Dolby Atmos, Auro, and 3D audio thread

[Nick The Slick]

Originally Posted by datlocolatino

Its really beyond me how,anyone thats into home theater would be so anti-Atmos. I can understand that For some people it may not be practical, but its an exciting time for enthusiasts regardless. Weird.

Agreed. I don't have the time, space, nor money to invest into Atmos, but the concept of it is awesome to me and I would definitely be implementing it if it were possible for me. I (admittedly) haven't even heard it in theaters, but just being able to understand how it works alone makes me excited about it. I've often wished during many movies that the dialogue hadn't been anchored and would pan around relative to the actor (which can honestly be done with the current standards, but now to have the ability go beyond that and place sounds anywhere in a 3D field? Amazing). This can be a major hit if it evolves properly and engineers/studios/producers/directors/whatever implement and support it properly.

This could be a great opportunity for in-ceiling speakers as well. I could never personally use them for my main 5/7.1 bed, but if the speakers are supposed to be on/in the ceiling in the first place, then why not? It's certainly the way I would go (assuming they have/will go the route of making specifically compatible in-ceiling's or some current models prove to be sufficient for it). Just can't see bookshelf's hanging from the ~center of my ceiling.

Only time will tell if it will mature into a standard though, and if so what it'll evolve into from there.

[gotmule]

Even if Atmos is not something you are going to pursue in your setup, we should all be happy that the industry is attempting to innovate by coming up with something new in the world of home theater. Considering that a lot of the R&D goes into soundbars and bluetooth speakers, I for one am excited that they are giving us home theater entusiasts and hobbyists something to either jump into completely, or to ponder if it makes sense. The retail space has changed drastically over the last 5 years in that the opportunity to go into a showroom to see, touch, and listen to the gear has diminished considerably. As a result the manufacturers are modifying their approach as well. The fact that the studios and the manufacturers are getting together behind a new format (even if it is not accepted by the masses and joe six pack) is a good thing in my book.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

I am not a fan of elevated speakers bouncing sound off of a ceiling as a workaround for ceiling speakers that are separately amplified based on previous experiences. For some rooms with specific ceilings this might work to some extent, but its not a good solution. As a 2D comparison you had the Bose 901's which used a array of small full range speakers to provide a mix of direct and reflected sound like you hear in a live concert, however when doing A/B comparisons it wasn't anywhere as good as a good set of tower speakers. I don't disagree that elevated speakers would not provide a more immersive experience for the home theater participant, I just seriously question the quality of the immersive environment.

The bounced speakers ARE separately amplified. If you look on the back of those new speaker systems, there are separate terminals for the "ceiling" speakers. And of course, the bounced system is only for the home, it's not done that way in theaters. Furthermore, it's optional - you can certainly install ceiling speakers. As for the quality of the sound in the home environment, you'll note that I've made no comment on that in my posts because I haven't heard it yet. It might be great, it might suck - I don't know (and unless you attended the Dolby demo, neither do you).

But I think we all have to admit that there's a lot greater chance of consumers installing this in their home when a single physical speaker cabinet contains both the primary channel and the ceiling channel speaker as opposed to having to mount separate ceiling speakers. That is unlikely with the possible exception of those folks who are lucky enough to have dedicated home theaters with ceiling heights capable of handling ceiling speaker mounting. I think that's why all of these first generation home Dolby Atmos receivers add only four channels to the 5.1/7.1 configuration - the market to go beyond that is probably quite tiny.

Having said all that, regardless of whether it's Dolby Atmos, Auro 11.1 or any forthcoming system from DTS or anyone else, I happen to be in the court that believes that this is all terribly impractical for most consumers. As much as I'm interested in it and as great as Atmos sounds in a movie theatre, I live in an apartment and there is no way any of those systems are ever making it into my home unless someone invents a speaker about 2" in diameter that sounds as good as the large systems we use today.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by datlocolatino

Its really beyond me how,anyone thats into home theater would be so anti-Atmos. I can understand that For some people it may not be practical, but its an exciting time for enthusiasts regardless. Weird.

