Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Ernest Rister]

Alternate Takes for Revised "Obi-Wan Yell" Discovered...

http://talkbacker.com/satire/star-wa...vered/id=28727

[Carcaridon]

Originally Posted by roguescribner

I don't buy it. That scene never sat well with me. Obi-Wan lands and then slices Maul in two. Maul had ample opportunity while Obi-Wan was flying overhead to slice him in two. He doesn't even attempt to raise his lightsaber in self-defense. He just holds it off to the side so Obi-Wan has clearance to kill him. Lame.

And Maul had "the high ground." Whatever that was supposed to mean in ep3.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Carcaridon

And Maul had "the high ground." Whatever that was supposed to mean in ep3.

Best not to ask. First draft syndrome.

[Elbie]

Originally Posted by Carcaridon

And Maul had "the high ground." Whatever that was supposed to mean in ep3.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Best not to ask. First draft syndrome.

I thought I was the only one that did not know what the hell "The High Ground" meant.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

You do know that Lucas asked for help in the writing of all three Prequels and most of the time, was turned down flat...especially Episode I.

He went to Kasdan on that one

You've just made that up.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by The Edge

I think Hayden did a fine job. And that fans don't know what they are talking about, and only George knows what Anakin was supposed to be like. People have all these "ideas" about what things in Star Wars have to be, according to them, but when The Creator plans different things, the spoiled brats just love to throw temper tantrums, lol

Let it go, the Hayden Christiansen/Jar Jar Binks hatefest was so long ago and is over done and old and pointless by now.

All we had to go on was Obi-wan's point of view in the original trilogy, that Anakin was a "good friend", "a great pilot" and strong with the Force.

The prequels didn't contradict that but there's a group of fans out there who I like to think are in the minority but are just more vocal than the fans who've got better things to do than sit on the internet all day. And those fans decided long ago what Anakin should be like and woe betide George Lucas for painting him any differently.

He's an only child who has attachment issues and becomes a surly, moody teenager (and what teenager isn't surly and moody?). He's a hero with clay feet. And that actually makes him even more sympathetic in my opinion.

Anyway, back to Episode VII. I think it would be a crying shame if JJ paid more attention to the noisy few than if he steered closer to what Lucas envisioned for the third trilogy. I don't think they have the first clue as to what Star Wars is all about.

[camper]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

All we had to go on was Obi-wan's point of view in the original trilogy, that Anakin was a "good friend", "a great pilot" and strong with the Force.

He's an only child who has attachment issues and becomes a surly, moody teenager (and what teenager isn't surly and moody?). He's a hero with clay feet. And that actually makes him even more sympathetic in my opinion.

That's the problem, we didn't want to see young Vader as a whiny teenager, and he's not a villain we want to be sympathetic to. This was a bad guy who killed people with his mind because they made a mistake. He was an evil warrior who cared about nothing except power and THEN was redeemed at the end.

I liked how he was portrayed in Episode 1--as a nice, kind, good-hearted kid. I liked him, and was glad that they didn't show him as some sadistic little punk pulling wings off of flies or something. At the end of Episode 1 my thought was "what in the world happened to take you from here to Vader" and I was let down.

I didn't think Hayden Christiansen did a bad job, but I think he was dealt a bad romantic plotline. Being being very good at being a Jedi and coupled with his blatant arrogance because he was constantly told he was "the chosen one" and it got in his head was well done, and well acted. The 'losing it' at the sandpeople and letting his anger get away and slaughtering the village in his blind rage to rescue his mother was also well done.

The problem I personally have (and no doubt others) is what seemed to be a 'forced' relationship with Padme just to get the "she gives birth to Luke and Leia" back-story lined up. In order to make her seem 'strong' she had to reject him and make her chase him and all that crap, instead of starting out with mutual attraction as he got older and letting that be less awkward. Even meeting them in episode 2 and seeing how they have already established a 'secret' relationship they are trying to hide would have elminated all that 'getting to know you' crap we could have done without. We know they get together. We could really care less how, we want to see the how of him going from a nice little boy to a world zapping bastard.

