Official Film Noir on Blu-ray Thread

[joie]

A Panorama of American Film Noir 1941-1953 has been translated into English and has an an 18-page introduction written by James Naremore. The intro discusses the difficulties of classification. Some might even say that film noir is not a genre.

The book's French authors, discoverers of the "genre," Raymond Borde and Etienne Chaumeton only recognized these film noirs: The Maltese Falcon; This Gun for Hire; Journey into Fear; Murder, My Sweet; Ministry of Fear; Phantom Lady; The Mask of Dimitrios; Lady in the Lake; Notorious; Gilda; The Big Sleep; Somewhere in the Night; Dead Reckoning; Ride the Pink Horse; Out of the Past; Dark Passage; The Lady from Shanghai; Sorry, Wrong Number; The Big Clock; Chicago Deadline and The Window.

The author's classify many other 4:3 black and white, crime films from the period as Crime Films in Period Costume (Gaslight, Laura, ...), Gangsters (White Heat, The Enforcer, Asphalt Jungle, The Big Heat, ...), Police Documentaries (Crossfire, The Naked City, ...) and Social Tendencies (The Lost Weekend, Crossfire, ...)

I'm not saying youse guys is wrong. I don't know why they didn't list The Dark Corner, And I cannot fathom how Ministry of Fear got into the list.

The English translation has the authors' postface of 1979, too. ISBN 9780872864122

oops! Laura is classified as a Criminal Psychology film, along with Rebecca, Suspicion, Double Indemnity, The Postman Always Rings Twice, ...

The book also has a filmography of several dozen pages, so the authors appear to have been American movie fans

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by joie

And I cannot fathom how Ministry of Fear got into the list.

Ministry of Fear did not strike me as a film noir early on during my first viewing, aside from the visual similarities, but it pulls a rather nifty femme fatale plot element out of its hat late in the story. That's all that I'll say right now, but that scene endeared me to the idea of classifying this one as a film noir.

I have Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir by Eddie Muller here at home. It's an excellent read, but it also pulls the noir curtain away from a few movies that have always been generally acknowledged as film noirs. The Big Sleep is one such film that the book indicates is not a noir. I cannot bring myself to make that leap, though, because The Big Sleep is one of those films that comes to mind right off the bat whenever I think about film noir. I understand the logic, and I also think that The Big Sleep is a screwy movie in a few ways (albeit a wonderfully screwy movie), but it just seems to go hand in hand with the general vibe of the genre.

Originally Posted by joie

oops! Laura is classified as a Criminal Psychology film, along with Rebecca, Suspicion, Double Indemnity, The Postman Always Rings Twice, ...

I'd love to read this book, but I cannot fathom classifying Double Indemnity as anything other than a film noir.
For me, Double Indemnity is like Film Noir 101, and it encapsulates all of the conventions in one beautifully-wrapped box.

I just revisited Double Indemnity earlier tonight (by way of the old DVD, since I'm a Region A Blu-ray guy), and it just seems to stand out as a lead example of what to look for in a noir.

[MifuneFan]

Pro-B also notes Ministry of Fear as a film noir in his review..

The script for this early noir film directed by Fritz Lang is a bit uneven. There is this domino effect where one event typically leads to another and then another, but Lang does not always reveal why they occur or what roles the different players in them have. The approach, however, enhances rather well the sense of paranoia that enters the film after the man with the cake is killed.

Noir fans should have a great time with it as it is quite dark and stylishly lensed. The film's new 2K digital restoration is excellent, but a few more supplemental features on this release would have been great to have. Still, Ministry of Fear is very easy to recommend. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

There are many other sources that also consider it a noir, so I'd say more people consider it film noir than don't. The book that joie mentions is obviously very strict in its definitions of what film noir should be. Perhaps the authors classifications have not evolved with the genre itself.

[joie]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Pro-B also notes Ministry of Fear as a film noir in his review..

There are many other sources that also consider it a noir, so I'd say more people consider it film noir than don't. The book that joie mentions is obviously very strict in its definitions of what film noir should be. Perhaps the authors classifications have not evolved with the genre itself.

