LCDs and Plasmas

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

Well, people always tend to "Tout" what they have.
If you don't mind you're tv looking half as good as it did when you buy it after a couple years...thats your business, after all you are "edumacated"

Please explain this comment for all of us unedumacated plasma owners. With current picture half-lives of 60K-100K hours (in torch mode), the point is moot as most folks will have replaced their display LONG before that time.

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Please explain this comment for all of us unedumacated plasma owners. With current picture half-lives of 60K-100K hours (in torch mode), the point is moot as most folks will have replaced their display LONG before that time.

As someone who hangs hundereds of these a year on the back wall at Best Buy, then sells them throughout the year, then hang the replacement model in place of the new one, I can say with 100% confidence that those "60,000k" Claims from the manufacturer are just that..."Claims"

Ask anyone who's owned plasmas for any length of time or anyone who works with them on a daily basis like i do.

Those statistics are BS and in favor of the MFG'r.

Granted they don't fade anywhere near as fast as the earlier models like from 95-2003, but 60k pfftt...give me a break....more like about 10-15k you will notice a clear difference between a fresh out the box one, and one that was on the wal for the previous 6-8 months. I don't know if it's at "Half life" but it's definately faded enough where the picture goes from WOW to abysmal IMHO.


Plasma half life ratings are about as ridiculous as tire wear ratings on cars. Have you ever got 60,000 miles out of a set of tires? I sure as hell havent!

[JTK]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

As someone who hangs hundereds of these a year on the back wall at Best Buy, then sells them throughout the year, then hang the replacement model in place of the new one, I can say with 100% confidence that those "60,000k" Claims from the manufacturer are just that..."Claims"

I think we'd all agree that all the manufacterers and all the techs enjoy some uh...flattering advertising at times, yes?

Here's a question: Aren't all those TV's, regardless of tech, always maxed out in torch mode anyways? If so, then sure as hell I'd expect some fading to happen sooner rather than later.

Ask anyone who's owned plasmas for any length of time or anyone who works with them on a daily basis like i do.

I can already anticipate the plasma zealots around here piping in with "Not us!"

I do salute someone like Doby who, even though his preference for plasma is quite apparent, is able to discuss real issues, cite real sources, and cite real facts.

Some of his fellow plasma enthusiasts around here would do well to either follow his example or simply don't bother to post. We don't need the snide innuendo and we certainly don't need to see people deliberately miss the point of other people's posts for the sake of trying to have some kind of meaningless argument.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...395#post919395

Read from about post 15 on through.

If I do end up buying a plasma at some point, it will be in large thanks to people like Doby, who argue points well with real sources and real facts.

Those statistics are BS and in favor of the MFG'r.

Sadly, that problem is not confined to plasma or even just TV's by a longshot.

Granted they don't fade anywhere near as fast as the earlier models like from 95-2003, but 60k pfftt...give me a break....more like about 10-15k you will notice a clear difference between a fresh out the box one, and one that was on the wal for the previous 6-8 months.

They've improved for sure but that kind of situation is still somewhat disturbing and something a fence sitter like me takes note of when getting ready to make a move.

I don't know if it's at "Half life" but it's definately faded enough where the picture goes from WOW to abysmal IMHO.

That's pretty harsh if we're talking about current day plasmas, isn't it? I know that's the way it used to be several years back...

Plasma half life ratings are about as ridiculous as tire wear ratings on cars. Have you ever got 60,000 miles out of a set of tires? I sure as hell havent!

I can anticipate the kind of snotty response this will get, too: "But most people who buy these will exchange and upgrade their TV's again anyways, making this point moot" or some such drivel. Like a lot of people have that kind of disposeable income that they can swap out multi thousand dollar TV's like they were changing underwear.

No, it's not moot at all. Whatever I buy next I'd like to last for at least 3-5 years and hold me over until OLED has become mainstream and affordable and/or whatever other new techs are prevalant at that time.

I want something that has at least the same great PQ that my Sony CRT Tube 34xbr960 does, but on a bigger screen. I want something somewhat versatile and durable. I want something that I can play videogames on and something that I can simply use with confidence and worry free like I use my tube to this day. I really don't care what tech it is.

So no one gets me wrong here: Up until the 2007 models, I had LCD utterly written off as trash for the most part. I liked it and still like it for computer monitors and other sub 40 inch applications. Now I'm starting to warm up to it a bit thanks to excellent TV's like Sony's XBR4 line and such.

