4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by zbinks

If it weren't for third party licensees, it'd be mostly true for HD, too.

I disagree, there are many from the large studios. Honestly there is not much difference from DVD or even VHS. There was always licensees (like Criterion that was started in the 80's)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. It's funny how people are wetting themselves about Atmos which is an incredibly esoteric audio upgrade IMO, and yet when it comes to a new video format people are queuing up to stick the boot in. It's amazing how much negativity has greeted one and not the other.

I think it’s blogger and internet forum fashionable by non-owners to denigrate 4K; whereas not so with esoteric audio upgrades even though they also require some financial expenditure for new equipment upgrades in order to implement it (Atmos).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I presume the 100GB discs will be 99GB triple layer platters....

Correcto-mundo , it’s triple layer and ‘100GB’ is a slightly rounded figure, like the commonly used figure of ‘18 Gbps’ for HDMI 2.0 (http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/04/h...channel-audio/ ) whereas the exact figure is actually 17.82 Gbps….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...17#post8090709

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

BT2020

My friend , I don’t want to get your hopes up too high for guaranteed deployment of full BT. 2020 color gamut by Christmas 2015 because ‘2020’ is an *aspirational* spec that is being considered and still *pursued*. The task force is trying to offer as future-proof a spec as possible, given economical constraints and realities.

The main technical fly in the BT.2020 ointment has been display capability in the mastering suite, as explained last August (before the ‘official’ 4K BD reassurance revelation at IFA) on our HEVC thread…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ng#post9560685
but, work does progress to that end, e.g. skip to the 3 min. mark regarding the *special feature* of the Sony 4K OLED professional monitor…

NAB 2014: Sony PVM-A250 & New 4K OLED Monitor - YouTube

which is planned to ship in the Feb./March 2015 timeframe and even press announcements for acquisition and display support by another manufacturer (Canon) have recently been made - http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_...01e02480ce407c . As an aside, and in regards to acquisition (camera) support, which would be a necessary ingredient of the entire ‘2020’ delivery chain, Sony’s F65 S-Gamut is already a close match to the color gamut of BT.2020 without much massaging needed to support it.

In the long run, for some other spec perspective, the chances for getting implementation of the ‘2020’ support in 4K BD is much greater than that of getting the 48Hz frame frequency into the final spec, since that frequency was already rejected by the task force awhile ago and I really don’t expect there to be a new proposal forthcoming to reconsider supporting 48 no matter what’s going on behind the scenes with display manufacturers.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by AnamorphicWidescreen

OK, I'm not at the point where I'll be getting a 4K TV Set anytime soon...the PQ is obviously stunning, but I am waiting for the prices to go down. And, when I'm in the market for a new set (hopefully not for several more years), they will hopefully be more affordable.

So, here's my question: What size does the 4K set have to optimally be so you can tell the difference between regular Blu & 4K Blu?

To make an analogy, I have an LED HD set that's almost 50", and I can definitely tell the difference between regular DVD & Blu when watching on this set. That being said, if the set were smaller, I may not be able to tell the difference between both formats...

Thanks in advance!

You mean “optimally” as in getting the *full benefit* out of the experience?
Well, ‘optimally’ being the operative word…I’ll say that in terms of resolution only (as wider color gamut and greater dynamic range are distance independent), screen size is not thee determining factor, it’s field of view….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...fov#post785693

The general consensus being for viewers to strive for a field of view of 60 degrees for optimal benefit which equates to a 1.5 picture height screen-to-eye distance, keeping in mind at the end of the day YMMV depending upon exactly how 4K friendly the 4K Blu-ray movie is to begin with - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...st#post9573269

But (given the proper content/source that leverages image resolution), you can still get some value beyond 1.5 PH as evidenced by one consumer testing study which indicated that being as far as 9 ft. away from the screen showed the ability of 48 out of 49 observers to appreciate the difference between 4K and 1080p content with a 55” TV.…http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm

[bailey1987]

What are the chances of a format war?

If there was to be a war who and what are the likely candidates?

[AmishParadise]

I personally don't see the studios releasing titles on a 4k Blu-ray format as a given. Just because 4k Blu-ray is on its way doesn't mean the content we expect will be what's offered, much less at a price comparable to what Blu-ray titles cost when the format first launched. Are the studios really going to be willing to make theatrical exhibition quality discs available for purchase? That's a lot different than offering 4K content using a "closed" system like what Sony is doing at present with their 4K Ultra HD Media Player. The fact standards are being set and the hardware will be sold is really beside the point at this stage of the game. Naturally I won't complain if the content we expect is actually offered on 4k Blu-ray. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if the studios weren't very forthcoming as far as content goes. We just don't know yet. And please know, I'm not the doom and gloom type. I just see much of the discussion in this thread and others with respect to the content that will be offered as a "chicken before the egg" type of thing. That being said, whatever comes to pass, I'd caution anyone who decides to invest in any 4K technology today whether it be a display device or receiver to perhaps wait until the delivery system is actually made available and content to go along with it, i.e. 4k Blu-ray players and discs as from everything I've read you'll need to be HDCP 2.2 "hardware" compliant from source to display and personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable investing in that new HDCP 2.2 compliant 4k display and receiver unless I could purchase a 4k Blu-ray player at the same time and put things to the test.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

What are the chances of a format war?