I saw the Criterion disc twice and disagree about it being film noir, yet I don't mind if others think it is. When I came here (2011?) the site only had about 50 film noirs llisted -- now there are hundreds! The book's intro describes the difficulties of classification, and the term can be used as a sales tool. I am inclined to think film noir isn't a genre but a style. The French authors' work can be said to be flawed, too, especially in light of Naremore's intro to the English translation.

[UNCMT9]

Great work, Mifune!

[kaseaver]

"I cannot fathom classifying Double Indemnity as anything other than a film noir.
For me, Double Indemnity is like Film Noir 101"

Owl, I couldn't agree more. If Double Indemnity isn't classic film noir, I don't know what would be. That and Out of the Past (nice avatar btw) are my 2 favorite films.

[Oscar Rothman]

"The Official What's the Definition of Noir Thread"

[MifuneFan]

Update #1 is now complete

Additions:

Leave Her to Heaven (1945)
The Lost Weekend (1945)
Strange Love of Martha Ivers (1946)
Brighton Rock (1947)
Brute Force (1947, German BD release)
Odd Man Out (1947, British BD release)
They Made Me a Fugitive (1947)
Body and Soul (1947)
Ruthless (1948)
The Red House (1948)
The Red Menace (1949)
Champion (1949)
Night and the City (1950, German BD release)
No Man of her Own (1950)
Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye (1950)
The File on Thelma Jordon (1950)
Strangers on a Train (1951)
Stranger on the Prowl (1952)
Man in the Dark 3D (1953)
Riot in Cell Block 11 (1954)
Night of the Hunter (1955)
Crashout (1955)
Diabolique (1955)
The Killing/Killer's Kiss (1956)
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1956)
Plunder Road (1957)
Vertigo (1958)

Removed:
You Only Live Once (19367) - It's a precursor to the genre

Contributions: Also new is membernoirjunkie's interpretation of Film Noir, which can be read in the Film Noir Defined section

Formatting changes:

• As mentioned on the previous change, British and International Film Noirs will now be designated with their country's respective flags
• In order to better classify the transition period between Classic Noir, and Neo-noir, the 1940's and 1950's sections will now have the heading "Classic Period: The 19X0's". Films that are in the 1960's and later will be under the heading "The Later Period: 1960's and Beyond" I think that makes better sense, since there are some during that time that aren't your typical film noir, but also aren't neo-noir either.

I'll be updating, and fine tuning the Neo-noir section in my next update, as well as adding any other movies mentioned recently that didn't get into this update, plus any other suggestions you guys make going forward of course. I'd also like to add some more links, and perhaps some book recommendations too.

Thanks all!

[GoldMotel]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Update #1 is now complete

Removed:
You Only Live Once (1937) - It's a precursor to the genre

Personally, I would have a proto-noir section in the first post. While the film might not fit in the "time period" of classic noir, I do think it is one of the films that was important in establishing the "classic noir" style.

Heck, even some critics/academic sources list many late 30s films (like "You Only Live Once") as full fledged film noirs (as it is in Alain Silver and Elizabeth Ward's film noir encyclopedia).

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by GoldMotel

Personally, I would have some mention of "You Only Live Once" as a proto-noir in the first post. While it might not fit in the "time period" of classic noir, I do think it is one of the films that was important in establishing the "classic noir" style.

Yeah, I was thinking of making a proto-noir section too. I haven't looked to see how many of them are on BD, but I agree that You Only Live Once is worth noting somewhere.

[Le Samourai]

Gun Crazy- France.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Le Samourai

Gun Crazy- France.

One of the ones I forgot to add to my word document when updating the list

edit: Added

[Cinemach]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Yeah, I was thinking of making a proto-noir section too. I haven't looked to see how many of them are on BD, but I agree that You Only Live Once is worth noting somewhere.