I had really thought Sony's LCOS/SXRD was going to be the LCD killer, at least, and I was waiting to see how the a3000 series would go and what their successors would be like. Same with JVC's DILA LCOS variant. I really thought LCOS was way better than LCD. I'm bitterly disappointed that it was abandoned. I could do without having to change a fading bulb or changing some wheel or whatever in some kind of TV, though. That concept is for the birds.

Even now, LCD still has blurring and some other issues that I'm really not thrilled about.

More often than not, I favored the PQ I saw on leading plasmas in store but I was put off by some very real bugaboos and issues that plasma has had for years.

If those bugaboos are truly minimized or, preferably, eliminated, then I'll be happy to give plasma it's just due in serious consideration.

When we're talking about thousands of dollars...am I really asking for too much?

If so, then I'll simply continue to wait it out.

[My_Two_Cents]

As a plasma owner, I can assure you that my 42" Pany ED plasma looks as good today as it did 5 years ago when I paid a bloody fortune for it. If I knew how to check the hours on it, I would, but there has been absolutely no picture degradation in that time, and it is used daily. Does anyone really think that if this was truly an issue, we'd have heard more than one person making this comment about fading? I've been an AVS forum member (please don't hold that against me ) ever since I first got the set, and am constantly reading plasma threads to keep up with issues, technology and such. I have never heard this complaint raised...ever. My other two sets (42" and 58" 768p Pany plasmas) are both relatively new, so I cannot comment on either of them (but their pictures are also both awesome...to me).

I'm not here to have some "meaningless argument" as commented earlier, but I'm also not going to sit back and let disinformation be spread without questioning the source. The "point" I was questioning was certainly not missed on my part. I understand that market-speak can be used to embellish the facts to some degree, but c'mon. Even if we take the low 60K hours stated half life, you're looking at the following number of years until the set is half as bright if used for the number of hours per day (365 days per year):

Hours per day....... Annual hours.......Years of use
......6......................2,190................ .27.4
......8......................2,920................ .20.5
.....12.....................4,380................. 13.7
.....24.....................8,760................. .6.8

So yes, even if the figures were slightly exaggerated, the issue of plasmas losing their picture over time is moot as you can certainly keep a set for 3, 5 even 10 years before you swap it out without seeing degradation. I plan to keep all of my plasmas indefinitely. I'm happy with them, and my only plans for the future will be a front projector.

[dobyblue]

Obviously there are people posting in here who do NOT post based on facts or measurements, but rather on opinion.

The ratings for Panasonic's plasmas are not done by Panasonic but by an outsourced company in Japan who test the panel at 100% brightness with a 100% white signal and measure the output through thousands of hours to reach those figures.

I'm going out on a limb here and making a guess that Brian is an LCD owner?

There are plenty of plasma owners on this site and several other AV sites and I do not hear any of them suggesting that after a few years their plasma was abysmal.

Here's some other viewpoints from Robert Wiley:

One practical example I will cite here is the Panasonic Tau units being used by video rental company, In Motion Pictures at major airports around the country. Most of the earlier Tau models have now been replaced by a newer model, but these plasma displays were used for 5 years and were the first generation of plasma displays to go a considerable distance. In Motion displays images on them from 6AM until 10PM daily (16 hours). By my estimates, these early plasma displays by Panasonic were in use by In Motion for around 30,000 hours or more. They never fail to catch my eye as I pass by in one airport or another to see if they are still in use. If they have lost some of their brightness level its hard to tell. This use equates to 18 years for a home owner that watches 3 hours television per day.

And this is the old model!

Judging a TV's performance by the way it looks on Best Buy's wall is a big mistake, one you'll realise when you get that TV home into a normal viewing environment.

That's why the specialty AV shops have showcase rooms designed to simulate the average room in a home where a TV will go. Check out the 1080p 60" ELITE KURO in one of those rooms and see if you walk out without a single doubt in your mind that you just saw the best display panel on the planet at this moment.

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I'm going out on a limb here and making a guess that Brian is an LCD owner?

easy to see in my sig what i own, my main set is an SXRD (which is by far my favorite tv i've ever owned),
back up viewing is done on yes a 46" 1080p LCD.

