The Digital Bits; "Grain is supposed to be there!"

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by dadkins

Actually, it is a Sony screen...

Monitor Name Sony Notebook LCD (1920x1200)
Monitor ID MS_0026
Manufacturer Sony Corporation

Input Analog Input Voltage - 0.700V/0.300V
Current Resolution 1920 x 1200 @ 60Hz - Aspect Ratio 16:10

EDID Version 1 revision 3
DPMS Mode Support Active Off, Suspend, Standby
.....................

I sure like how people try and tell me what I have, what I am seeing, and anything else without ever seeing what I am looking at.

Thanks anyways!

Sorry, I meant Sharp panels, not screens!

Of course final assembly would be in Sony's in house plant, but afaik Sony don't make laptop panels any more.

[Skyhawk]

Originally Posted by CptGreedle

If there was no grain in dark scenes, you would loose all detail and all kinds of information. In fact one reason grain is still use (sometimes called "dither"), is to prevent a medium from dropping the information there cause it can not detect it. Without the grain, pitch black would be completely pitch black and there would be no shadows or shadow details.

Yeah in order to expose shadow detail, they really have to turn the ISO gain up for those CMOS/CCD sensors on those steady rate telecine devices. Of course, it's always good to make a distinction between film grain in the original source, and introduced digital noise.

On many titles you'll see the tell-tale chroma noise in dark shadows that unfortunately kill the detail in their attempt to preserve it. Since this is part of the digitizing process, it's doubtfull that this was the director's intent as this "grain" differs from what was shown at the theatrical presentation.

Theater goers don't complain of excessive "grain" very often, and they're seeing the REAL film medium (well the digital compositing can introduce digital noise on the film too of course, but they seem more careful).

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by BoneWSO

BStecke, you beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing. If someone really hates grain and wants it removed do it yourself. Turn the sharpness on your tv all the way down. Grain will be gone. Of course, the picture won't look as crisp, but then you'll be seeing what happens when someone decides to apply DNR. The results are a loss of clarity that you get with HD. So yeah, all of you people who dislike grain can just go back to buying DVD. Leave HD to the people who appreciate it.

Is it just me, or is this post horribly misinformed? I'm under the impression that the sharpness setting on a TV is just how much artificial sharpening the TV adds to the image. For a high quality image, you want the TV's sharpness off so you're seeing the original source image, not an overly-sharpened modified image.

Though I agree this could be a problem that makes people think the effect of grain is intrusive.

[Knight-Errant]

Originally Posted by neo_reloaded

Is it just me, or is this post horribly misinformed? I'm under the impression that the sharpness setting on a TV is just how much artificial sharpening the TV adds to the image. For a high quality image, you want the TV's sharpness off so you're seeing the original source image, not an overly-sharpened modified image.

Though I agree this could be a problem that makes people think the effect of grain is intrusive.

It varies I believe. Some TVs just add artificial sharpening and others actually defocus the image if you go all the way down.

[gamer2600]

Alright I am going to start with saying I know when grain is intentional like 300 and it doesn't bother me.

My question is...I have been watching a few Blu's, Season 2 of Weeds comes to mind, and a few scenes look grainy especially in dark lit areas. Is this just a product of the transfer of those scenes or is the Blu-ray player crapping out. I have a 60GB PS3 and it has not given me any problems.

[Maxx2029]

On Weeds maybe it's just that it's filmed on digital cameras and if you want to film scenes with natural lighting, some of the darker ones can be very grainy.

Like Michael Mann films Collateral and Miami Vice. or like with you digital camera when you turn the ISO setting up.

[SDon1969]

From what I've read it's a product of filming in the dark, but there are a lot of members here better suited to give you a detailed explanation...

[SquidPuppet]

Weeds 1 and 2 both had some very grainy scenes....outdoor patio evening dinner shots were most noticable for me. Still, love the show.

[WickyWoo]

Dark+Digital cameras commonly used for TV shows=CCD noise

[Pelican170]

Search for this in the Forums. There was a big discussion on this like a week ago..

[onceachilde]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Dark+Digital cameras commonly used for TV shows=CCD noise

This!

Grain is the product of the silver halide particles in physical film stock. Faux grain or a grainy effect is sometime applied digitally to make a digitally shot movie appear more like film.

Video noise is something very different. This is what you are seeing.

[gamer2600]

Thanks to the people explaining a few things.

For the people that use stupid icons thanks for wasting your time. For your information, the search did not give me the results that I was looking for, they just bring up posts about 300 being grainy which is obviously intentional.

[jkwest]

Originally Posted by gamer2600

Thanks to the people explaining a few things.

