Real 4k disks - what do you think the rollout timeline will be?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times

So saying you need a 10 foot screen to be able to see the advantages of 4k is simply wrong.

As evidenced by strict methodology in a scientific study done by the EBU- BeyondHD group with 6 sequences of imagery and independent ‘blinded’ participants viewing a 56” 4K flat panel, the results of which have been published and often quoted by people involved in 4K/UHD standards, then later confirmed by a another scientific study done by the 4ever project group (also published) using a 55” 4K flat panel.

Good to see you debunked that 10ft. screen notion....which seems to come up intermittently on this forum in various forms and fashions.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

...

Blu-Dog from Lancaster.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times

Also if we are going to have 12 bit color at 4:4:4 then we are almost certainly going to have to have a new hdmi spec as 2.0 doesn't look like it would be able to cut it.

True or full HDMI 2.0 can transmit 4K 24/30Hz 4:44 at up to 16 bits. Theoretically, if HDMI could evolve from 10bit to 14bit Transition Minimized Differential Signalling characters, one could attain 4K 24Hz 4:4:4 in the 297MHz clock.

For 4K 60Hz 4:44 (or higher frame rates) count on what’s quoted in this box….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ce#post8685503

*by ‘4K’ I mean consumer 4K, i.e. 3840 x 2160 rez. to those who make a big deal out such things.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times

This essentially means in terms of newer releases at the very least there is actually more content available in 3d then there will be in 4k for quite some time and one of the common complaints excluding glasses about 3d seems to be the lack of content.

My memory is a bit fuzzy at to exact numbers of titles and the exact date, but I think that when 3D consumer displays first launched in retail stores there were about 50 films in Hollywood which already had 3D masters.

You’d have to go thru the following two lists and add up what you deem as ‘newer releases’ to see how those numbers stack up against that ‘50’ figure….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=218262
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=220755

I think you’ll soon be able to add to the later list, Belle…

BELLE: Official HD Trailer - YouTube

but first I’ll have to confirm with Spensley (across the pond) and I’m a bit hesitant as I think he’s a Chelsea supporter.

[peterraes]

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times

Yes, but do you know for a fact that in the future that will remain the case? Also technically zero films are available to stream in 4k at the moment in Australia. I actually prefer physical but I see it as more then plausible that the difference would not be quality at some stage in the future. If we defined what we meant by future (next five years for example) my opinion would be different.

i'm confused....why do people still claim 'there are no movies in 4K,just a few"?
i was under the impression that a digital scan of a 35 mm frame comes at best 6K,if the stock is in excellent condition.
Since the "old" movies will not be in the best of shape,even then 4K will be verry nice to have on a BR XL.
And yes,same here...i also prefer physical media due to the fact that"we want to own" things,it's our nature.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times

We do not now what compression advancements will be made to start. Which make much of what you said irrelevant. Jump back 10 years ago and look at the compression tools we had then vs now. Is there something I am missing or is this not expected to continue.

you are missing the obvious.

1) how can advancements in codecs mean that in Oct when I want to watch a horror movie every day and my GF does not and so watches something else that it won't happen any more? and if we both watch something different, no matter what BW is acceptable for one person watching a film you will need 2x that if we are watching something different. Neither points 1 or 2 are CODEC dependent, so they can't become irrelevant, even if you believe X (pure A/V bitrate for a movie) becomes lower you will still need 5x-6x+ in order to be able to watch movies at X with no issues

2) unless we have lossless video compression at X mbps(bit for bit, pixel for pixel the same as the master once decompressed) advancements in codecs is immaterial. If we have a film compressed using the same lossy tools and one is at X and the other at Y>X Y will by definition be higher quality since it will be closer to the master. And no matter how much compression advances you won't be able to get lossless at less than 50mbps, so even the example of what would be needed for old BD specs would not matter.

Furthermore this thread specifies simply future without any sense of time frame.

not at all. This thread is "Real 4k disks - what do you think the rollout timeline will be?" basically it isd asking a) when will there be a standard for 4k disks and b) when will we see the first players/disks. So there is a time line and it is extremely short. Since I doubt anyone is really wondering if that will happen in 10 or 20 or even more years.

Nothing you mention is in obstacle that would be impossible to overcome.

it is all about $$$ and reality.

The one factor that I fell is a bigger question is whether people will demand higher quality. I'm not so sure that most do. The majority do not watch films at home in the best quality available and dvds still outsell blu - ray qround 3 to 1 last I heard. So it is possible I concede that a niche premium physical market could exist with higher quality one pays a premium for.

you said ". It is more then feasible that in the future streaming will be able to provide the same quality as physical media"

that is what we are discussing there are people willing to watch Netflix at the lowest quality does that mean that it equals in A/V a BD or even Netflix at a higher BR? no, so who cares if there are people that say "it is good enough" because all they see is "I can waste a lot of hours for 8$".

