4K Movies Releases

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Good to see you back and the same to you . I hope you enjoyed your holiday. Newest news to return to here is that officially (and for Blu-ray fans you can’t get much more official than the Blu-ray Disc Association), officially, the BDA views 4K streaming as "complimentary" to 4K Blu-rays.

With said news, I suggest you take 2-4 teaspoons of Maalox or Mylanta or whatever Aluminum/Magnesium antacid they have there at your pharmacy in the U.K., repeat if needed, no more than 4 times in a 24 hr. period and call me if there is no relief.

As to my Premier League football following, I’m up to about the 70 min. mark of the Chelsea vs Liverpool match (whatever day that occurred). Don’t tell me the final score but did you watch it on TV and, if so, did you see how many advertisements Samsung had for their OLED tvs? Wow! Millions must have watched that match and seen OLED repeatedly advertised on those touchline billboards.

Yes I saw. Penton man, what is your take on the SD netflix subscription news. I see it as a huge development. In the Uk a standard def only feed (if released to everyone) will be £4.99 (roughly, going by the US offer) No doubt lovefilm and sky's now tv will retaliate with even cheaper SD streaming packages. This is phase 1 of that nightmare scenario I have mentioned (a few times) just imagine £3.99 packages of SD fare. Only suitable for smartphones, arguably tablets of the smaller variety and those smartwatches I mention. So rather than forward thinking 4K, backwards tech is also being catered for. Cheap and nasty wins the day, so I see this as worrying times. I am hoping 4k is not irrelevant to the upcoming generation.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yes I saw. Penton man, what is your take on the SD netflix subscription news....

Well, I guess we should all view it as ‘complimentary’ to another form of packaged media….DVDs.

Lots of streaming in the news today - http://gigaom.com/2014/01/02/youtube-4k-streaming-vp9/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Another thought-provoking question not just to our fine Blu-ray.com members but also to

Sooooo, other than justifiably wished for basic video upgrades to a 4K Blu-ray format like 10 bit bit depth distribution spec, the question is, regarding more advanced technological enhancements to general 4k TV watching (not cinema content, per se)….what do folks envision in their crystal balls as to having the best chance of arriving the soonest to consumer displays in peoples’ homes?

A. HDR (high dynamic range, see previous posts back from several days to months ago)
B. HFR (meaning at least 100/120 fps capture and distribution, not HFR as in Hobbit (only 48fps)

or

C. WCG (wide color gamut, i.e. B.T.2020 which represents Sap’s favorite primary color coordinates… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...re#post6666854

Of those listed ^, whatcha think will come first as a consumer product? Especially once 4K sales eventually disappoint, which in time they will, and TV manufacturers are forced to upgrade basic 4K. I mean they’ll all eventually come someday, in some form, because we’re not stuck with low dynamic range 60fps Rec.709 parameter consumer content and display forever....although some videophiles already with upgrade fatigue might hope so.

It’s not an easy question, but the difficult ones are often the best. I'm not sure there is a 'right' answer because things can always change but given knowledge of current hurdles of implementation to all these picture quality enhancements, I think there is a 'best' guess.

^ P.S.
To be clear, as to HFR capable displays, I’m not talking about internal processing, like motion compensated frame interpolation, I’m referring to displays which can accept a native 120Hz signal and show that 120 content without any processing such as interframe creation.

