Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: what were you guys expecting, and why? No more evasive crap; answer the question.

I was expecting Anakin and his story to be compelling.

I would have been happy with interesting.

But for the most part neither he nor his story met even that lower bar. He had his moments in Sith but they were too few and came too late.

[tilallr1]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

He destroyed the Federation's control ship, defeated the cheating Sebulba in a podrace, distracted Zam Wessell long enough for her ship to crash, and rescued his mother from Tusken Raiders. He defeated Count Dooku fairly (before giving into Palpatine's schemes), saved Obi-Wan from the observation deck of the Invisible Hand, and risked his life for Padme more than once. The only "whining" he did was despairing over his slaughter of the Tuskens (which was righteous conviction), and briefly standing his ground when Padme initially refused his romantic advances. In short, he was a vulnerable human being with emotions and weaknesses, not a robot.

There was no heart in his performance, which made his performance very robotic. It left me and others not really seeing anything as tragic, since we didn't much care for the character. Portman's performance was extremely weak as well. You put them both in a scene together and eyes rolled let me tell you. They both sucked on the acting side. The Sith characters and Obi-Wan are the only reasons I still enjoy the movies to be honest.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by octagon

I was expecting Anakin and his story to be compelling.

I would have been happy with interesting.

But for the most part neither he nor his story met even that lower bar. He had his moments in Sith but they were too few and came too late.

The problem with that kind of stance is that words like "compelling" and "interesting" are largely subjective; there's not many parameters to define such terms. Would you care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by tilallr1

There was no heart in his performance, which made his performance very robotic. It left me and others not really seeing anything as tragic, since we didn't much care for the character. Portman's performance was extremely weak as well. You put them both in a scene together and eyes rolled let me tell you. They both sucked on the acting side. The Sith characters and Obi-Wan are the only reasons I still enjoy the movies to be honest.

I liked Natalie in all of them, though Padme pleading with Anakin on Mustafar did seem a little forced (no pun intended).

What do you mean by a "lack of heart"? Was there anything specific that made you doubt the character's sincerity or motives? Please don't misunderstand; I'm not out to insult anyone's intelligence. But this debate has puzzled me since very early on, and I just can't seem to grasp the reasoning behind all the negativity.

[toddly6666]

Originally Posted by MCT

Anakin had no soul. He was an aloof whiny moron that never did anything right. He was a poorly written character and due to that, Lucas effectively ruined the Darth Vader character forever. I wanted an Anakin I could root for and feel genuinely bad for after he fell to the dark side; instead I got some crying douchebag that I felt no connection to or any remorse for when he became Vader. It was just bad writing all around. So yeah, he was definitely tragic; tragically moronic and undeserving of sympathy.

Exactly.

And generally, the acting in the prequels is pretty awful. That's sad for those actors who can act very well when they are in other movies. Anyone that says Hayden was actually good in the film playing Anakin is in the minority and is probably just sick of hearing people complain about the bad acting in the prequels

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

And generally, the acting in the prequels is pretty awful. That's sad for those actors who can act very well when they are in other movies. Anyone that says Hayden was actually good in the film playing Anakin is in the minority and is probably just sick of hearing people complain about the bad acting in the prequels

There were a few moments I thought Anakin came off as slightly too vulnerable, but I blamed Lucas' directing for that, not Hayden. Natalie and Ewan did a great job all-around, and I didn't have any problems with the other actors.

[toddly6666]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

There were a few moments I thought Anakin came off as slightly too vulnerable, but I blamed Lucas' directing for that, not Hayden. Natalie and Ewan did a great job all-around, and I didn't have any problems with the other actors.

Yeah you may have not minded, but generally speaking, everyone in those films are not in top form due to poor direction and screenwriting. Natalie was just as horrible as Hayden. No matter how much fans support these prequels, the acting is pretty bad. Just because they are fantasy/sci-fi films, the genre doesnt get a free pass for awful acting.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by tilallr1

4 Rules to Make Star Wars Great Again - YouTube

[simonynwa]

It says a lot when Anakin's best moment in the films and the one moment where I think I truly felt for both him and Padme was a moment of complete silence as he looks out of the Jedi Temple towards Padme in Ep III faced with his choice.

Had he not just killed the Jedi younglings, there may have been another like that when he is looking out over Mustafar after killing the Trade Federation heads.

Ill say this as well - John Williams is a genius as he carried a lot of the emotional weight of the prequels with his music and made certain moments so much better.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

The problem with that kind of stance is that words like "compelling" and "interesting" are largely subjective; there's not many parameters to define such terms. Would you care to elaborate?

Anakin and his story were boring.

I should have felt something when he knelt before Palpatine. That should have been a very dramatic moment but it wasn't. The slaughter of the sand people, the killing of the younglings, practically murdering his own wife...those things should have all evoked powerful emotional reactions but they didn't. They were boring.

The virgin birth? Prophecies of the Chosen One? Boring. The romance with Padme? Boring.

His relationship with Obi-wan was interesting at times and his relationship with Palpatine was probably the only consistently interesting aspect of the character.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

It says a lot when Anakin's best moment in the films and the one moment where I think I truly felt for both him and Padme was a moment of complete silence as he looks out of the Jedi Temple towards Padme in Ep III faced with his choice.

Yeah, both of them did that so great. My heart deeply hurt for Anakin in that moment, because it really is his final chance to do right. You could see the desperation, fear, and confusion in his expression, not knowing who to trust.

Had he not just killed the Jedi younglings, there may have been another like that when he is looking out over Mustafar after killing the Trade Federation heads.

Did you not see him cry in that shot? He didn't want to commit those murders...any of them. But he'd already deemed Padme's life as far more important than theirs, or even his own. He crossed the line between selfless love and co-dependence.