And frankly, the "I'm going to kill little children to make you safe" made him look like a moronic douchbag who can't get his shit together instead of the ruthless and cunning Vader we were introduced to in Episode 4.

Anyway, back to Episode VII. I think it would be a crying shame if JJ paid more attention to the noisy few than if he steered closer to what Lucas envisioned for the third trilogy. I don't think they have the first clue as to what Star Wars is all about.

Nah, we've seen what Lucas can do--Ewoks, Jar Jar, Midoclorian force-giving bacteria, Life Day, horribly written romances etc. Let's see what someone else can do when they build on the stuff that's universally loved.

And really, what did Lucas truly envision for the 3rd trilogy when he keeps changing the first one?

[The Edge]

We should have already been sympathetic towards Vader during Jedi when it was clear that he was Palpatine's puppet. Maybe even during Empire.

And, what's "Life Day", and when was it in Star Wars?

[CaptainYoda]

Originally Posted by The Edge

We should have already been sympathetic towards Vader during Jedi when it was clear that he was Palpatine's puppet. Maybe even during Empire.

And, what's "Life Day", and when was it in Star Wars?

Life day is a Wookiee holiday from the Star Wars Holiday Special.

[camper]

Originally Posted by The Edge

We should have already been sympathetic towards Vader during Jedi when it was clear that he was Palpatine's puppet. Maybe even during Empire.

And, what's "Life Day", and when was it in Star Wars?

Star Wars "Life Day" Holiday Special - YouTube

[ChainsawJedi]

Lucas envisioned the third trilogy as being more ethereal and being more focused on the "other". Now, I wish I knew where I read that but I honestly can't remember!

When you say, though, camper, that we don't want to see Vader as this or that, there lies the rub. Far too many fans coming to the film with their own preconceptions, built up over years of expectation. I suppose it's hardly surprising (god knows enough of them whinged loud and long about Anakin's fall to the dark side being "all for love") but what's that phrase about a mind being like a parachute? It works best when it's open.

[camper]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

When you say, though, camper, that we don't want to see Vader as this or that, there lies the rub. Far too many fans coming to the film with their own preconceptions, built up over years of expectation. I suppose it's hardly surprising (god knows enough of them whinged loud and long about Anakin's fall to the dark side being "all for love") but what's that phrase about a mind being like a parachute? It works best when it's open.

Agreed you can't please everyone. And with origin stories you have a huge problem when you take a mysterious entity with a shadowy past and expound on it, because it will never be as awesome as what they say. Less is more. SO much more.

Lucas backed himself into a corner by promising to show us how & why Anakin became Vader. I think he did a good job initially. Seeing how 'good' and kind he was as a little boy makes the transition back to the good side of the force seem more believable, because it *was* there.

A horny teenager acting horny and pouting when he doesn't get his way, and then the "I don't want to lose you so I'm going to turn evil to keep you forever" is ludicrous. It doesn't match the character of Vader in any way up until the prequel introduced it, and even .

You can dismiss it as the 'whining about being all for love' but the fact of the matter is that there was nothing in the known character of Vader to suggest it.

If you have to read in between the lines for it to make sense or make assumptions to make it fit, in a movie series that has never ever required this to be done for anything else, then it doesn't work.

[The Edge]

Originally Posted by CaptainYoda

Life day is a Wookiee holiday from the Star Wars Holiday Special.

Ah.

[Makes Wookiee noises.]

[ChainsawJedi]

Well, as you say camper, you can't please everyone. Personally, I was touched by the lengths a man will go to to stop his wife from dying. He is quite the obsessive, you know, Mr Vader, and love is blind.

Anakin was a mixed up fella, torn between the so-called rights of the Jedi and Palaptine's machinations which went back to his childhood.

I've never had to join any dots and read between the lines to enjoy the fall of Anakin, personally.

