Scanners (1981)

[ultlife2013]

The anti-Criterion people come out in full droves when something like this happens, where are they when Criterion produces an amazing release?

HansEpp, your tone is severely making me not care in the least about your message. It actually is pushing me to want to order the new Scanners release and recommending it to more people just in spite. And I agree about original color timing being preserved as much as possible.

[mdonovan]

It's a tough word we live in :-) we all seem to want the same thing ...

An exact replication of the original release .... Or an improved version keeping the colors and tone as close as possible to the original. Not some revised idea weather it be from the colorist or the director himself.

I think we can all agree on that :-)

Hans has convinced me that the version i will most likely enjoy better is indeed the Subkultur release ... Although, having rarely been let down by criterion , I might get both.

It is funny that we are arguing over a C horror film of the 80s. Lol. Next we will be fighting over 'Firestarter'

[HansEpp]

Originally Posted by ultlife2013

The anti-Criterion people come out in full droves when something like this happens, where are they when Criterion produces an amazing release?

HansEpp, your tone is severely making me not care in the least about your message. It actually is pushing me to want to order the new Scanners release and recommending it to more people just in spite. And I agree about original color timing being preserved as much as possible.

Criterion has done some damn good stuff in the past, and that is what I am comparing them to: The high standard they had shown to the world in the past.

BTW: My collection contains 176 Criterion releases, so you can assume that I am a fan of their output.

And I am complaining because I don't want this to happen to any future release. I think this is an valid aim. And I am not sure what you are aiming at?

I guess that the rest of your posting can be ignored as non-sense (because it literally does not make any sense). What do you want to achieve with it?

You don't like my tone? OK, but in a discussion it is sometimes necessary to provoke a little, just to get the point across. I am sad to read that it can lead to a reaction like yours (also provocation btw.). But I am expressing myself in this fashion.

[HansEpp]

Originally Posted by mdonovan

It's a tough word we live in :-) we all seem to want the same thing ...

An exact replication of the original release .... Or an improved version keeping the colors and tone as close as possible to the original. Not some revised idea weather it be from the colorist or the director himself.

I think we can all agree on that :-)

Yes, I agree 100%.

[ultlife2013]

Originally Posted by HansEpp

Criterion has done some damn good stuff in the past, and that is what I measure them up with.

I guess that the rest of your posting can be ignored as non-sense (because it literally does not make any sense).

You don't like my tone? This is a discussion and sometimes a little provocation is needed the get the point clear. So what is your problem?

When you have to start calling people lemmings to make your point "clear", that is my problem.

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by mdonovan

It's a tough word we live in :-) we all seem to want the same thing ...

An exact replication of the original release .... Or an improved version keeping the colors and tone as close as possible to the original. Not some revised idea weather it be from the colorist or the director himself.

I think we can all agree on that :-)

Hans has convinced me that the version i will most likely enjoy better is indeed the Subkultur release ... Although, having rarely been let down by criterion , I might get both.

It is funny that we are arguing over a C horror film of the 80s. Lol. Next we will be fighting over 'Firestarter'

Yeah. The sole reason I don't really care here is that it's by far my least favorite Cronenberg movie. If this happens to the brood if/when they release it, then I'll be with the rioters. But in this case, I'm probably going to buy the Criterion regardless of color issues for the early film since I was never a big Scanners fan anyway and doubt I'll watch the movie itself more than once or twice. The color definitely looks whack to me, but then again, the Fellowship of the Ring bluray color did to me too in screenshots but my eyes just adjusted to the green when I watched it so I didn't really notice any difference unless I was going back and forth between comparisons :/

[tama]

Originally Posted by HansEpp

In the case of Scanners we are talking about a preservation master from MGM, which according to Subkultur Entertainment had the finished colortiming on it. As can be seen in comparision to the theatrical print. Although theatrical prints have indeed a tendency to fade or shift color, depending on the film stock used. Keeping that in mind, it is fair to assume that the protection/preservation master used by Subkultur Entertainment pretty closely reproduces the original theatrical presentation.

That's not what they said. They said they had access to MGMs protection master and compared it to their German release print. Since the overall color scheme wasn't a major difference between the two prints they went with look of the Protection Master as the more reliable of the two. They stated Cronenberg wanted nothing to do with assisting them with new commentary or guidance for color correctness so they used what they had available to them to make a judgement call.

They also stated that they had no way of confirming the accuracy of either presentation or if Criterion and Cronenberg had access to additional material in the guidance to there master and that it was a question that would have to be answered from Cronenberg or Criterion.