But once again is there something that would stop that quality bieng achievable via streaming? I can't think of one in terms of technical problems that couldn't possibly be solved.

Do you agree that there are planes? some big and some small? do you agree there are helicopters? Obviously there is no "technical reasons why someone can't fly from point A to B so why do we still have cars and we just don't fly from point A-B? there were "visionaries" that believed because they could not think of a technical problem that could not be solved for flying cars and so they thought those too were just around the corner.

You are too busy looking for a "technical" problem when , obviously from your postings, you have no technical knowledge to begin with, and you are missing that even if something might be technically possible on paper, it does not mean it is realistic in real life. And cost and infrastructure is a real technical problem even if in theory it can be dismissed.

I never made mention of physical media remaining fixed or not. I do think we will eventually reach that point as I fell consumers by and large would prefer one set format for films like cds have had for quite some time.

CD is a bit of an exception. Music was on the verge of getting better with DVD-A and SACD but unfortunately over priced equipment and a bad overly heated format war ended up keeping a lot of music fans away and killing both formats. On the other hand now there is BD-A and so you are wrong in saying it is "fixed", it just stumbled until the tech got better.

[Wendell R. Breland]

The Sony version of HDMI 1.4 vs HDMI 2.0a vs HDMI 2.0b here. I made a PDF of the table from the graphic info, it should print much better.

[ronjones]

Unofficial word from several industry sources at the just completed NAB show is the BDA working group for 4K/UHD has so many different opinions on many of the details of the new standard that we are now looking at the holiday season 2015 for the launch of players and discs, or a year later than we had hoped. HERE is a link to a video of a Sony presentation that mentions the 2015 date.

[img eL]

from the Sony NAB 2014 presentation

"some of the factors that are important for 4k delivery of video on a physical disc are gonna be the frame rates the video codecs decided the dynamic range there's a lot of discussion of these parameters that still have not been defined. I don't have exact details to share today we should have those details in the coming months. The disc layer size for example just to give you a clue current disc layer size for Blu ray is single layer or dual layer 25 gigabytes or 50 gigabytes in a dual layer size as we research the UHD necessities to deliver full content of 4K that disc capacity even needs to be larger were probably talking about 100GB Blu ray disc perhaps a triple layer disc rather than a dual layer discs so you take 100 gigabytes and you divide it by three you have a 99 GB disc 33 66 in a 99 on a triple layer so sized capacity is increasing the dynamic range will change video frame rates will be added video codecs need to be decided all of those details to come soon down the road if you have really specific questions about that later on I'm happy to talk to you a little bit more about that."

Details in the coming months? Details?

[vargo]

The good news is that the working group is very close to voting on what type of biscuits to serve at the next round of discussions.

However there is still some disagreement over the distribution of biscuits among attendees.

[Geoff D]

Chocolate Hob Nobs FTW

[Wendell R. Breland]

Folks should keep in mind that it took RED more than 2 years (??) to ship the Redray player. Now look at the specs, this thing only does video and audio in .RED format. The Nuvola NP-1 appears to be a more versatile media player but it appears that no one actually has one of these either.

It is hoped that folks will realize the improvements brought by UHD BD will only be marginal in many (most) cases over that of standard BD because of the source material that is available. According to the owners of the Sony FMP-X1 this seems to be true.

[slick1ru2]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Folks should keep in mind that it took RED more than 2 years (??) to ship the Redray player. Now look at the specs, this thing only does video and audio in .RED format. The Nuvola NP-1 appears to be a more versatile media player but it appears that no one actually has one of these either.

It is hoped that folks will realize the improvements brought by UHD BD will only be marginal in many (most) cases over that of standard BD because of the source material that is available. According to the owners of the Sony FMP-X1 this seems to be true.

Looking at the Amazon reviews on the FMP-X1, it looks like Sony dropped the ball. And is still only able to work with 2 models of their TVs? BTW, the price has dropped drastically.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

Looking at the Amazon reviews on the FMP-X1, it looks like Sony dropped the ball. And is still only able to work with 2 models of their TVs? BTW, the price has dropped drastically.

We will not see movies in rec.2020 until we see players able to reproduce it, and that may not show up until mid-2015 - at reasonable stocking levels. The industry shows us new technology in basically three steps:

1. Very expensive "bleeding edge" models for the must-have crowd
2. Relatively expensive models, without all the features people actually want, at relatively accessible stocking levels
3. Commodity pricing, with decent backwards compatibility, and reliability at an acceptable price point.

Content will lag for 4K. While films have been stored in 4K for the industry, releasing them in 4K format will have to endure tweaks. All of the modern problems - edge enhancement chief among them - will plague the new format, and new transfers of new films will be slow, but the rule. This market will not be huge for at least another year (until mid-2015) so don't expect to see anything but Blu-Ray showing on most new sets.


Early 2006 players ran $500-$700. As late as 2010, Sony and Pioneer premier players were running $350 to $450. At this time, a good Sony is under $100.


