New H.265 twice as efficient as H.264!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Also I checked the ITU website and the UHDTV standard was updated a few days ago with the new frame rates.

^ Posted to the public on the ITU site…..drum roll…on July 17, 2014

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I have to hand it to the studios that who ever they have advocating for the DCI P3 color space seems to be doing a good job of convincing people that it would be good enough. Which is unfortunate since ...

B.T. 2020 color space is a noble, but tough pill to swallow given the infrastructure for P3. Had I been down in San Diego at the time, I would have liked to have personally seen this display at SID….http://www.nanosysinc.com/press-rele...-lcd-tvmonitor

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I would have liked to have personally seen this display...

Not for any serious/reference viewing of 4K material mind you, more for what it can do in terms of color….perhaps, nice new accessory toy for the office at home.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

B.T. 2020 color space is a noble, but tough pill to swallow given the infrastructure for P3.

DCI P3 getting chosen for UHDTV would be a victory for the studios, since they wouldn't have to upgrade their equipment, but in my opinion it would be a defeat for consumers since the color space chosen for UHDTV will be used for decades.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Had I been down in San Diego at the time, I would have liked to have personally seen this display at SID….http://www.nanosysinc.com/press-rele...-lcd-tvmonitor

The LCD display that Nanosys showed at SID could show 91% of the Rec. 2020 color space and if it had better color filters it could have shown 97%.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

...The LCD display that Nanosys showed at SID could show 91% of the Rec. 2020 color space and if it had better color filters it could have shown 97%.

I knew it was high, but didn’t know it was that high! Public claim at SID or insider knowledge?

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I knew it was high, but didn’t know it was that high! Public claim at SID or insider knowledge?

Nanosys posted about it on their website.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Nanosys posted about it on their website.

I had heard SID was a great show overall for quantum dot s and QDEF, e.g.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zJqB...ature=youtu.be


and the folks at nanosys took yet another ‘Best in Show’ award….

Nanosys - Display Week 2014 - Best in Show Award - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

So anyway, why all the gibberish on the last page about 10-bit? Well, to properly bring consumers WCG (Wide Color Gamut - be it DCI P3 or Richard’s fave - B.T. 2020), we need 10-bit video.

[Penton-Man]

…..”We shall then enjoy a specially invited paper describing work carried out by a collection of international laboratories. They will present, for the first time, subjective performance results of HEVC” - http://www.ibc.org/page.cfm/action=S...D=30/listID=74

As an aside, and not mentioned in the above ^ intro, one of the listed labs is currently discussing which HEVC encoder to use for a potential new project to encode HDR content.

[Penton-Man]

Wow….eye-opener, investigating hotel room rates at quality hotels in Amsterdam right now as compared to during IBC week . The phrase ‘price gouging’ comes to mind.

[Penton-Man]

Something to keep in mind for some perspective regarding WCG (wide color gamut) be it P3 or BT.2020 and next gen video. Do not expect a ‘wow’ knock-your-socks-off experience with all content encoded and displayed in a color gamut wider than Rec.709.

In other words, despite what those pretty colored CIE 1976 u′v′ chromaticity diagrams indicate that people enjoy posting on the internet to show how much bigger P3 is to Rec.709 or BT.2020 is to P3, fact of the matter is with *real life imagery/material* there will be little, if any, difference when directly comparing Rec.709 to a wider color gamut because life-like imagery doesn’t contain colors saturated enough to make a difference. You can see a dramatic difference though with using a wider color gamut for the rich colors used in animation and visual effects.

Just sayin….don’t expect your kids soccer match, weddings, family outings to the zoo, etc. that you shot in raw or log with your Red or Sony 4K movie camera to look any better if you have it color graded in Rec.709 or P3 by your local post house.

[IndyMLVC]

Not to get off topic but I can't believe this thread is still going strong... I almost never check it. Random.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

Not to get off topic...

On topic…..a question for any lurking developers. Right now, what is the better HEVC encoder….the HM or the x265? Or, for that matter, this puppy - http://www.vantrix.com/f265/

Off topic, I’ll need a few moments to load an appropriate pic. Hold please……

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

this thread...

Many have heard of the man who changed the world forever (Einstein) but, a comparatively niche of a niche group have ever heard of Claude Shannon (who?), i.e. another man in the same league who asked and subsequently, correctly answered the question nobody else was even asking….’what is the simplest answer to any question’ ?…
http://vimeo.com/98345492

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Something to keep in mind for some perspective regarding WCG (wide color gamut) be it P3 or BT.2020 and next gen video. Do not expect a ‘wow’ knock-your-socks-off experience with all content encoded and displayed in a color gamut wider than Rec.709.

In other words, despite what those pretty colored CIE 1976 u′v′ chromaticity diagrams indicate that people enjoy posting on the internet to show how much bigger P3 is to Rec.709 or BT.2020 is to P3, fact of the matter is with *real life imagery/material* there will be little, if any, difference when directly comparing Rec.709 to a wider color gamut because life-like imagery doesn’t contain colors saturated enough to make a difference. You can see a dramatic difference though with using a wider color gamut for the rich colors used in animation and visual effects.

Just sayin….don’t expect your kids soccer match, weddings, family outings to the zoo, etc. that you shot in raw or log with your Red or Sony 4K movie camera to look any better if you have it color graded in Rec.709 or P3 by your local post house.