As to HDR capable displays, I’m not talking about perceptual HDR Dolby-type(or a variant of such) encoding at the post production level for mastering, which may in time become standardized and then in more time eventually perhaps be actually implemented (and not become one of those internal standards which are a bridge to nowhere), no, I’m talking about consumer displays that are capable of peaking at at least 4,000 nits like Dolby’s heavily publicized prototype monitor which has been in the news recently, or the now, relatively ‘old news’ to HDR followers, Sim HDR47E S 4K – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...im#post8561386

As to the WCG of B.T.2020, that should be self-evident to those with knowledge of Pointer’s surface colors…. http://dot-color.com/2013/07/16/how-...erceive-color/. Also keeping in mind, as an enhancement, does it have the same upgrade video quality value as that of HFR or HDR?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Another thought-provoking question not just to our fine Blu-ray.com members but also to

Sooooo, other than justifiably wished for basic video upgrades to a 4K Blu-ray format like 10 bit bit depth distribution spec, the question is, regarding more advanced technological enhancements to general 4k TV watching (not cinema content, per se)….what do folks envision in their crystal balls as to having the best chance of arriving the soonest to consumer displays in peoples’ homes?

A. HDR (high dynamic range, see previous posts back from several days to months ago)
B. HFR (meaning at least 100/120 fps capture and distribution, not HFR as in Hobbit (only 48fps)

or

C. WCG (wide color gamut, i.e. B.T.2020 which represents Sap’s favorite primary color coordinates… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...re#post6666854

Of those listed ^, whatcha think will come first as a consumer product? Especially once 4K sales eventually disappoint, which in time they will, and TV manufacturers are forced to upgrade basic 4K. I mean they’ll all eventually come someday, in some form, because we’re not stuck with low dynamic range 60fps Rec.709 parameter consumer content and display forever....although some videophiles already with upgrade fatigue might hope so.

It’s not an easy question, but the difficult ones are often the best. I'm not sure there is a 'right' answer because things can always change but given knowledge of current hurdles of implementation to all these picture quality enhancements, I think there is a 'best' guess.

Penton man, why do you think 4K sales will disappoint?

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Penton man, why do you think 4K sales will disappoint?

There isn't a substantial amount of 4K content being sold. People will eventually want consumer content to make their investment worth their purchase.
There is only so much upscaling hardware or software can deliver. Many studios blew it when recent string of movies are being mastered in 2K.
Sony is the closest in pushing for 4K by releasing their "Mastered in 4K" line of Blu-ray. But even that's not native 4K.

And it also doesn't help when neither PlayStation 4 nor Xbox One are delivering 4K gaming.

I don't expect 4K sales to improve much unless a miracle happens.

[Toptube]

Originally Posted by BozQ

There isn't a substantial amount of 4K content being sold. People will eventually want consumer content to make their investment worth their purchase.
There is only so much upscaling hardware or software can deliver. Many studios blew it when recent string of movies are being mastered in 2K.
Sony is the closest in pushing for 4K by releasing their "Mastered in 4K" line of Blu-ray. But even that's not native 4K.

And it also doesn't help when neither PlayStation 4 nor Xbox One are delivering 4K gaming.

I don't expect 4K sales to improve much unless a miracle happens.

there isn't a ton of 4k ckntent right now, because decent quality 4k sets, at prices that he middle class might swing at, have only been around For a few months. there wo t be a lot of 4k publishing until there is a way for people to use it.

and then there is the proble. of how to delkver the content I a way that makes sense and allows enough extra quality to be justified. a big issue is that even though h.265 is 50% more efficient in compression, that isn't enough to cover the amount of extra pixels and keep skmilar bit rates and sjmklar relative quality as 1080p. the videos will be LARGE. a lot of people will have trouble sfreaming netflix 4k. and a straight download of a blu-ray would already be too long. a disc based solution is needed for the masses (because base broadband speed upgrade roadmaps barely exist) as well as for those concerned with top level image quality.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by BozQ

There isn't a substantial amount of 4K content being sold. People will eventually want consumer content to make their investment worth their purchase.
There is only so much upscaling hardware or software can deliver. Many studios blew it when recent string of movies are being mastered in 2K.
Sony is the closest in pushing for 4K by releasing their "Mastered in 4K" line of Blu-ray. But even that's not native 4K.

And it also doesn't help when neither PlayStation 4 nor Xbox One are delivering 4K gaming.

I don't expect 4K sales to improve much unless a miracle happens.