Nil.

Originally Posted by bailey1987

If there was to be a war who and what are the likely candidates?

3-D fanatics looking for some way to upgrade 4K, trying to get someone, anyone, to help defibrillate the corpse of home 3-D, (making it twitch, at least) before it reeks to high heaven.


Here's the problem. To really make 4K work as a recorded medium, it needs to have a huge amount of storage available to it. Hopefully, this storage will not be the usual glut of "extras" filmed by the studio heads' nephew, that being his first director's credit in the industry.


Many good things can happen with that extra data space on a disc. The problem? Everyone wants to hog it with non-essentials.


There will be countless people howling for additional lossless tracks for more speakers (spurring sales of new equipment, of course). Fever over Atmos and Aura will run wild, to have it be something absolutely necessary for "the best experience possible".


There will be countless people (well, maybe 2 or 3 out of every hundred people) who want 3-D to be in 4K, with 2160p going to each eye, making tracks massive. This, of course, will be to try to eliminate the otherworldy unreal image that is "3-D" illusion effects, blaming the failure of 1080p 3-D on not being advanced enough, if we didn't already realize that. This will be something absolutely necessary for "the best experience possible".


Then there will be those that do not want the new technology to be backwards compatible, versus those that do, again with the mess that was the 3-D rollout held up as an example of why only a very large gang of fools would do such a thing. People who make players might like that, but broadcasters and anyone with an interest in streaming won't even have a dog in that fight. The public will hate it, as will the people who sell discs. The compromise may be that the new player will still play old discs, or so we can hope. This will be something absolutely necessary for "the best experience possible".


There won't be a real war. It won't make it to the street, with competing products and marketing campaigns. From what we saw after the 3-D debacle, no one will get the money for a full-fledged release of anything until all of this is settled. No one wants to go through the HD-DVD or 3-D experience again, even if everyone's battle cry is that they are delivering "the best experience possible".


The public isn't falling for that one again.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

My friend , I don’t want to get your hopes up too high for guaranteed deployment of full BT. 2020 color gamut by Christmas 2015 because ‘2020’ is an *aspirational* spec that is being considered and still *pursued*. The task force is trying to offer as future-proof a spec as possible, given economical constraints and realities.

Ouch, that's a kick in the pants for me. I thought the 4KBD spec mandated BT2020! So will we end up seeing a ton of Rec 709 and/or DCI P3 content instead? What color space/bit depth is usually used for film scanning and eventual DI creation for restored or new movies?

Will we also have a situation similar to what is going on with current 4K TVs (where they don't support HDMI 2.0 (full bandwidth variety) and HDCP 2.2) in 2015 where new TVs won't support 10-bit BT2020?

Thanks for the info and video link. At least full 10-bit BT2020 can be displayed at some point. I just wonder when we'll have actual content to go along with it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Ouch, that's a kick in the pants for me. I thought the 4KBD spec mandated BT2020! So will we end up seeing a ton of Rec 709 and/or DCI P3 content instead? What color space/bit depth is usually used for film scanning and eventual DI creation for restored or new movies?

Will we also have a situation similar to what is going on with current 4K TVs (where they don't support HDMI 2.0 (full bandwidth variety) and HDCP 2.2) in 2015 where new TVs won't support 10-bit BT2020?

Thanks for the info and video link. At least full 10-bit BT2020 can be displayed at some point. I just wonder when we'll have actual content to go along with it.

I never saw the word "mandated" used in relation to 2020, it was mentioned just because. I think it's best to consider 4K BD as being a container for all this potential goodness, and to start with I doubt they'll stray too far from the 709 reservation. Sure hope it's 10-bit though.

