is not my department so I’ll defer to those with such business expertise, but my feeling is that the duration of the process for 4k implementation is related more so to the engineering for delivery eventually settling out and coming to fruition.

It would be rather embarrassing though if 4k Blu-ray was spec-ed inferior to 4k broadcast or VOD services -
http://www.ateme.com/IMG/pdf/2013_he...beyond_hd_.pdf

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

http://www.ateme.com/IMG/pdf/2013_he...beyond_hd_.pdf

I forgot to mention to film grain loving screenshot scientists who enjoyed using the phrase “DNR knob” for oh so many years but, have gotten a leeeettle tired of it since it has become so hackneyed. Well, with HEVC you’ve got yourselves a new phrase ….”the film grain button”, or more accurately the *Film grain characteristics SEI message*.

It’s covered in more detail in D.3.13 of the ITU rec for H.265 than in the above linked SMPTE presentation paper.

[vargo]

It is basically fake grain added by the playback device. A little bit more complicated but that should suffice for the layman.

It is hopefully only relevant for low bitrate content.