Why is it if someone feels they don't need something, they are anti-Atmos? This is just the wrong way to look at your fellow home theater buff's!

One could simply own a 5.1 setup with a good subwoofer along with a large HDTV, and derive a huge amount of pleasure in a normal room size and not want or care for anything more. Would someone want to buy a new AVR equivalent to what they have now just to get a built-in Atmos decoder? How about the thought of fiddling with additional speakers and wiring?

Perhaps they have this setup in their living room and don't want to make it look tacky, since they enjoy the look of the room? This is quite common. Think your spouse is going to jump up and down putting speakers in the ceiling. Selling her on a 7.1 or 9.1 system is a lot easier.

Yes as Dolby pointed out you can purchase Atmos specific speakers or height speakers that they collect royalties on (yep) to put on top of your existing speakers to derive some benefit from your ceiling, but even with this your ceiling might not work out.

Part of what I posted here was just to show all sides of the Dolby Atmos discussion, what it involves, some of the benefits, some of the headaches, and for sure what are the alternatives, and future competition we might see in the near future. But if someone here posts something critical of Atmos, don't take it negatively, just consider as more insight from another perspective just as someone who has posted their insight to a demo.

[JohnAV]

This was posted to today on AVS

Just returning from my first Dolby Atmos demonstration from the IFA and hell did Onkyo do a bad job there. They used as a sound processor the 5530, as Dolby Atmos enabled speakers a very cheap looking prototype from Elac and as ceiling speakers 4 Magnat units.

First we were shown two Dolby Atmos trailer with the Atmos enabled speakers. It was just loud and the sound reflecting from the ceiling did not really create ahomogenous sound cloud from above. It seemed like parts of the reflections hit you whilst other just vaporized. Not convincing at all for the Dolby Atmos speaker! The next demo was a song from Enrique Inglesias. It was first shown through the Magnat in-ceiling speakers. Problem here was that the rear row of in-ceiling speakers was not behind me but directly above me. The cinema was a small room with two rows of three chairs. I was sitting in the middle of the second row. For the first row the speakers were a little bit behind, but I don't assune that they fulfilled the required angle. Result was that the speakers were very much audible as such. There was never the effect of arealistic sound field but just indvidual speakers that were heard. Afterwards we heard the Enrique Inglesis song again from the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers, and result was as above blurry and not convincing at all!

Final conclusion of this demo. Dolby Atmos enabled speakers didn't work at all! Ceiling speakers worked but placing of them is very important. Angles /distances have to be kept not to make the individual speakers audible.
Sorry Onkyo but you really blew it! If I wouldn't know from this forum that Atmos works, I think after this presentation I would forget about it!

PS: Afterwards I had a chance to listen to an Auro 3Dpresentation. A little booth maybe a little bit bigger then the Atmos booth was used. The speaker setup was only 5.1 and four height speakers above the Front Left and Front Right and Surround Left and Right. Height speakers were slightly tilted towards the listening position. Receiver was the Auriga from Stormaudio. Several demos were played. Standing on an open space in Amsterdam, a tractor passing by on a field road and a plane flying overhead. Finally a sequence from Dreamwork Turbo was played. That demo really blew me away! The sound was so realistic that you had the feeling of actually experiencing the individual situations. Unfortunately we did not have enough time to listen to their upmixer Auromatc but I heard from several people that this is superior to Dolby Surround!

When asking the Auro guy that currently no Auro products are availabke for less then $10k he told me to keep my feet still for some weeks as there will be more products available soon. (Appeaently D&M is working on a cobtract with Auro).

My final conclusion for today is, no proccessor without Auro 3D and speaker layout so it works for Atmos & Auro! how this can be achieved will follow in a later entry.

A interesting response was . .

Do you know if this iteration of Auro was utilizing DTS's MDA object format? That's something that has been talked about: object mixing getting added to the Auro format since Barco is a part of the MDA group.

