4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Canada

I heard that they BDA are at least contemplating using the same amount of storage space as current Blu-ray's. I hope to heaven that this isn't the case. I hope they use BDXl.

Most expect 100 GB disc to be in the spec.

As a point of reference the Sony UHD content for their UHD players use H.264 and average 40 to 65 GB in file size and the Netflix HEVC UHD streams seem to be in the 15 Mbps range. So some UHD titles using HEVC should be fine on a 50 GB disc.

[bailey1987]

Anybody know what the format will be referred to as? 4K Blu-ray doesn't have the same ring to it as Blu-ray does, it overly complicates it if you ask me.

I wonder if Sony will use the recently announced Archival Disc (AD), I know that they have said that it is not for consumers, but it seems like a waste if you ask me, it has a logo which could be used for the consumer format.

To be honest I hope they ditch the blue cases and that the new format carries little over from Blu-ray, ideally I want it to be it's own thing, with its own distinct look.

Worst case scenario is for the 4K discs to just be packaged in the current Blu-ray cases alongside a Blu-ray copy of the film.

Another question, all this talk about BDXL reminds me of Super VHS, did Super VHS exist as anything other than blank media? Were films available in that format? If so how was it introduced?

I can remember I had just got a new DVD player when we were sat on Humanities class in high school when the teacher said he had just bought a new Super VHS player, this was while he was getting us ready to watch a documentary on a new DVD player the school had just got.
Does anybody have any insider knowledge? Or an opinion?

Thinking about it, I can't see Sony calling it 4K Blu-ray, what about the blank media? 4K could look like it only holds 4Mb of data, there Also has to be a logo to go on the sides of the cases, as is the case with VHS, DVD and Blu-ray. Without it being something completely unrelated to Blu-ray there is only BDXL it could be.

[singhcr]

My guess would be 4K Blu-ray, Ultra HD BD, Super Blu-ray, Ultra Blu-ray, or something along those lines. I don't think too many people know what 4K means as I have to explain the term almost every time I talk to non-tech people about 4K. They do know what 1080p is to some degree, so they'll recognize 4K eventually.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Most expect 100 GB disc to be in the spec.

As a point of reference the Sony UHD content for their UHD players use H.264 and average 40 to 65 GB in file size and the Netflix HEVC UHD streams seem to be in the 15 Mbps range. So some UHD titles using HEVC should be fine on a 50 GB disc.

Netflix also streams 1080p with AVC/VC-1 at 6 Mbs per second and labels it SuperHD. If anyone has watched these signals they never match the Blu-Ray and often struggle to even surpass the unconverted DVDs for difficult to compress material. Even Netflix UHD streams while they slightly surpass the unconverted Blu-Rays on easy to compress material lose to the Blu-Ray in other areas despite 1/4 the native resolution. BD-50s may be adequate for short movies with no extras but for longer content are insufficient

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by singhcr

My guess would be 4K Blu-ray, Ultra HD BD, Super Blu-ray, Ultra Blu-ray, or something along those lines. I don't think too many people know what 4K means as I have to explain the term almost every time I talk to non-tech people about 4K. They do know what 1080p is to some degree, so they'll recognize 4K eventually.

Well any of them would work, but if you look at every format prior to Blu-ray they nearly all had extensions like BDXL but none were ever used for movies only ever were they used for home movies with the use of camcorders. If the title Blu-ray appears it will be the first format to do so. This is why I expect something we haven't heard of or AD.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Netflix also streams 1080p with AVC/VC-1 at 6 Mbs per second and labels it SuperHD. If anyone has watched these signals they never match the Blu-Ray and often struggle to even surpass the unconverted DVDs for difficult to compress material. Even Netflix UHD streams while they slightly surpass the unconverted Blu-Rays on easy to compress material lose to the Blu-Ray in other areas despite 1/4 the native resolution. BD-50s may be adequate for short movies with no extras but for longer content are insufficient

Yes it's hardly a patch on Blu-ray, and there collection is rubbish.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

Well any of them would work, but if you look at every format prior to Blu-ray they nearly all had extensions like BDXL but none were ever used for movies only ever were they used for home movies with the use of camcorders. If the title Blu-ray appears it will be the first format to do so. This is why I expect something we haven't heard of or AD.

4k Bluray is my guess (safe guess)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Most expect 100 GB disc to be in the spec.

As a point of reference the Sony UHD content for their UHD players use H.264 and average 40 to 65 GB in file size and the Netflix HEVC UHD streams seem to be in the 15 Mbps range. So some UHD titles using HEVC should be fine on a 50 GB disc.

It's worth mentioning that the version of AVC that Sony are using is the tweaked eyeIO iteration which claims an efficiency saving of up to 50% over the regular flavour, but I totally agree with what you're saying. Even normal AVC might be enough for shorter movies (say, <90 mins) in the short term, just as Blu-ray continued to use MPEG-2 for a while after it launched.