I hope we don't regress to SD. If cheap streaming options of SD only are popular at pathetically low prices like £2.99 a month or slightly higher the mainstream might forget about HD altogether. Or maybe even not bother with TV sets and watch tablets instead where the difference is less obvious.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Toptube

there isn't a ton of 4k ckntent right now, because decent quality 4k sets, at prices that he middle class might swing at, have only been around For a few months. there wo t be a lot of 4k publishing until there is a way for people to use it.

and then there is the proble. of how to delkver the content I a way that makes sense and allows enough extra quality to be justified. a big issue is that even though h.265 is 50% more efficient in compression, that isn't enough to cover the amount of extra pixels and keep skmilar bit rates and sjmklar relative quality as 1080p. the videos will be LARGE. a lot of people will have trouble sfreaming netflix 4k. and a straight download of a blu-ray would already be too long. a disc based solution is needed for the masses (because base broadband speed upgrade roadmaps barely exist) as well as for those concerned with top level image quality.

Well I am certainly a quality purist so here is hoping for a good outcome.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BozQ

There isn't a substantial amount of 4K content being sold. People will eventually want consumer content to make their investment worth their purchase.
There is only so much upscaling hardware or software can deliver. Many studios blew it when recent string of movies are being mastered in 2K.
Sony is the closest in pushing for 4K by releasing their "Mastered in 4K" line of Blu-ray. But even that's not native 4K.

And it also doesn't help when neither PlayStation 4 nor Xbox One are delivering 4K gaming.

I don't expect 4K sales to improve much unless a miracle happens.

Boz, I’m referring more to after basic 4K content (be it Blu-ray, streamed, downloaded) becomes more commonplace. Currently, there is a curiosity from consumers as to the upgrade in picture quality with 4K, even though content is meager at this point in time. Even after that, when 4K content as it’s known today, becomes more readily accessible, I see a day coming (in years, perhaps 2018?) when the *newness* of 4K video wears off and another *wow factor* so-to-speak for TV sales is needed. And when that day comes, question is which advanced parameter will be next for 4K, or, in other words, what will drive 4K to really be legitimately called ‘UHD’ and UHD getting an adoption rate (in the homes) more similar to that as was with SD -> HD?

I mean curved 4K TVs or Sony's xvYCC color just won’t cut it. There may be no urgency for consumers to think about such things presently, but research labs and TV manufacturers have to be working on this conundrum now, in order to be prepared for when that day comes. You can ride the basic 4K bandwagon for only so long.

I don’t have the numbers for 2013 but I do know that for 2012, that was the first year that LCD sales fell….ever (and LCDs make up the VAST majority of TV sales). Not much, but they dropped instead of increasing. Also, total global TV shipments fell over 6% for the year 2012 and the drop would have been substantially more if not for the Chinese consumer.

4K is/was an attempt to reinvigorate TV sales, just like selling 3D TVs was when they were first introduced. Debaters and bloggers can argue on other threads all day long as to whether 4K is just a marketing ploy or a legitimately obvious step up in picture quality over HD. No matter which is true, 4K sales will eventually disappoint in due course. I can’t see consumers getting HFR, HDR and WCG all at the same time in one bucket (ala Rec. ITU-R B.T.2020) to reinvigorate the display marketplace. They do all have one thing in common, but beyond that, each has different hurdles to overcome for implementation into the home….which will not all be solved on the same time scale....and consumer electronics display manufacturers live by year-to-year sales. That is why I posed the question as to which will come first.

I’ll add something else for some perspective as to the importance of this line of thought. If people think 4K rez is ‘good’, then HFR and HDR is ‘great’ because strict scientific testing, as well as a larger sample of anecdotal observations by professions, indicate both provide about twice the picture quality improvement as that of HD -> 4K resolution.