Which was answered . . .

It was a PCM track of a demo Blu-Ray. I wouldn't think that the standard Auriga us even currently capable of doing object based audio!

[JohnAV]

Rather interesting post from someone with a wait and see opinion.

This is almost exactly the same path I've taken, so no you are not alone.

I'm all for true upgrades to existing formats, but I've never been an early adopter and never will. Something better always comes out.

My first AVR was when DTS was first showing up in AVR's and I kept it for many many years. To me there was no real upgrade until the HD formats came out. Sure, there was Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES, but that (to me) was a minimal upgrade and not really worth it. I still say the back channels aren't all that important.

I was intrigued with DSX and DTS: NEO X came out, but they remind me of all the other processing that gets more channels out of an existing sound track. They are kinda cool, but I tend to prefer the unprocessed track. I know I'll be the same with Atmos and DTS UHD. I'll get a receiver that supports both. Will I get ceiling speakers? When they make some that are better quality or I can mount a current speaker on the ceiling and the formats have matured, sure, I might. I'd have to hear a convincing demo before making the leap, or install a temporary system.

To me this is just another evolution of audio just like Dolby Digital was compared to Pro Logic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there really haven't been all that many large leaps in audio formats when it comes to movies.

Dolby Pro Logic (matrix)
Dolby Digital (discrete) New and very relevant format
DTS (discrete) Evolution beyond Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital EX (matrix) Gimmick to sell more speakers IMHO
DTS-ES (matrix or discrete) Evolution beyond Dolby Digital EX
DTS 96/24 (discrete) Evolution of DTS, higher resolution
Dolby Digital Plus (discrete) Tiny evolution beyond Dolby Digital EX
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio (discrete) Dolby Digital Plus direct competitor
Dolby TrueHD (discrete) Evolution to lossless format
DTS-HD Master Audio (discrete) Direct competitor to Dolby TrueHD
Dolby Atmos (discrete, object based) Evolution to more channels, more enveloping sound (we'll see)
DTS UHD (discrete, object based) Again, Direct competitor to Dolby Atmos

So, if I had bought a new receiver every time one of these "new" formats came out I'd have owned 12 instead of 3 (I only owned 3 because one died and needed a replacement). That doesn't include the DSX, Neo:6,X, THX, PL Z, and all the other DSP's that have come about.

One question I don't remember seeing asked was whether or not the Atmos speaker configuration will be compatible with DTS UHD like the current 5.1 and 7.1 configurations are? It'd be a big mistake for those overhead speakers to be compatible with one and not the other. Talk about cornering yourself.

I will do what I normally do in these situations. Happily sit back and see what happens.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Rather interesting post from someone with a wait and see opinion.

You seem to be getting really good at posting anti-Atmos things

[JohnAV]

Home Theater Geeks 222: Dolby Atmos Questions Answered - YouTube

Two tech guys from Dolby Labs—Brett Crockett, senior director of research, sound technology, and Craig Eggers, director, home theater—explain Dolby Atmos for cinema and home theater, including its object orientation, overhead and upfiring speakers, objects and "beds," the Dolby Surround upmixer, and streaming and Blu-ray content. They also answer questions from AVS members and the chat room, including speaker placement, multiple seating rows, timbre matching, how objects and beds are assigned to speakers, video games, Atmos in headphones, retailer demos, finding Atmos cinemas, and much more.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

You seem to be getting really good at posting anti-Atmos things

Don't blame me if even the writers are pessimistic.

For example
Dolby's Atmos technology will bring another layer of surround sound to your home

Note the comments

In 2012, Dolby added a new level of immersive audio at the multiplex with its Atmos technology. Atmos allows filmmakers to place sounds in very specific places around and even above you. Now the San Francisco-based company is ready to put Atmos in your home theater, provided you’re willing to pay the price.

I heard both real ceiling-mounted speakers and virtual ones at a Dolby press demonstration. The real, overhead speakers provided the best overhead sound, but the Atmos-enabled virtual ceiling speakers still impressed me. The sound really did seem to come from above.