[HansEpp]

Originally Posted by ultlife2013

When you have to start calling people lemmings to make your point "clear", that is my problem.

WAIT, WAIT WAIT!
Don't misquote me on this one!
I did not call all people lemmings! I called all people who blindly believe in this "Director approved"-crap lemmings. Because this pseudo-quality stamp can be very misleading and does not secure anything.

[ultlife2013]

Originally Posted by HansEpp

WAIT, WAIT WAIT!

Don't misquote me on this one!

I did not call all people lemmings! I called all people who blindly believe in this "Director approved"-crap lemmings. Because this pseudo-quality stamp can be very misleading and does not secure anything.

That's a good point but I guess the wording was my issue with it. I didn't want to make it seem like I misquoted you, I apologize for that.

[HansEpp]

Originally Posted by tama

That's not what they said. They said they had access to MGMs protection master and compared it to their German release print. Since the overall color scheme wasn't a major difference between the two prints they went with look of the Protection Master as the more reliable of the two. They stated Cronenberg wanted nothing to do with assisting them with new commentary or guidance for color correctness so they used what they had available to them to make a judgement call.

They also stated that they had no way of confirming the accuracy of either presentation or if Criterion and Cronenberg had access to additional material in the guidance to there master and that it was a question that would have to be answered from Cronenberg or Criterion.

You are right, this is what was actually stated.

All I am trying to get across is the following:
To me this appears to be a good approximation to get near to the original look of the film.
On the other hand it seems like Criterion didn't even try to reproduce it. And there is a word for this approach: Revisionism.

What you prefer, is of course up to you.
But I think this should be brought to everyone's attention. That's all.

[HansEpp]

Originally Posted by ultlife2013

That's a good point but I guess the wording was my issue with it. I didn't want to make it seem like I misquoted you, I apologize for that.

Really no need to apologize. I am glad we could solve this issue.

[thebard]

I wasn't going to chime in on this thread, because I'm lukewarm on the film itself, but I do not think it is fair to lump people who criticize particular transfers in with "Criterion haters".

I don't own this release, and I'm hesitant to judge off of screen caps. And I will say that I love Criterion; I have ~60 titles... and that's just blu-rays, not counting DVDs (or laserdiscs). But Criterion are not perfect. I was disappointed with the transfer for The Ice Storm (my favorite Ang Lee film), I thought the grain structure looked unnatural. And I own Criterion's The Last Emperor, but when the Japanese Universal Geneon release was announced I bought it as well so I could enjoy the theatrical aspect ratio. It was a bonus that both cuts were included on that release, and while the Criterion's color saturation looked more accurate, I found the Geneon picture to be more stable, lacking the gate weave/wobble present on the Criterion.

I count myself lucky and realize that multiple purchases are not a financial option for many people; the excitement on these boards leading up to this week's sale are evidence of that, as people look forward to getting these titles for discount (i.e., typical blu-ray) prices. Region coding may also be an issue as far as alternate versions of some titles, for those who have not invested in multi-region hardware.

As Criterion have made a name for themselves in accurate, quality transfers, I think it is appropriate when discrepancies like these arise that people question and critique. As for me, I will wait for the post-release reviews, and will probably make a purchase of either this release or the German disc, depending on the verdict. But I think that the disappointment is this: with Criterion's reputation and track record, these evaluations should not be necessary. We are not Criterion haters, but we do expect superior transfers from them.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for listening.

[mdonovan]

Originally Posted by thebard

?...with Criterion's reputation and track record, these evaluations should not be necessary. We are not Criterion haters, but we do expect superior transfers from them.

Hear hear.

[Partyslammer]

Originally Posted by thebard

I wasn't going to chime in on this thread, because I'm lukewarm on the film itself, but I do not think it is fair to lump people who criticize particular transfers in with "Criterion haters".

I don't own this release, and I'm hesitant to judge off of screen caps. And I will say that I love Criterion; I have ~60 titles... and that's just blu-rays, not counting DVDs (or laserdiscs). But Criterion are not perfect. I was disappointed with the transfer for The Ice Storm (my favorite Ang Lee film), I thought the grain structure looked unnatural. And I own Criterion's The Last Emperor, but when the Japanese Universal Geneon release was announced I bought it as well so I could enjoy the theatrical aspect ratio. It was a bonus that both cuts were included on that release, and while the Criterion's color saturation looked more accurate, I found the Geneon picture to be more stable, lacking the gate weave/wobble present on the Criterion.