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I think it’s blogger and internet forum fashionable by non-owners to denigrate 4K; whereas not so with esoteric audio upgrades even though they also require some financial expenditure for new equipment upgrades in order to implement it (Atmos).

thats true. not many complain when audio tech evolves.

i got no problem with the advancement of video technology. if 4k looks good i'll buy it. if not i'll buy 1080p blu ray. but i won't object to advancement in technology

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by AmishParadise

I personally don't see the studios releasing titles on a 4k Blu-ray format as a given. Just because 4k Blu-ray is on its way doesn't mean the content we expect will be what's offered, much less at a price comparable to what Blu-ray titles cost when the format first launched. Are the studios really going to be willing to make theatrical exhibition quality discs available for purchase? That's a lot different than offering 4K content using a "closed" system like what Sony is doing at present with their 4K Ultra HD Media Player. The fact standards are being set and the hardware will be sold is really beside the point at this stage of the game. Naturally I won't complain if the content we expect is actually offered on 4k Blu-ray. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if the studios weren't very forthcoming as far as content goes. We just don't know yet. And please know, I'm not the doom and gloom type. I just see much of the discussion in this thread and others with respect to the content that will be offered as a "chicken before the egg" type of thing. That being said, whatever comes to pass, I'd caution anyone who decides to invest in any 4K technology today whether it be a display device or receiver to perhaps wait until the delivery system is actually made available and content to go along with it, i.e. 4k Blu-ray players and discs as from everything I've read you'll need to be HDCP 2.2 "hardware" compliant from source to display and personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable investing in that new HDCP 2.2 compliant 4k display and receiver unless I could purchase a 4k Blu-ray player at the same time and put things to the test.

in all honesty i'd rather watch current 1080p blu rays on a OLED tv than get a new 4k tv, 4k player and blu rays. i wish OLED was being talked about more.

anyway, i wouldn't buy anything 4k until 2017 when the tech will be better. i'll start saving now

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I never saw the word "mandated" used in relation to 2020, it was mentioned just because. I think it's best to consider 4K BD as being a container for all this potential goodness, and to start with I doubt they'll stray too far from the 709 reservation. Sure hope it's 10-bit though.

That's true. Somehow I thought that meant 2020 was mandated. Your analogy is a good one. Let's just hope they take advantage of the container.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Ouch, that's a kick in the pants for me. I thought the 4KBD spec mandated BT2020!

Unless something unexpectedly goes awry (like with the politics of the situation), 4K BD should get BT.2020 support in the spec, as that’s the plan…which is on track. You just won’t see/achieve full ‘2020’ because consumer displays simply (probably) won’t be capable of it by Christmas 2015. Heck, the yet to be shipped new Sony 4K OLED color critical reference monitor isn’t capable of full coverage ‘2020’, although it supports that new wide color gamut and marketing brags about it as a feature (rightfully so).

Just be patient.

As to 10bit, which I notice Geoff mentions in the following post, you’ll get that in the spec. and also, fully out of the gate with delivered content (e.g. no 9 ½ bit, to make an analogy to the BT.2020 color gamut rendering) because there are no capability issues at all restricting the mastering of content in 10bit or manufacturing 10bit displays (where there is incentive).

Originally Posted by singhcr

What color space/bit depth is usually used for film scanning and eventual DI creation for restored or new movies?

Usually? I’d say, with a project in which a facility scans 35mm film at ‘4K’ (which is actually somewhat misleading because the Northlight 2 has an 8K CCD array which produces 4K files), they’ll output at 10bit log DPX.

Now, best practice that some cutting edge facilities (which have the storage capacity) follow? Scan the neg and output at 16bit DPX. From there, uncorrected content intended for theatrical presentation is graded in DCI P3 space and for theatrical deliverables, P3 is converted to XYZ color space (12 bit pixel depth). For home deliverables (like for instance HD Blu-rays), I’ve already posted the color management pipeline explaining about the ODT and trim pass even revealing typical booking times reserved by Producers for the process here...https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...im#post9623181

Regarding best practice for a DI workflow? That be 16 bit OpenEXR ACES…http://www.oscars.org/science-techno...ESOverview.pdf starting from 16bit RAW digital camera imagery.

[singhcr]

Patience is one of my virtues, Penton... most of the time.

Thanks for all of that info! I have learned so much from your posts here, and Geoff as well. Every day I soak up more and more information to annoy the people around me at home and at work that have not the least clue or inclination to be remotely interested about such things.

"What's wrong, singhcr?"
"Oh, it was a crappy day at work. I found out that BT2020 isn't a mandated color space for the new 4KBD format. I might have to resort to watching.... 8-bit Rec 709 content! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to bury my sorrows in vinyl and 35mm color reversal negatives."
"Please stop talking to me."

[singhcr]

Do the studios save the raw output for a raw digital archive of the 35mm film, or would only the final DCI P3 graded output be saved? For example, is the new restored negative (printed from the corrected digital files) in 12-bit or 16-bit color? I am guessing 12-bit, as there appears to only be one display capable of showing 100% of the DCI P3 color space at 12-bit depth:

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...1010_final.pdf

That's the one huge advantage of optical display systems. Other than the lens, you can "upgrade" with better film stock. A 35mm projector from the 1950s could display anything from B&W nitrate film to 3-strip Technicolor to Kodak Vision3.