In this 5.1.4 Atmos setup, four "virtual" ceiling speakers fire sound upward to bounce it off the ceiling.

But I can’t promise that the effect will be as impressive in your home. These speakers were expensive prototypes built by Dolby, and they were played in a mock home theater room at Dolby’s lab. I have to assume that this room had fantastic acoustics, and a ceiling designed for bouncing sound waves. Of course, that’s the problem with vendor-controlled demonstrations. You get an ideal experience, not a real-world one.

But what about content?
Atmos hardware in the home or on the road will be worthless without Atmos-mixed content. Dolby promises that Atmos Blu-ray discs will appear in the near future. Any player that properly conforms to the Blu-ray specs should be able to play an Atmos soundtrack, provided you set your player properly.

The soundtrack will be backward compatible. Play it on a conventional system, and both the player and the receiver will see it as a normal 5.1 mix. A Dolby spokesperson promised that the company is working with Netflix and other major streaming services on bringing Atmos to the Internet.

If the content becomes common, wealthy home theater enthusiasts will likely jump on the Atmos bandwagon. The rest of us will probably wait and see about quality and price issues. At best, there will be a steady drip towards Atmos ubiquity—at least until something better comes along.

That last paragraph by Lincoln Spector says it all.

[JohnAV]

Now someone new to the forums watched the above AVS podcast with the Dolby Crew

Hi All,
This was an interesting PODcast.
Scott, when next you have the opportunity, can you ask the Dolby guys AND the AVR makers about support for the soon to be established open standards based object based sound? (Mouth full)
As you may know, DCI (DCImovies.com, a committee of major studios representatives that give direction to the industry. See the website if you want to know more) a while ago mandated that they want to move forward with an open standards based object based sound format.. NATO also send out a letter to all its members suggesting cinema owners wait for this form of solution as it would be best for the industry over all.

Currently PCM 24bit 48/96 PCM is what is carried in the DCPs we see in the cinema.. PCM being open and free to use by anyone. The studios (DCImovies.com) also want a open standards and free to use format for immersive/object based audio.

SMPTE has a working group working on this now..

Other vendors (USL, QSC), outside of Dolby, have a reference implementation based on DTS opening up its MDA solution which is their version of Atmos.
Vendors such as Fairlight also have authoring tools to produce these new file formats..

(Personal plug, check out my CineTechGeek.com video block on cinema technology for more coverage on these topics)

Based on all this and what we see coming down the road..
Will these Dolby/Atmos AVR be able to upgrade to play these formats when they become available?
Will we need to purchase them again if we want duel format capable AVRs?

I expect there is still a lot of gray area here as, Dolby has snuck Atmos compatibility in on its TrueHD etc codecs, how will this open standards based codec make its way into the BluRay disk. Maybe DTS has a similar idea for its codecs. All good question to track down Scott.

But in the end, as a consumer of these products, can we expect to have these new Atmos AVR be compatible with these future developments and what the Hollywood studios have mandated going forward?

Thanks,
James Gardiner
The CineTechGeek

Here's his videos

CinemaCon 2014 - 29 - DTS on the state of Open Standards in Immersive Audio - John Kellogg - YouTube

CinemaCon 2014 - 29 - DTS on the state of Open Standards in Immersive Audio

CinemaCon 2014 - 30 - Dolby Atmos Panel Discussion with Hollywood content creators and Exhibitors - YouTube

CinemaCon 2014 - 30 - Dolby Atmos Panel Discussion with Hollywood content creators and Exhibitors

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by datlocolatino

Its really beyond me how,anyone thats into home theater would be so anti-Atmos. I can understand that For some people it may not be practical, but its an exciting time for enthusiasts regardless. Weird.

It's terribly impractical, in anything but a dedicated HT. I'm running three subwoofers - call it five, if you include the ones on the Mythos ST's - and seven main speakers. That alone would be totally impractical if they weren't styled correctly, but they integrate well in a standard "formal" living room.