I count myself lucky and realize that multiple purchases are not a financial option for many people; the excitement on these boards leading up to this week's sale are evidence of that, as people look forward to getting these titles for discount (i.e., typical blu-ray) prices. Region coding may also be an issue as far as alternate versions of some titles, for those who have not invested in multi-region hardware.

As Criterion have made a name for themselves in accurate, quality transfers, I think it is appropriate when discrepancies like these arise that people question and critique. As for me, I will wait for the post-release reviews, and will probably make a purchase of either this release or the German disc, depending on the verdict. But I think that the disappointment is this: with Criterion's reputation and track record, these evaluations should not be necessary. We are not Criterion haters, but we do expect superior transfers from them.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for listening.

Well stated. I too own numerous Criterions and still hold that they are the best home video company in the business of releasing quality classic film presentations. Once in a rare while for whatever reasons, they drop the ball though - in this case it may be more on Cronnenberg's shoulders than Criterions. Companies like Shout/Scream wish they had Criterion's quality/success rate.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by HansEpp

All I am trying to get across is the following:
To me this appears to be a good approximation to get near to the original look of the film.
On the other hand it seems like Criterion didn't even try to reproduce it. And there is a word for this approach: Revisionism.

What you prefer, is of course up to you.
But I think this should be brought to everyone's attention. That's all.

It is difficult to see how it may appear to you that way because you have not seen the Criterion release.

Additionally, I am not at all convinced that the German release accurately replicates this so controversial now theatrical appearance. Actually, from the information provided in this thread, it is pretty obvious that it is a case of someone guessing how the film should look (with access to the protection master).

Lastly, I looked at the screencaptures that were posted yesterday -- and no, they do not confirm egregious use of DNR -- and it is pretty easy to see that various splashes of blood have been darkened out in the bottom left corner of the frame on this German release. Some food for thought there.

Pro-B

[Goremeister100]

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

Criterion looks the best. DE has a blown out contrast and maybe some sharpening.

No way. The Subkultur release looks the best and I'm glad I bought that BD when it came out. Looks like the MGM HDTV broadcast that I'm used to and I saw this in the theater and I can tell you that it had no "teal" shots like that screenshot of Stephen Lack on the Criterion blu which looks awful.

[Mansinthe]

Criterions Videodrome looked amazing , same for Naked Lunch. did Cronenberg approve these 2 movies as well? ive no idea about such things.

im defintly gonna get the criterion release and most likely the UK? release as well to get the most out of the bonus features.

i watched Cronenberg's The Fly Yesterday. and that movie is really in desperate need of a remaster.

[IMG]The Subkultur release looks the best[/IMG]

i think he does confuse the "german" bluray here with the Subkultur release. the upscaled first releases does really look horrible. while i perfectly understand that some people might prefer the subkultur release very much. the colors do really look more like you would expect from a 80s movie.

but i would wait and for the criterion release and really take a look at the transfer while running on the screen. Thief did look kinda off on the screens as well. same for the new rocky transfer. but i did both like a lot in the end.


about the Subkultur Release:

its probably not important for a lot of people but there are only German subs on that one. no english SDH subs. (yes some people out there do need these, either for hearing problems or to help with the english language..i do for example)

there is a lack of english subs for the bonus features / audicommentary as well.

and not to forget the Release is Region B locked.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Lastly, I looked at the screencaptures that were posted yesterday -- and no, they do not confirm egregious use of DNR -- and it is pretty easy to see that various splashes of blood have been darkened out in the bottom left corner of the frame on this German release. Some food for thought there.

Whilst the image has certainly been darkened, this particular issue looks like DNR to me.



Note how flakes of the skull fragment still remain, almost like the auto clean has failed to remove it all. If this was just an issue of the image being darker, then surely the whole thing would be harder to see in equal measure? You can even see a digital looking smear left behind where the rest of the skull fragment used to be.

[tama]

One more thing I want to add then I'm done. Criterion did nothing wrong and did not drop the ball with this release. That's a talking fade that has to stop. They're presenting Scanners in the manner that the Director has intended. It was his wish and call for the color timing, not Criterions.

They did they professional thing and respected his wishes. If they had overruled Cronenberg then for future titles why would any other Director or Cinematographer want to work with Criterion knowing their desires wishes and judgements would or could possibly be overruled?

[Mansinthe]

lets not forget that most people only own a small LCD / Plasma from some discounter thats probably far from being calibrated as well.

i highly doubt that most people will notice stuff that is being talked about in this thread at all