Exactly. Just because the range is there, doesn't mean that the content will actually take advantage of it. It's hard enough telling people to not get excited about Sony's Expanded Colour on their Mi4K Blu-ray line (which, in real world viewing, didn't make a damned bit of difference to me), let alone new gamuts which will no doubt be advertised as THE GREATEST THING EVER* by the various hardware manufacturers. Folks will take those TVs home, put on their favourite soap and then complain that "it don't look no different!". Having sold TVs for many years, I've been on that merry-go-round more times than I can count.

*until the next greatest thing comes along

[Teazle]

Thanks to Richard Paul, Vargo and Penton for the informative replies. I glanced at the wiki for Xiph Foundation's Daala. Says it's in alpha since last year (geez these guys work fast), then links to some important technical stuff I lack the background to grasp. But it does say the Daala codec aims to be a generational leap over existing HEVC. Exciting stuff. Maybe in a few years they really will be able to get 4K film file sizes down to 100GB or so without too much compromise.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Folks will take those TVs home, put on their favourite soap and then complain that "it don't look no different!". Having sold TVs for many years, I've been on that merry-go-round more times than I can count.

You need a job with an office manager or administrative assistant to provide *the first line of defense*.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Exactly. Just because the range is there, doesn't mean that the content will actually take advantage of it. It's hard enough telling people to not get excited about Sony's Expanded Colour on their Mi4K Blu-ray line (which, in real world viewing, didn't make a damned bit of difference to me), let alone new gamuts which will no doubt be advertised as THE GREATEST THING EVER* by the various hardware manufacturers

If the color grading of the WCG vs. Rec.709 material is equal and no *tomfoolery* is involved if/when WCG comes to next gen video, then in the future, TV manufacturers will be compelled to show a lot of animation and vfx demo material in stores in order to leverage the strength of WCG (be it P3 or 2020).

Same thing will happen if/when HFR (100-ish fps or so) content comes to us. Believe me, the demoed material won’t be that of soap operas or tortoise chases…
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/04/us/tortoise-police-chase/

Even now with basic 4K, all savvy TV manufacturers leverage their knowledge of the human visual system and display technology by carefully choosing the type of footage in demo reels at trade shows and such.

For you see (pun), the perception of resolution depends on contrast because the human visual system has a contrast-sensitivity function. An increase in spatial resolution is most easily appreciated in scenes with high contrast sensitivity like for instance credits, leaves moving in the wind on a sunny day, glints off the water, newspaper text, etc. A continuously dark, moody movie won’t show off 4K’s strengths. Kind of like Sofia Vergara wearing an Amish dress.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

DCI P3 getting chosen for UHDTV would be a victory for the studios, since they wouldn't have to upgrade their equipment, but in my opinion it would be a defeat for consumers since the color space chosen for UHDTV will be used for decades...

Good point.

But, to give the ‘studio’ part of the system a little break, the engineering folk would really like to be able to have available pro (reference) monitors (not so important for consumer devices) capable of displaying the entire BT.2020 gamut for precision color grading and mastering. These have yet to be built.

You can decide for yourself whether or not that is a legitimate excuse.

For consumer devices, you could have a 4KBD spec that includes accepting data encoded into the wider B.T. 2020 specification but, essentially just display an *expanded/bright* rec.709 gamut until the technology advances in the consumer space for complete BT.2020 coverage.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Good point.

But, to give the ‘studio’ part of the system a little break, the engineering folk would really like to be able to have available pro (reference) monitors (not so important for consumer devices) capable of displaying the entire BT.2020 gamut for precision color grading and mastering. These have yet to be built.

The mastering display color volume SEI message was recently added to HEVC which was proposed by Movielabs and based on SMPTE 2086. It includes metadata that specifies the color primaries and dynamic range of the reference display that was used to master the video (so that very wide color spaces can be used). As for Rec. 2020 reference displays I have heard that they will start to come out next year.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For consumer devices, you could have a 4KBD spec that includes accepting data encoded into the wider B.T. 2020 specification but, essentially just display an *expanded/bright* rec.709 gamut until the technology advances in the consumer space for complete BT.2020 coverage.

If 4K Blu-ray supports wide color gamut video I think it will include metadata so that it can be shown on current UHDTVs/HDTVs. My guess is that 4K Blu-ray will be as backward compatible as possible with the exception of HDCP 2.2 which might be a requirement.

Originally Posted by Teazle

Anyone know of a roadmap for H.266 or whatever it will be called? Like to see it on the next disc format.

The second version of HEVC should be officially released in 2 or 3 months. The second version will include 12-bit profiles, several features for wide color gamut video, and several features for HDR video.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

As for Rec. 2020 reference displays I have heard that they will start to come out next year.

If there are 4K color critical monitors coming out next year with 100% coverage of BT.2020 gamut (analogous to 100% coverage of another gamut, namely P3, like with the PRM-4200, back a few years ago - http://www.noteloop.com/kit/display/...-4200-monitor/ which allowed for precise color grading (without the need for a DCI compliant projector)….then yes, not having BT.2020 supported in the 4KBD spec would be as you said “a defeat for consumers” and might I add, an unfortunately sad defeat.