The thing is, if you do a proto-noir section, you open the door for German Expressionism in all its whims, the German New Objectivity films, French Poetic Realism, and then the American-made precursors themselves (largely made by European expatriates--from films by von Sternberg through the first-wave gangster & horror pictures). That's quite a large (unwieldy) net...but that's if you ask me, haha.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Cinemach

The thing is, if you do a proto-noir section, you open the door for German Expressionism in all its whims, the German New Objectivity films, French Poetic Realism, and then the American-made precursors themselves (largely made by European expatriates--from films by von Sternberg through the first-wave gangster & horror pictures). That's quite a large (unwieldy) net.

That's true. What I was thinking was to just add something under the Film Noir A-Z section, so if anything it would just be some titles under a spoiler tag, rather than a new section with thumbnails, etc..I'm still working on updating the A-Z list, so I'll see how it goes.

[GoldMotel]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

That's true. What I was thinking was to just add something under the Film Noir A-Z section, so if anything it would just be some titles under a spoiler tag, rather than a new section with thumbnails, etc..I'm still working on updating the A-Z list, so I'll see how it goes.

If you decide to make a proto-noir subheading, I would only choose the select few proto-noirs that are usually included in classic noir lists.

German expressionist films, Italian neo-realist films, etc. usually aren't included as noirs, proto or otherwise.

The only two proto-noirs I usually see included as classic noir (that predate 1940) are Fury (1936) and You Only Live Once.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by kaseaver

If Double Indemnity isn't classic film noir, I don't know what would be.

On the special feature documentary for Double Indemnity, Eddie Muller talks about how the following quote perfectly defines film noir.

[Show spoiler]"I killed him for money - and a woman - and I didn't get the money and I didn't get the woman."

I agree with Muller's observation. The above quote is a spot-on summation of the genre.

During the classic film noir movies, I always want to step into the screen, tap the characters on the shoulder, and warn them, "This will not end well."

[noirjunkie]

Originally Posted by GoldMotel

If you decide to make a proto-noir subheading, I would only choose the select few proto-noirs that are usually included in classic noir lists.

German expressionist films, Italian neo-realist films, etc. usually aren't included as noirs, proto or otherwise.

The only two proto-noirs I usually see included as classic noir (that predate 1940) are Fury (1936) and You Only Live Once.

Another proto-noir that is frequently cited as influencing the genre, especially since its director made several noirs after fleeing to America during WWII, is Fritz Lang's M (1931).

[joie]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

On the special feature documentary for Double Indemnity, Eddie Muller talks about how the following quote perfectly defines film noir.

[Show spoiler]"I killed him for money - and a woman - and I didn't get the money and I didn't get the woman."

I agree with Muller's observation. The above quote is a spot-on summation of the genre.

During the classic film noir movies, I always want to step into the screen, tap the characters on the shoulder, and warn them, "This will not end well."

Did anyone die in "The Maltese Falcon?" Oh! Archer died, early in the proceedings, but does his death make it film noir?

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by joie

Did anyone die in "The Maltese Falcon?" Oh! Archer died, early in the proceedings, but does his death make it film noir?

[Show spoiler]Let's just say that it does not end well.

I love the ending, where the barred door of the elevator shuts on Brigid O'Shaughnessy (Mary Astor) and she descends, as though she's going straight down to Hell.

The Maltese Falcon is generally acknowledged as one of the lead examples of film noir, but it can also be seen as an early prototype of the genre. I think that it's a noir, through and through, but I also think that classic film noir really hit a stride with Double Indemnity a few years later.

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by GoldMotel

If you decide to make a proto-noir subheading, I would only choose the select few proto-noirs that are usually included in classic noir lists.

German expressionist films, Italian neo-realist films, etc. usually aren't included as noirs, proto or otherwise.

The only two proto-noirs I usually see included as classic noir (that predate 1940) are Fury (1936) and You Only Live Once.

I never heard the term proto-noir before. What is that-a blueprint for future films? I've always thought of You Only Live Once as an early true noir, not a prototype. All the ingredients are there and that Armored Car scene is a knockout! Stranger On the Third Floor-early, prototype, or expressionist?