These parameters are the next frontier in increased picture quality, rather than marginal picture improvements by individual TV manufacturers which you’ll undoubtedly be seeing in the interim.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...Lots of streaming in the news today - http://gigaom.com/2014/01/02/youtube-4k-streaming-vp9/

Given the above, I’m feeling a bit sorry ^ for the JCT-VC and HEVC today.

Ergo – HEVC Main 10 (some background - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...nd#post8430612) decoders cometh forth in consumer devices….http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/lg-hevc-201401033549.htm

[Penton-Man]

So, inquiring minds might ask themselves (like they did during the days of AVC vs. VC-1), which codec is best? Ah, brings tears to my eyes just thinking of thee ole days with Amir et. al.

Anyway, of the independent (rather than advertisements or infomercials by self-vested proponents of either codec), scientific testing I’ve read, there is evidence of HEVC being superior to VP9 for the objective parameters so far measured in this early age of new generation codecs.

For instance – http://maxsharabayko.blogspot.com/20...-hevc-vp9.html
if the above paper ^ is a bit too technical for folks then scroll to the bottom and read the Conclusion (acronyms meaning, HM = HEVC, JM = AVC, VP9 = obviously VP9).

And a follow-up study two months later - http://www.m-hikari.com/ams/ams-2013...7-140-2013.pdf

Also, I personally think HEVC is technically superior because it has a Wavefront Parallel Processing feature, and VP9 doesn’t …. http://www.parabolaresearch.com/blog...animation.html , and, if anything, the slo-mo animation is cool.

[Penton-Man]

For pre-show stuff and such, I’ll be leaving today, after watching a certain FA Cup match between north Londoners, for the Disruptive Technology Show http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...-trends-668267. I'll be back.

Later.

[vargo]

I will be surprised if VP9 can beat a good H.264 encoder in 2014, let alone HEVC. And not necessarily for codec design reasons but for all the same things that caused VP8 to suck so badly.

[Richard Paul]

The final meeting for the HEVC range extensions will take place later this month and Sony has posted a document on what profiles they would like to see in the standard. Sony mentions that all of the 12-bit HEVC profiles are considered to be consumer profiles (though the CE companies will decide which profiles to support). I think there is a good chance that the Main 12 profile will eventually be used for consumer video.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sooooo, other than justifiably wished for basic video upgrades to a 4K Blu-ray format like 10 bit bit depth distribution spec, the question is, regarding more advanced technological enhancements to general 4k TV watching (not cinema content, per se)….what do folks envision in their crystal balls as to having the best chance of arriving the soonest to consumer displays in peoples’ homes?

A. HDR (high dynamic range, see previous posts back from several days to months ago)
B. HFR (meaning at least 100/120 fps capture and distribution, not HFR as in Hobbit (only 48fps)

or

C. WCG (wide color gamut, i.e. B.T.2020 which represents Sap’s favorite primary color coordinates… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...re#post6666854

Of those listed ^, whatcha think will come first as a consumer product?

Of the three my guess is that WCG will happen sooner. WCG is something that could happen in 2 or 3 years if the CE companies decide to support it.

HFR is less likely since there is resistance to anything higher than 24 fps in Hollywood. Even James Cameron decided to record only some scenes of his Avatar sequels at 48 fps and he was one of the most vocal supporters for HFR. While a few European broadcasters are considering 100 fps they are also planning to have a phased introduction for UHDTV (with HFR getting added in the second phase) so HFR looks like it is at least 5 years out.

HDR is the least likely to happen since there are no real standards for it and the only major company promoting it is Dolby. The costs to make a 4,000 nits display is very high so I don't see how they could hope to make affordable consumer displays for it.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ll add something else for some perspective as to the importance of this line of thought. If people think 4K rez is ‘good’, then HFR and HDR is ‘great’ because strict scientific testing, as well as a larger sample of anecdotal observations by professions, indicate both provide about twice the picture quality improvement as that of HD -> 4K resolution.