[camper]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Well, as you say camper, you can't please everyone. Personally, I was touched by the lengths a man will go to to stop his wife from dying. He is quite the obsessive, you know, Mr Vader, and love is blind.

Anakin was a mixed up fella, torn between the so-called rights of the Jedi and Palaptine's machinations which went back to his childhood.

I've never had to join any dots and read between the lines to enjoy the fall of Anakin, personally.

Don't interpret my criticisms and complaints to mean that I did not enjoy all three of the films. I did, very much. I thought the Anakin/Padme thing was too fast, too forced, and made little sense. But Lucas, IMHO, cannot write romance at all and the Luke/Leia kissing scenes in 4 & 5 show that major elements of the universe were not planned ahead of time, or well.

I always envisioned the changing form light to dark as the flipping of a light switch, and greatly enjoyed that relatively fast transformation with Anakin.

I'm not even barking about Jar Jar or Anakin building C-3PO which I rolled my eyes with on the latter, but didn't really care...I just think the romance was not well done, not strong enough of an impetus for him to convert (there was nothing to 'save', she was not sick or dying) and her ultimately dying after child birth "of a broken heart" was altogether hackneyed.

It could be that Portman and Christiansen simply lacked the proper chemistry to sell it, or the writing was lacking. Either way, what was lacking revolved completely around that aspect of his origin.

[Packerfan75]

Originally Posted by camper

That's the problem, we didn't want to see young Vader as a whiny teenager, and he's not a villain we want to be sympathetic to. This was a bad guy who killed people with his mind because they made a mistake. He was an evil warrior who cared about nothing except power and THEN was redeemed at the end.

I liked how he was portrayed in Episode 1--as a nice, kind, good-hearted kid. I liked him, and was glad that they didn't show him as some sadistic little punk pulling wings off of flies or something. At the end of Episode 1 my thought was "what in the world happened to take you from here to Vader" and I was let down.

I didn't think Hayden Christiansen did a bad job, but I think he was dealt a bad romantic plotline. Being being very good at being a Jedi and coupled with his blatant arrogance because he was constantly told he was "the chosen one" and it got in his head was well done, and well acted. The 'losing it' at the sandpeople and letting his anger get away and slaughtering the village in his blind rage to rescue his mother was also well done.

The problem I personally have (and no doubt others) is what seemed to be a 'forced' relationship with Padme just to get the "she gives birth to Luke and Leia" back-story lined up. In order to make her seem 'strong' she had to reject him and make her chase him and all that crap, instead of starting out with mutual attraction as he got older and letting that be less awkward. Even meeting them in episode 2 and seeing how they have already established a 'secret' relationship they are trying to hide would have elminated all that 'getting to know you' crap we could have done without. We know they get together. We could really care less how, we want to see the how of him going from a nice little boy to a world zapping bastard.

And frankly, the "I'm going to kill little children to make you safe" made him look like a moronic douchbag who can't get his shit together instead of the ruthless and cunning Vader we were introduced to in Episode 4.

That was well thought out and well put. I agree.
Even though they hinted at it a few times throughout episodes 2 and 3, the main draw for Anakin to go to the dark side should've been greed and power. That's what it's always about. Selling your soul for power and gain. His anger and temper also being a catalyst. That should've been the focus the whole time.
The romance storyline was an anchor that weighed the story down. Not to mention those parts were horribly written and the 2 had zero on screen chemistry.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by camper

Don't interpret my criticisms and complaints to mean that I did not enjoy all three of the films. I did, very much. I thought the Anakin/Padme thing was too fast, too forced, and made little sense. But Lucas, IMHO, cannot write romance at all and the Luke/Leia kissing scenes in 4 & 5 show that major elements of the universe were not planned ahead of time, or well.

I always envisioned the changing form light to dark as the flipping of a light switch, and greatly enjoyed that relatively fast transformation with Anakin.