The ceilings are sloped, both in that room, and the family room where a 5.1 theater is set up. Atmos will not be a practical installation in either place, either as direct or reflecting speakers.


While I like the idea of nice sound, there is a very real cost/benefit analysis to do here. New receivers? New speakers? Serious and intrusive installation costs? Interference from things like ceiling fans?


It might work well in public theaters, or for those who have dedicated areas within their homes. It probably won't work well in my situations.


It's not about being an enthusiast. There's more to it than that, and I see a collapse on this thing, very soon, if practical technical solutions are not discovered.


As I've already said, this thing needs a modular addition to existing systems, not advertising (complete with lots of exclamation points) offering "fantastic deals" on new Atmos receivers. Most people don't need Atmos receivers. Give them an HDMI add on solution, perhaps it will fly.


Right now, it's not going to turn out well if this hype machine is stuck on calling everyone who isn't enamored of Atmos, some kind of technical Neanderthals. They tried that with 3-D, and it's still sitting there, waiting for the bus, late for the party.

[JohnAV]

Dolby Atmos Comes to the Home Via Blu-rayand VUDU to Transport Entertainment Enthusiasts Into a New Dimension of Sound

On September 30, 2014, Paramount Pictures will release the first Blu-ray Disc to feature a Dolby Atmos soundtrack with the #1 movie of the year worldwide, Transformers: Age of Extinction. Both the Blu-ray Combo Pack and the Blu-ray 3D Combo Pack will offer a Dolby Atmos soundtrack encoded in Dolby TrueHD. Paramount Pictures will look to support additional Dolby Atmos home theater titles via online streaming and Blu-ray Disc later this year. Dolby Atmos soundtracks are fully backward compatible, meaning they’ll play on traditional home entertainment playback systems.

Warner Bros. will also be among the first studios to support Dolby Atmos via online streaming and Blu-ray Disc offerings

This is a PR detailing how Dolby is moving forward with some dealers offering Atmos demo's along with initial films that have Atmos encoded streams.

[JohnAV]

Dolby Atmos To Dominate Home-Theater Demos

General listing of various Atmos capable gear and demos that will be visible at Denver CEDIA.

[BozQ]

Oh yes yes yes yes yes! I'm so happy to know Transformers Age of Extinction will be the first Blu-ray to feature Dolby Atmos. Though the movie itself leaves much to be desired, but the Atmos track was terrific.

This news is just perfect!

[Blu-Roey]

http://www.cnet.com/news/transformer...atmos-blu-ray/

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Oh yes yes yes yes yes! I'm so happy to know Transformers Age of Extinction will be the first Blu-ray to feature Dolby Atmos. Though the movie itself leaves much to be desired, but the Atmos track was terrific.

This news is just perfect!

I'm not a betting man but I had a feeling it was going to be the first title since the release was so close to CEDIA and Michael Bay & Dolby have a great working relationship.


I'm going out on a limb by saying I wouldn't be surprised if these titles were Atmos on release:


X-Men Days of Future Past
Maleficent
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes

[BozQ]

I had a feeling it would be Transformers. It's a great demo to kick-start Atmos for home. I can't wait for this Blu-ray now.

And wasn't X-Men Days of Future Past confirmed not to have Atmos? Wasn't it DTS-HD?

[AudioWarrior]

Originally Posted by Blu-Roey

http://www.cnet.com/news/transformer...atmos-blu-ray/

Just a general warning. This movie will be rereleased on 4k Blu-ray next year! Something to think about....

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by AudioWarrior

Just a general warning. This movie will be rereleased on 4k Blu-ray next year! Something to thing about....

4K Blu is not supposed to be ready until very late in 2015 - players may not be available until then. They haven't settled on consumer standards yet.


You probably won't see it until 2016, at the earliest. I don't think anybody will wait. I won't.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by AudioWarrior

Just a general warning. This movie will be rereleased on 4k Blu-ray next year! Something to think about....

Fixed it for you