Ill say this as well - John Williams is a genius as he carried a lot of the emotional weight of the prequels with his music and made certain moments so much better.

No argument from me at all on this point; Williams has earned the "movie music maestro" moniker several times over. Some of my favorite scores outside of "Star Wars" are his as well, like "Superman", "Jurassic Park", "Hook", and the "Sabrina" remake.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by octagon

practically murdering his own wife...

He didnt murder her...she lost the will to live Maybe she was as bored as you.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

He didnt murder her...she lost the will to live Maybe she was as bored as you.

She got off easy...she missed the 'nooooooooooo'

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by octagon

Anakin and his story were boring.

I should have felt something when he knelt before Palpatine. That should have been a very dramatic moment but it wasn't. The slaughter of the sand people, the killing of the younglings, practically murdering his own wife...those things should have all evoked powerful emotional reactions but they didn't. They were boring.

The virgin birth? Prophecies of the Chosen One? Boring. The romance with Padme? Boring.

What kept you from being emotionally invested in those moments? Did you just have a problem with the notion of a prophecy at all, or was it something else?

As for the conception, I had no problem with it because Lucas had already described Anakin as a "reverse Christ figure".

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

He didnt murder her...she lost the will to live Maybe she was as bored as you.

That aspect of her fate seemed a little sketchy, but people have died of a broken heart before, and not just in the medical sense. When truly deep, committed love exists, it is very difficult for one to keep hope for themselves after losing their partner.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by octagon

Anakin and his story were boring.

I should have felt something when he knelt before Palpatine. That should have been a very dramatic moment but it wasn't. The slaughter of the sand people, the killing of the younglings, practically murdering his own wife...those things should have all evoked powerful emotional reactions but they didn't. They were boring.

The virgin birth? Prophecies of the Chosen One? Boring. The romance with Padme? Boring.

His relationship with Obi-wan was interesting at times and his relationship with Palpatine was probably the only consistently interesting aspect of the character.

I apply the same point of view to so many scenes and story arcs in Episodes 4-6, as simplistic as they are. Episodes 1-3 have more ambition on every level and for that alone, they earn my deepest respect. Lucas didn't just repeat himself and give me the same tired cliches in a simple good vs. evil story. And I did empathize and feel when Anakin killed the Tuskens and ultimately turned, against his will, to the dark side out of fear. I can relate to that just as much as I can relate to a farmboy looking out to the stars for adventure. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's automatically inferior. Fans of all genres need to realize that.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Did you not see him cry in that shot? He didn't want to commit those murders...any of them. But he'd already deemed Padme's life as far more important than theirs, or even his own. He crossed the line between selfless love and co-dependence.

I did yes but his actions that preceded this point meant I couldn't get invested. Not because they were horrific but because they were so unbelievable in the context of the story at that point. His actual turn was far too quick and he went from conflicted Jedi to child murderer in the space of about 5 minutes. Had he killed the younglings at the end perhaps after all he had been through, I "may" have been able to accept it as more believable.

Its the same issue I have with Padme in Clones - her acceptance of Anakin killing the Sandpeople is just too unbelievable given the context of her character. It makes it impossible to connect with her.

No argument from me at all on this point; William has earned the "movie music maestro" moniker several times over. Some of my favorite scores outside of "Star Wars" are his as well, like "Superman", "Jurassic Park", "Hook", and the "Sabrina" remake.

I will be attending a tribute concert to Williams at the Royal Albert Hall in London in October and can't wait.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

That aspect of her fate seemed a little sketchy, but people have died of a broken heart before, and not just in the medical sense. When truly deep, committed love exists, it is very difficult for one to keep hope for themselves after losing their partner.

I have no problem with the logic behind her death. She had nearly been force-choked to death by her husband who had just murdered dozens of people, including children. The combination of losing everything she cared for and the physical injuries Anakin inflicted on her seemed enough for her to lose the will to go on.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

That aspect of her fate seemed a little sketchy, but people have died of a broken heart before, and not just in the medical sense. When truly deep, committed love exists, it is very difficult for one to keep hope for themselves after losing their partner.

Context again, if you are going to sell that moment, you need something from the character to make it believable. There was nothing to suggest up to that point that Padme was incapable of living without Anakin, just that she was in love with him. Having Anakin's twins too (who she had shown concern for earlier when she heard she might die in childbirth so she hadn't lost everything she cared for) added to the belief she had something to live for and she even had time to express her belief there was some good in him - in other words hope wasn't lost.

And the ridiculous thing is it wasn't even needed. From what I have read Lucas put it in there because he didnt want people thinking Anakin had been the one to actually be responsible. Err why ??

[rickah88]

Is the main SW thread locked?(again)
Here I thought this was a thread about Episode VII?

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

I apply the same point of view to so many scenes and story arcs in Episodes 4-6, as simplistic as they are. Episodes 1-3 have more ambition on every level and for that alone, they earn my deepest respect. Lucas didn't just repeat himself and give me the same tired cliches in a simple good vs. evil story. And I did empathize and feel when Anakin killed the Tuskens and ultimately turned, against his will, to the dark side out of fear. I can relate to that just as much as I can relate to a farmboy looking out to the stars for adventure. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's automatically inferior. Fans of all genres need to realize that.

I agree that there was ambition in Ep1-3 and Im glad Lucas didnt simply repeat himself. That video of four things to make Star Wars great again is wrong - there is one main thing to make it great again and that is not to just copy what has gone before but to try new things. And the story arc of Anakin over the three episodes was generally good IMO and I also like the manner in which Anakin was turned overall. It's a shame that Lucas couldn't quite execute those particular key moments right for me.