I'm not even barking about Jar Jar or Anakin building C-3PO which I rolled my eyes with on the latter, but didn't really care...I just think the romance was not well done, not strong enough of an impetus for him to convert (there was nothing to 'save', she was not sick or dying) and her ultimately dying after child birth "of a broken heart" was altogether hackneyed.

It could be that Portman and Christiansen simply lacked the proper chemistry to sell it, or the writing was lacking. Either way, what was lacking revolved completely around that aspect of his origin.

I feel like an apologist every time I read your comments and all I can offer is a rather limp "Well, I thought it was alright"!

Dying of a broken heart, for example, was something that I always saw as being a reminder that this is, ultimately, a fairy tale. And in fairy tales, people die of broken hearts.

The romance element, whilst not the strongest aspect of the story, was something I actually enjoyed. I found the dialogue to be - don't laugh - Shakespearean (okay, you're laughing now, I can tell) and I loved the little moments of unease between them. However, compare the chemistry (and I do feel that there's hardly any of that in the prequels) to that of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher in The Empire Strikes Back and, yes, the love story does fall short.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by Packerfan75

That was well thought out and well put. I agree.
Even though they hinted at it a few times throughout episodes 2 and 3, the main draw for Anakin to go to the dark side should've been greed and power. That's what it's always about. Selling your soul for power and gain. His anger and temper also being a catalyst. That should've been the focus the whole time.
The romance storyline was an anchor that weighed the story down. Not to mention those parts were horribly written and the 2 had zero on screen chemistry.

I disagree and I do wonder where you come off deciding what should have been the impetus for Anakin's fall to the dark side. There's nothing in the original trilogy that tells us exactly why he crossed to the dark side. All we know is that "there's much anger in him" and that he was "seduced". And the prequels show his anger plenty of times and the seduction scene in Revenge Of The Sith is brilliantly played out (and to think, Ian McDiarmid was sick with the flu at the time of filming it). Even in The Phantom Menace, where he is essentially a cute kid, watch the way he glowers at Mace Windu in the council room. An eerily prescient moment, I feel.

No, losing it all through attachment to the one you love is strong meat indeed and is another example of how certain religious teachings and myths have found their way into the Star Wars story. In the case of attachment, look to Buddhism.

[Packerfan75]

Want TE=ChainsawJedi;8983931]I disagree and I do wonder where you come off deciding what should have been the impetus for Anakin's fall to the dark side. There's nothing in the original trilogy that tells us exactly why he crossed to the dark side. All we know is that "there's much anger in him" and that he was "seduced". And the prequels show his anger plenty of times and the seduction scene in Revenge Of The Sith is brilliantly played out (and to think, Ian McDiarmid was sick with the flu at the time of filming it). Even in The Phantom Menace, where he is essentially a cute kid, watch the way he glowers at Mace Windu in the council room. An eerily prescient moment, I feel.

No, losing it all through attachment to the one you love is strong meat indeed and is another example of how certain religious teachings and myths have found their way into the Star Wars story. In the case of attachment, look to Buddhism.[/QUOTE]

Where I get off saying that is through Darth Vaders own words. What is it he kept saying to Luke? "You don't know the power of the dark side".
Anakin in episode 2 even said to Padme, "I want more and I know I shouldn't". Or at the end of episode 3 when Anakin was talking about ruling the galaxy and his new empire.
That's the way it was written and thats the way it should've been. If you're happy with the poorly scripted love story and it being the reason for Anakin to flip out and kill younglings, great.

[MCT]

What this argument boils down to:

Apologists = "Lucas wrote it and that's the way it is. It's Star Wars and it can't be bad or poorly thought out, and if you disagree YOU DONT UNDASTAND DA STAH WAHZ UNIVUSSSS"

Disgruntled SW fans = "I understand SW perfectly and its not my fault you make excuses for crap and play mental gymnastics to make pegs fit into round holes while I call it as I see it."

Repeat ad nauseum for 15 years going strong.