Between a very close friend and I, and my brother we have owned 4 plasmas, and they have all degraded over time. Not only to my eyes, but theirs as well.
42" Panny ED (circa 03-04), 42" Sammy ED (SPN4235), 50" Pioneer 720p (05 model) & 50" 1080p Panny (2007 model).

I ditched mine, My friend ditched his ED, and is currently now dissatisfied with his 50" panny (wants a LN52a750, i dont blame him they're gorgeous), and MY brother mounted his Pionner in the garage to watch when he works on his truck and has an LED DLP 61" in it's place.



I wont bother trying to talk anyone out of buying a plasma and I know it's impossible to change someones opion, especially when they have "Ijustboughtcrapitis"

I saw that with the HDDVD zealots at avs, and i see similar defense techniques here with the plasma zealots.

I am glad they make different technologies because I am not stuck having to buy something that I am not comfortable with, nor are you.

Have fun with your Tv's whatever they may be!

If you want to take mine and thousands of other peoples word of mouth warnings, go for it...or listen to the handful of happy owners here and there and/or read the atypical Monsteresque deceptive marketing claims of 60+ or 100,000 hours from manufaturers!

that they rarely list anywhere

( who could blame them).


Either way, you'll have a beautiful tv....either for a couple of years, or as some have "claimed" 27 years, lol.

[dobyblue]

I'm not sure exactly what to make of your post, but if you think anyone here is going to believe that your '07 Panny has had a noticeable degrade in picture quality in less than 12 months, you really think there are some patsies here.

If plasmas suffered as you and your kin have experienced, it is one of the best kept secrets throughout the professional AV world, that's for sure!

It's also pretty childish of you to dismiss anyone's claims that plasma DOES NOT degrade as you and you alone have suggested, as being defensive over buying "crap" as you call it, then you have the audacity to claim that anyone who defends plasma is a "zealot"? Where are these "thousands" of word of mouth opinions you're speaking of?

Come on man, next you'll be telling us that all the folks at Sound and Vision, Home Theater Mag, HD Guru, etc., are all on the PDP coalition's payroll right?

What part of all the factual test information gathered here to show the superiority of plasma throughout the professional AV world is in your analogy of defensive techniques by HD DVD supporters, which as I recall used no factual data or professional opinions at all, but rather misdirection and FUD?!?!

[BorrowedTime]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

I wont bother trying to talk anyone out of buying a plasma and I know it's impossible to change someones opion, especially when they have "Ijustboughtcrapitis"

I saw that with the HDDVD zealots at avs, and i see similar defense techniques here with the plasma zealots.

I have a problem with this statement...

I've been a member of these forums since May 2007 and was a lurker long before that, so I was witness to some of the most bitter moments of the HD format war. I have a habit mostly of observing the posts here, and not getting too involved in discussions hence my relatively low post count despite visiting this site nearly every day since late 2006. The "defense techniques" that were employed by the HD-DVD FUDsters is more prevalent by the plasma haters on this forum, than vice versa.

I admit, I purchased a panasonic plasma tv this year. I researched the pros and cons of LCD and Plasma technology, based largely on the opinions and links to professional reviewer sites as provided by the people here and at AVS. I went from being absolutely certain in the early days of going with an LCD to eventually buying a Plasma based on what I learned here and at other sites.

More often than not Plasma-hating, pro-LCDers employ the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt tactics that were popular among the HD-DVD crowd. Look at the majority of threads on this specific sub-forum, and you'll notice that the "plasma zealots" (as you put it) rarely, if ever attack the virtues of LCD TVs only ever suggesting that a potential new buyer not dismiss a Plasma. You'll also find that there are many more "LCD zealots" that attack PDPs with claims of Burn-in/IR (Fear), companies like Pioneer abandoning plasma (Uncertainty), and now a vastly reduced half-life from the 60k/100k benchmark (Doubt).

I have nothing against LCDs and was still strongly considering them at least a week before purchasing the Panasonic. If circumstances and finances permit, down the road I may very well purchase an LCD as a second TV (I gave my 26" CRT HDTV to my parents). I'm just bothered by the assignation of FUD tactics to the pro-Plasma crowd here that were nothing but helpful to me in my research. Particularly when guys like dobyblue are able to provide credible, independant, and professional links to several sites.

Just my 2 cents....