For the people that use stupid icons thanks for wasting your time. For your information, the search did not give me the results that I was looking for, they just bring up posts about 300 being grainy which is obviously intentional.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...822#post657822

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

To overly simplify things... Grain is tiny crystals or silver on the film that record an image when it is exposed to light. The size of the grain is dependent on the speed of the film stock and whether the cinematographer over or underexposed the negative.

For instance the 300 was shot on iso 500 speed film and Larry Fong underexposed in most scenes by 2 stops. This left an immense amount of grain on the image. But the payoff is he was able to shoot amazing slow motion sequences without a huge amount of light. It's not always budget related since Transformers was mostly shot on 500 speed stock. But the faster the film speed the larger the crystals and the more grain you will see. Also many cinematographers underexpose the film and then push it to correct exposure in the lab to bump up the contrast and give the film a harsh look... for example Mathew Libatique did this with The Fountain, this causes more grain. While in Requiem for a Dream he overexposed most of the scenes and pulled the film giving the image a softer look.

Now on the other hand in a film like Pirates cinematographer Darius Wolski chose to shoot the daylight scenes on iso 50 speed film stock which has smaller crystals and therefore much less grain... in fact it's hardly noticeable except in a theater.

All film has some grain whether you notice it or not if you blew the image up large enough you will see grain. I love it and think it adds to the experience. It's not usually something the Director decides to throw in for effect... this does happen every now and then, like in the Grindhouse pictures, but overall this is very rare.

I hope this helps!

And in case you're wondering I shoot film for a living...

[gamer2600]

Originally Posted by jkwest

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ighlight=grain
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...822#post657822

Thanks for the links...I wasn't trying to show anyone up or "beat a dead horse" just thought I would get more immediate information with a few people replying rather than fishing through hundreds of posts, most with sarcastic and useless information like people posting some of the shit on this thread.

Its funny how there is a feedback forum and in there is a post about eliminating "trolls" from the website. Everyone on there that has an opinion has over a 1,000 posts, and the people wasting my time posting on this thread are the ones doing the "trolling" when I had a legit question.

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by onceachilde

This!

Grain is the product of the silver halide particles in physical film stock. Faux grain or a grainy effect is sometime applied digitally to make a digitally shot movie appear more like film.

Video noise is something very different. This is what you are seeing.

Film Grain is more apparent in dark scenes when converted also. sometimes it is the grain, sometimes its Noise..

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by gamer2600

Thanks for the links...I wasn't trying to show anyone up or "beat a dead horse" just thought I would get more immediate information with a few people replying rather than fishing through hundreds of posts, most with sarcastic and useless information like people posting some of the shit on this thread.

Its funny how there is a feedback forum and in there is a post about eliminating "trolls" from the website. Everyone on there that has an opinion has over a 1,000 posts, and the people wasting my time posting on this thread are the ones doing the "trolling" when I had a legit question.

LOL... it's the internet. It can't be taken too seriously. Everyone is entitled to a little ribbing once in a while. It's all in good fun. Besides, I knew that the answer would come up. If anything, the people "using stupid icons" kept the thread afloat on the main page so that someone capable of answering in full detail could see the thread. Otherwise, it may have disappeared into obsucrity.

[PhiLeingFunkie]

I just finished watching Cast Away and I must say that I disagree with the reviews it received PQ wise.

The first act (pre crash) looks VERY dated and grain is apparent in about every scene. Detail was definitely improved over the dvd and the color saturation didn't bother me at all because thats how I remember seeing it, but the grain was visually distracting.

The island was gorgeous, very good stuff.

Again, in the third act, things got really ugly. 3.5 stars was more like it for me.

[CptGreedle]

Grain is essential ESPECIALLY in dark areas because that is how it is possible for you to see anything at all. Without that grain, the image would drop to pure lack and there would be no image.
When they shoot a film in darkness, the grain is larger/more prominent to allow for light absorption.
Read the sig...

[jkwest]

LOL!!!

I'm the one who started the smiley attack and then I answered his question...

[Marcusarilius]

Originally Posted by gamer2600

Alright I am going to start with saying I know when grain is intentional like 300 and it doesn't bother me.

My question is...I have been watching a few Blu's, Season 2 of Weeds comes to mind, and a few scenes look grainy especially in dark lit areas. Is this just a product of the transfer of those scenes or is the Blu-ray player crapping out. I have a 60GB PS3 and it has not given me any problems.

Very typically and commonly, grain is also a by product of filming in low light levels.

An excellent example to veiw is in the movie 28 weeks later. At the end of the movie when the girl is in the dark tunnel approaching her brother. She moves twards the camera from the darkness. Watch how the grain disapates as she gets closer to the camera area which has light in this area.