I am skeptical about HDR since even if HDR displays could be made affordable it seems like something that would be easily abused by advertisers. It is hard to regulate advertisements on broadcast TV and it is impossible to regulate them on the internet.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by vargo

I will be surprised if VP9 can beat a good H.264 encoder in 2014, let alone HEVC. And not necessarily for codec design reasons but for all the same things that caused VP8 to suck so badly.

Truly…..and again for non-compressionists who find peer-reviewed science a bit difficult, just skip to the Conclusion. This presented at a coding symposium in San Jose less than a month ago - http://iphome.hhi.de/marpe/download/...3_preprint.pdf

So, anyway, we’re on our way to the city that Bugsy Siegel built. The marketing show of shows awaits! My greatest disappointment is that the 2014 Adult Entertainment Expo (http://trade.adultentertainmentexpo....31&tpl=article) this year doesn’t coincide with CES as in years past.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

my guess is...

Richard Paul ....the same Richard Paul from the days of the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD format war, Insider’s Threads, etc.? On the later note, they tell me Club Penton blasted through the 3 million viewer barrier mark… https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61.

Nice guess. Good stuff. I’ll try to add a little bit more regarding other hurdles to implementing each parameter which you haven’t mentioned, when I get back. We’re trying to get on the road before the sun goes down.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Richard Paul ....the same Richard Paul from the days of the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD format war, Insider’s Threads, etc.?

Yep, and as someone who is interested in the future of video I have tried to keep up to date with UHDTV since it has a lot of potential.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Nice guess. Good stuff. I’ll try to add a little bit more regarding other hurdles to implementing each parameter which you haven’t mentioned, when I get back. We’re trying to get on the road before the sun goes down.

I am interested in the Rec. 2020 color space since it sounds like a big improvement that could be seen on UHDTVs a few years from now. There are likely several problems with using a wide color space in terms of properly displaying it (since most flat panels could only display 60% to 80% of it) and it would require more advanced video processing but it looks like it could happen in 2 or 3 years.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, inquiring minds might ask themselves (like they did during the days of AVC vs. VC-1), which codec is best? Ah, brings tears to my eyes just thinking of thee ole days with Amir et. al.

Amir would certainly dismiss your referenced report because of the PSNR charts. I remember dr1394 (a.k.a., drmpeg, Ron) would post some of his test results using PSNR and Amir (and his colonies) would go into long-winded mode of why PSNR test were invalid.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sooooo, other than justifiably wished for basic video upgrades to a 4K Blu-ray format like 10 bit bit depth distribution spec, the question is, regarding more advanced technological enhancements to general 4k TV watching (not cinema content, per se)….what do folks envision in their crystal balls as to having the best chance of arriving the soonest to consumer displays in peoples’ homes?

A. HDR (high dynamic range, see previous posts back from several days to months ago)
B. HFR (meaning at least 100/120 fps capture and distribution, not HFR as in Hobbit (only 48fps)

or

C. WCG (wide color gamut, i.e. B.T.2020 which represents Sap’s favorite primary color coordinates… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...re#post6666854

Of those listed ^, whatcha think will come first as a consumer product?

I was thinking along the same lines as Mr Paul: HDR will be last (if at all) because it's just one company banging the drum so far. HFR @ 100/120fps will need another revision to the HDMI spec (IIRC) or even a completely different connector which probably won't happen anytime soon. WCG is the easiest of the lot to implement here and now, but, as Mr Paul said, we probably won't see 100% of its potential due to the technological strictures of current display tech.

With the latter point in mind Penton, I think you're bang-on about the possibility of a two (or more ) tier system of UHD. We'll get the lite version that won't require any heroics re: frame rates, colour gamut etc, for the simple reason that the hardware is still very much mired in the 'good enough' way of thinking. As/when the 4K uptake slows down, the manufacturers will be forced to break out the big guns and give us some proper advances in terms of the things discussed above.

[BozQ]

CES is underway and... Michael Bay is stealing the headlines for all the wrong reasons.