Originally Posted by singhcr

My guess would be 4K Blu-ray, Ultra HD BD, Super Blu-ray, Ultra Blu-ray, or something along those lines. I don't think too many people know what 4K means as I have to explain the term almost every time I talk to non-tech people about 4K. They do know what 1080p is to some degree, so they'll recognize 4K eventually.

Yeah, I think it'll be Ultra Blu-ray or something like that, although because the '4K' part is the buzz-word for this new technology then it'll end up in there somewhere. How about 4K Ultra Blu-ray?

[Dylan34]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's worth mentioning that the version of AVC that Sony are using is the tweaked eyeIO iteration which claims an efficiency saving of up to 50% over the regular flavour, but I totally agree with what you're saying. Even normal AVC might be enough for shorter movies (say, <90 mins) in the short term, just as Blu-ray continued to use MPEG-2 for a while after it launched.


Yeah, I think it'll be Ultra Blu-ray or something like that, although because the '4K' part is the buzz-word for this new technology then it'll end up in there somewhere. How about 4K Ultra Blu-ray?

I like that. I think blu-ray should definitely stay in the title and shouldn't be renamed something else.

[Kirsty_Mc]

Super Blu-Ray or ED-Blu-Ray if Sony want to hark back to the days of Betamax.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, I think it'll be Ultra Blu-ray or something like that, although because the '4K' part is the buzz-word for this new technology then it'll end up in there somewhere. How about 4K Ultra Blu-ray?

That's the most likely term, yes.

So what will the tagline be for the format, then? The only time I remember explicit Blu-ray commercials for a title was the last few Harry Potter films, that promised "perfect picture and perfect sound."

So is the 4K Ultra HD BD tagline going to be "super ultra picture and perfect sound", or will they say "10-bit Rec 2020 (sometimes) but typically 8-bit Rec 709 with HDR and perfect sound... depending on the title?"

I would pay money to sit in those focus groups!

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Even normal AVC might be enough for shorter movies (say, <90 mins) in the short term, just as Blu-ray continued to use MPEG-2 for a while after it launched.

Blu-Rays use of MPEG-2 in early releases did it no favors. One thing that prolonged the format war in its early days that HD-DVD launched with VC-1 and dual layer right out the get and those releases easily surpassed the BD-25 MPEG-2 encoded releases of the formats early days. I would prefer if the new Ultra HD format didn't make the same mistakes Blu-Ray made at its launch

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Blu-Rays use of MPEG-2 in early releases did it no favors. One thing that prolonged the format war in its early days that HD-DVD launched with VC-1 and dual layer right out the get and those releases easily surpassed the BD-25 MPEG-2 encoded releases of the formats early days. I would prefer if the new Ultra HD format didn't make the same mistakes Blu-Ray made at its launch

This is the reason why I had HD DVD.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

This is the reason why I had HD DVD.

Because of HD-DVD the Blu-Ray format was forced to launch prematurely. Hence why early releases were so crappy. Many of which have since gotten remastered double dips to fix the early formats problems. But for Ultra HD Blu-Ray there is no format war to worry about its only competitor for the 4k market is with 4k streaming. Since obvious purchasing 4k discs is going to be more expensive than an Ultra HD Netflix membership its very important that the discs be a clear improvement right out the gate to prove to home theater buffs (who will be the only market at first) that its worth the investment

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Since most manufacturers have already rolled out their 4K TVs as 4K Ultra-HD or UHD it only seems to make sense that 4K Ultra Blu-ray is the name of the new format. UBD for short. VHS, LD, DVD, BD, UBD. Seems simple enough.

Nice to see that movie files will be arrox 65% larger than regular BD files for archiving purposes. Makes sense to since it's only the picture getting the bump not the audio and it's roughly doubling the size. Even better if new codecs can work to shrink that a bit more. Now HD manufacturers need to up their game to faster, better 10TB drives, and fast!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Blu-Rays use of MPEG-2 in early releases did it no favors. One thing that prolonged the format war in its early days that HD-DVD launched with VC-1 and dual layer right out the get and those releases easily surpassed the BD-25 MPEG-2 encoded releases of the formats early days. I would prefer if the new Ultra HD format didn't make the same mistakes Blu-Ray made at its launch

MPEG-2 still provided an excellent image for HD, and if it had enough bits to go around, so much the better. HD DVD was hardly the saviour it's made out to be, it didn't help that most of its exclusive proponents stuck to lossy audio like glue, and the VC-1 bit rates took a hell of a beating when studios like Warners also had to squeeze in lossless, a PiP stream and other HD extras, or when they simply used single layer 15GB discs.