On the digital acquisition side, having a 16-bit DI from 16-bit RAW video is quite impressive. Although Dolphin Tale 2 isn't my cup o' tea, from a display standpoint that movie is pretty future proof. Then again, I'm enough of a nerd that I would go see it just for the PQ if it was showing on a 16-bit projector, if such a thing existed.

[AudioWarrior]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I am guessing 12-bit, as there appears to only be one display capable of showing 100% of the DCI P3

I don't think there any 4k TV's with 12-bit color space, unless I'm mistaken? I think some only have 10-bit panels and I don't know if that even covers the whole gamma range? The only manufacture I heard that may be coming out with a 12-bit 16-bit panel is Seiki with their 4k pro monitors!

Maybe Apple and Dells 5k monitors may have 12-bit panels, but as far as that goes, if TV manufactures don't get 12-bit panels, then people won't be able to take full advantage of 4k Blu-ray's color space when it comes out next year! Assuming they do support 12-bit 4:4:4???


I'd be nice if someone compiled a list of all 2014 10-bit TVs.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Patience is one of my virtues, Penton... most of the time.

Thanks for all of that info! I have learned so much from your posts here, and Geoff as well. Every day I soak up more and more information to annoy the people around me at home and at work that have not the least clue or inclination to be remotely interested about such things.

"What's wrong, singhcr?"
"Oh, it was a crappy day at work. I found out that BT2020 isn't a mandated color space for the new 4KBD format. I might have to resort to watching.... 8-bit Rec 709 content! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to bury my sorrows in vinyl and 35mm color reversal negatives."
"Please stop talking to me."

lol, I really think I’m the one that should stop talking for awhile as too much provided information can sometimes be a needless burden to carry… given everything tends to work out in the end anyway.

Your story reminds me of years ago when I hung out with some SXRD rear projection owners and potential owners-to-be on another forum who, at the time, were getting worried over having ordered (but not yet received) a certain very high end TV thinking that there were only shipping delay issues involved, so I posted relevant tidbits from the summary executive meeting notes (not available to outsiders) from correspondence with the back-in-the-day Ichinomiya plant…

Feb. 2005 Summary notes
--Based on improvements in the above three items, INY can maintain output of 30 units a day. This translates into a monthly output of 600 units.
--Further increases to product output based on yield improvements from the above items will be limited by screen capacity, which is currently 30 units per day
--The manufacture/ship quantity for March will be 450 units as of the 19th. The total quantity (since introduction of this model) by 3/19 will be 750 units minus 86 units which will be shipped back to Japan for rework due to the Blue Ghost Issue.
--Based on the above quantity scenario, INY would like immediate direction on when shipments can be switched to boat(Name scrubbed, can you please get back to INY on the appropriate timing to switch from Air to Boat)

And, bottom line, although they appreciated the Insider info, the revelations (Blue Ghost) actually freaked them out even more.

So, I withheld meeting info regarding production capability of an even newer pricey ($14-$15,000) model which, for the record, happened to be the first commercially available consumer display to use LED backlighting because I felt that the following would just add duress to the Japanese readership…

Feb. 2005 Summary notes on Qualia 005 –
--INY is currently having production issues for the Japan model due limited backlight quantities. They are unable to fulfill outstanding customer orders as a result.
--The current line capacity configuration at the factory takes only Japan's production quantities into account. Depending on the initial and ongoing quantity requirements for the U.S. market, we will need to make sure that investments in line capacity are made accordingly. Based on a June production date, we should provide feedback immediately regarding our requirements.

Worked out well for what they didn't know didn't hurt them.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by singhcr

and Geoff as well.

Geoff shows good perspective on both current and historical events.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by AudioWarrior

I don't think there any 4k TV's with 12-bit color space, unless I'm mistaken? I think some only have 10-bit panels and I don't know if that even covers the whole gamma range? The only manufacture I heard that may be coming out with a 12-bit 16-bit panel is Seiki with their 4k pro monitors!

Maybe Apple and Dells 5k monitors may have 12-bit panels, but as far as that goes, if TV manufactures don't get 12-bit panels, then people won't be able to take full advantage of 4k Blu-ray's color space when it comes out next year! Assuming they do support 12-bit 4:4:4???


I'd be nice if someone compiled a list of all 2014 10-bit TVs.

The link is for a Dolby professional reference display. I doubt we'll ever see 12-bit consumer TVs for a long, long time.