The timeline for 4K will be shorter - but the audience is smaller, with the entire market not really caring for the subtle differences. Despite the fact that some posters deride the public as "idiots", a huge majority of these folks watch SD broadcasts in "zoom" mode on commodity 720p and 1080i screens - and enjoy it. This will not be a rapid change, and I don't expect to see significant headway for at least two years. Real market change may not happen for three or four.


I can't overstate the damage 3D did to the confidence of the public. 3D is now moribund and static, with terrible public acceptance, and the average consumer is not able to toss older sets aside for a gimmick. People really want to wait - and should - with a marketplace quite willing to try and market the next best thing when the current thing is working.


The effort now is to render obsolescent 1080p televisions and playback devices. This isn't going to work. The only market mover is attrition - as older sets die, the new ones will be 4K, and heaven help the manufacturers if they go stupid on us and try to abandon Blu-Ray. Only total embrace of legacy Blu standards will be acceptable to the public - and will slow 4K acceptance even more.


They really screwed up in 2010. I hope they survive. I don't know anyone that trusts this industry.

[Geoff D]

I agree about 3D, it was an upgrade too far and it's made a lot of people wary about the next next next big thing that the manufacturers are pushing on us (HD to 3D to UHD).

I think 3D's utterly amazing when done right, but the home rollout was so fractured and disparate, with competing technologies, active glasses not being compatible between different manufacturers, the killer app of Avatar being held back as an exclusive for Panasonic etc etc, that the general public washed their hands of it in terms of mass acceptance. (And they don't seem to have learned with 4K, what with different manufacturers offering 4K software solutions that only work with their TVs, early sets that can't access one of the only means of commercially available 4K content at the moment etc.)

Still, it's ironic that the onset of 4K has finally delivered the sort of astonishing 3D performance (passive 1080p with no crosstalk) that would've given the stereo format a major boost if it were that good from the beginning AND had the software (AVATAR!!!) to support it. Perhaps we'll only see what 4K can really do when 8K sets start to come out?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Still, it's ironic that the onset of 4K has finally delivered the sort of astonishing 3D performance (passive 1080p with no crosstalk) that would've given the stereo format a major boost if it were that good from the beginning AND had the software (AVATAR!!!) to support it. Perhaps we'll only see what 4K can really do when 8K sets start to come out?

8K is being broadcast in Japan - this thing is turning into a nightmare. I saw Avatar as being the real problem with 3D - a mediocre film, with nice images that don't stand repeated viewing - and a lot of whooping and hollering by the industry. There was no followup that people could use on their sets. It's like having the perfect oven, making a delicious dessert in it, and then nothing else is around good to eat.


If it's not going mainstream, requires special equipment strapped to the viewer to see the image, and isn't being broadcast, it's not going to happen. 4K won't help that. The ENTIRE industry needs to embrace a practical technology, and that's not happening. Witness the sports broadcasters running for the hills every time it's mentioned.


People aren't going to embrace expensive discs to help this format succeed, so it will just circle the drain for a while longer.

[slick1ru2]

I just saw where two companies, forgot which, are coming out with glasses-less 3D, but I think the damage is done, yet something else so soon that comes across as a way to entice consumers to "upgrade".

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

I just saw where two companies, forgot which, are coming out with glasses-less 3D, but I think the damage is done, yet something else so soon that comes across as a way to entice consumers to "upgrade".

Each glassless solution - Vizio has one, I forget the other one - requires sitting in a special "sweet spot" to view the stereo image. The ones seen in Las Vegas at CES involved much head-knocking as people tried to share this "sweet spot" on a couch.


That isn't going to work. About the only sales it will promote is spiked helmets and artificial fart dispensers. If the 4K spec has 3D supported, it will be the current spec, most likely.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Each glassless solution - Vizio has one, I forget the other one - requires sitting in a special "sweet spot" to view the stereo image. The ones seen in Las Vegas at CES involved much head-knocking as people tried to share this "sweet spot" on a couch.


That isn't going to work. About the only sales it will promote is spiked helmets and artificial fart dispensers. If the 4K spec has 3D supported, it will be the current spec, most likely.

Is there any tech you aren't down on? (my opinion) lol.

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

My memory is a bit fuzzy at to exact numbers of titles and the exact date, but I think that when 3D consumer displays first launched in retail stores there were about 50 films in Hollywood which already had 3D masters.

You’d have to go thru the following two lists and add up what you deem as ‘newer releases’ to see how those numbers stack up against that ‘50’ figure….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=218262
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=220755

I think you’ll soon be able to add to the later list, Belle…

BELLE: Official HD Trailer - YouTube


but first I’ll have to confirm with Spensley (across the pond) and I’m a bit hesitant as I think he’s a Chelsea supporter.

I worked Security on location at Chiswick House for this film. They were shooting interior looking out on to the huge garden, was pretty cool