I don't know if you've seen any AVC encoded 2160p material, because I have and it looked outstanding, so I don't consider 4K Ultra Blu-ray to be making the same "mistakes" if it utilises AVC at the beginning. Hell, as HD DVD proved, if you launch a format fully formed then that's great to begin with, but you run the danger of resting on your laurels and not be able to adapt to newer challenges. As long as 4K UBD is as flexible as Blu-ray has proved to be - it did win the format war, after all - then AFAIC they can use AVC 8-bit 4:2:0 to begin with and then ramp it up from there.

[bailey1987]

Pointless to launch if they are not going 10 or 12 bit, lets face it if there is no chance of a war it may as well be a finished format that launches with a complete specification that is completely next generation.

As for the audio if there not going to bake in Dolby ATMOS and DTS MDA they may as well not bother, Blu-ray has at least one of them cobbled in so why can't 4K have it cemented in. Also why not up the Khz and bit depth whilst at it? There has to be some selling point other than more pixels.

Also from what I have read there will be a new laser which is more purple in colour than it is blue.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

MPEG-2 still provided an excellent image for HD, and if it had enough bits to go around, so much the better. HD DVD was hardly the saviour it's made out to be, it didn't help that most of its exclusive proponents stuck to lossy audio like glue, and the VC-1 bit rates took a hell of a beating when studios like Warners also had to squeeze in lossless, a PiP stream and other HD extras, or when they simply used single layer 15GB discs.

I don't know if you've seen any AVC encoded 2160p material, because I have and it looked outstanding, so I don't consider 4K Ultra Blu-ray to be making the same "mistakes" if it utilises AVC at the beginning. Hell, as HD DVD proved, if you launch a format fully formed then that's great to begin with, but you run the danger of resting on your laurels and not be able to adapt to newer challenges. As long as 4K UBD is as flexible as Blu-ray has proved to be - it did win the format war, after all - then AFAIC they can use AVC 8-bit 4:2:0 to begin with and then ramp it up from there.

It was the 24p that did it in the end, that and Warner. HD DVD didn't do 24p the way Blu-ray was it somehow down converted a 30p image to 24p whereas Blu-ray's did 24p without the hassle. What can be annoying now is that 4K will be native 60p rendering any argument over 24p a moot point.

Also something I would like to point out is that all this 24p does my head in. I need PAL speed up back which is what I hope 60p will achieve because a lot movies I had on DVD now feel like they are running backwards.

Another headache inducing experience with all this 24p was when I hooked up a 28" LCD TV to my PC everything was 24p which was beyond shi t for games.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

MPEG-2 still provided an excellent image for HD, and if it had enough bits to go around, so much the better. HD DVD was hardly the saviour it's made out to be, it didn't help that most of its exclusive proponents stuck to lossy audio like glue, and the VC-1 bit rates took a hell of a beating when studios like Warners also had to squeeze in lossless, a PiP stream and other HD extras, or when they simply used single layer 15GB discs.

I don't know if you've seen any AVC encoded 2160p material, because I have and it looked outstanding, so I don't consider 4K Ultra Blu-ray to be making the same "mistakes" if it utilises AVC at the beginning. Hell, as HD DVD proved, if you launch a format fully formed then that's great to begin with, but you run the danger of resting on your laurels and not be able to adapt to newer challenges. As long as 4K UBD is as flexible as Blu-ray has proved to be - it did win the format war, after all - then AFAIC they can use AVC 8-bit 4:2:0 to begin with and then ramp it up from there.

I never called HD-DVD a savior I brought it up simply to point out why Blu-Ray launched prematurely. Likely if HD-DVD hadn't existed Blu-Ray would have launched months later with BD-50s and AVC/VC-1 right out the gate but Blu-Ray couldn't give its rival too much of a lead so they had to launch something even if it was substandard. As BD-50s were introduced Blu-Ray quickly took its place as the superior of the two formats and I'm very glad it won

As for AVC 2160p I'm sure it could provide a great picture at a high enough bitrate but its awfully wasteful and on a BD-50 would be the next gen equivalent of Blu-Rays substandard BD-25 MPEG-2 releases.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

I never called HD-DVD a savior I brought it up simply to point out why Blu-Ray launched prematurely. Likely if HD-DVD hadn't existed Blu-Ray would have launched months later with BD-50s and AVC/VC-1 right out the gate but Blu-Ray couldn't give its rival too much of a lead so they had to launch something even if it was substandard. As BD-50s were introduced Blu-Ray quickly took its place as the superior of the two formats and I'm very glad it won

As for AVC 2160p I'm sure it could provide a great picture at a high enough bitrate but its awfully wasteful and on a BD-50 would be the next gen equivalent of Blu-Rays substandard BD-25 MPEG-2 releases.

I agree. If there was to be a war I could see Sony using AVC just so it could use a 100Gb disc, once it had won it would then swap to BD 50's and HEVC instead of just using high bit rate HEVC on a 100Gb