PS3 dts hd???

[cam555]

Does anyone have the slightest Idea on when DTS HD playback will be supported by the PS3? I cannot wait any longer for this...lol.

[eayala]

As far as I know it already is, look at Aeon flux DTS track..it seems HD and is supported, also I'm not sure but I believe Monster House is DTS?

[theknub]

no, it currently does not support DTS HD playback. it will be updated supposedly via firmware to do it but it has not been released yet. my hope would be that it will be about when the new 1.3 receivers come out. sony would not want their flagship product not being able to work with the new products.

[eayala]

Hey thanks for the update.

[atdm71]

yep, ya gotta wait for a firmware upgrade as it doesn't support DTS Master Audio out of the box. HDMI 1.3 receiver is also on my wish list!!...

[Jodi]

Originally Posted by eayala

As far as I know it already is, look at Aeon flux DTS track..it seems HD and is supported, also I'm not sure but I believe Monster House is DTS?

Negative.....Monster House BD does not have DTS. It has Dolby and LPCM for sound. Also, it's a movie from Sony Pictures.
Sony Pictures BDs have never had DTS -- they prefer the LPCM.
Aeon Flux does have DTS (Thanks, Paramount).

Jodi

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Jodi

Negative.....Monster House BD does not have DTS. It has Dolby and LPCM for sound. Also, it's a movie from Sony Pictures.
Sony Pictures BDs have never had DTS -- they prefer the LPCM.

Because PCM blows any compressed formats out of the water.

Aeon Flux does have DTS (Thanks, Paramount).

You'll notice Paramount has pretty much ended DTS support on Blu-ray, seeing as 640Kbps Dolby Digital is more efficient than DTS (think MPEG4 AVC vs. MPEG2). They'd rather devote more space to picture quality than a redundant audio track.

In any case, the PS3 supports regular DTS decoding. It does not do DTS-HD or DTS-MA...yet. It's probable that Sony will update the PS3 to decode them when DTS gets their head together and helps them do it.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Because PCM blows any compressed formats out of the water.

This gospel truth simply cannot be repeated enough or emphasized enough.

[takezo]

Because PCM blows any compressed formats out of the water.

Because PCM is Uncompressed, it's actualy a RAW 5.1 channel track

Dolby Digital True HD, and DTS HD are the only way you will get 7.1 channel audio.

Right now PS3 is unable decode DTS HD tracks to LPCM format. However if you have a HDMI equiped, DTS HD or Dolby Digital True HD enable Home Theater Reciever, the digital signal will be passed through HDMI to your reciever via bitstream, much like how standared DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 is passed through your optical cable. 5.1 PCM, DTS HD, Dolby True HD is only availible via HDMI and decoded by a capable reciever.

PS3 only outputs a stereo LPCM format from optical inputs. Thus the raw 5.1 PCM on blu-ray is only stereo when using PCM track on a normal HT reciever. Note that audio also decoded by PS3, such as a DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1, HD or not will be output as Stereo PCM.

Standard DTS 5.1 and DD 5.1 tracks don't seem so bad now do they?

[PeterTHX]

huh?

The PS3 will output "raw" 7.1 PCM. It does on "The Descent", "Crank" and "Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence" (Japanese import). Note on the first 2 titles: they are actually 6.1 but the channel is duplicated. Several games such as "Resistance: Fall of Man" are also output as 7.1 PCM.

It also remains to be seen if the PS3 can output the raw TrueHD and DTS-MA bitstreams to an outboard receiver with HDMI 1.3. According to early reports, it cannot and has to convert TrueHD to PCM (and SACD to PCM). DTS-MA support is even sketchier since DTS has yet to show Sony how to do it in software.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by Jodi

Sony Pictures BDs have never had DTS -- they prefer the LPCM.

You should be happy about this as DTS is a lossy substitute for LPCM!

[atdm71]

a few quick questions for anybody with some expertise on the subject:

1) Are DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD, "lossless" formats?

2) While common sense would dictate "lossless" is better, because I am assuming that when you get "lossless", you're getting an identical transfer of the audio used in the original master (in theatres) - does this mean no improvements are made through DTS Master Audio or Dolby True HD (or other?), thus making these inferior grade audio to "lossless" and/or "PCM"?

OR

3) IF DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD are "lossless" formats, what would be the difference between the two, and PCM?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by atdm71

a few quick questions for anybody with some expertise on the subject:

1) Are DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD, "lossless" formats?

yes they're supposed to be.

Originally Posted by atdm71

2) While common sense would dictate "lossless" is better, because I am assuming that when you get "lossless", you're getting an identical transfer of the audio used in the original master (in theatres) -

a clarification: the sound you get in theaters is NOT the lossless, up to 24 bit, original masters. Optical, magnetic tracks are analog dupes, and DolbyDigital (AC-3) and DTS in the theaters are compressed audio like on home digital discs and in fact are compressed more than the 640 kb/s and 1.5 Mb/s home formats. (can't remember at the moment the exact DTS spec, it's been a while ). Since Laserdisc we've kinda have had better sound at home than in theaters.

Originally Posted by atdm71

does this mean no improvements are made through DTS Master Audio or Dolby True HD (or other?), thus making these inferior grade audio to "lossless" and/or "PCM"?OR

No, they should be superior to theater sound (see above) and equal to PCM cus:

Originally Posted by atdm71

3) IF DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD are "lossless" formats,

so

Originally Posted by atdm71

what would be the difference between the two, and PCM?

Lossless just means no data is lost or thrown out. There can be lossless compresion: DTS HD MA, DolbyTrueHD, MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing), flac, etc, vs lossy compression (regular DD and DTS in home and theater sound, mp3, etc). PCM is Pulse Code Modulation one method used to record and store the raw uncompressed digital lossless audio. The advantage that DTS HD MA and Dolby TrueHD promise on Blu-ray over LPCM is smaller, compressed, but still lossless audio files in place of the bigger uncompressed lossless PCM files so you have A: more storage space B: Can allocate more quality to the video file C: compability with those that don't have equipment to decode those HD tracks, but have common DD and DTS decoders, without having to include additional sound files for them that would take disc space, because the DTS HD MA and Dolby TrueHD can have DD and Dolby cores.


For the differences between the two D's I'll leave for others to post

[metalore]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

yes they're supposed to be.

a clarification: the sound you get in theaters is NOT the lossless, up to 24 bit, original masters. Optical, magnetic tracks are analog dupes, and DolbyDigital (AC-3) and DTS in the theaters are compressed audio like on home digital discs and in fact are compressed more than the 640 kb/s and 1.5 Mb/s home formats. (can't remember at the moment the exact DTS spec, it's been a while ). Since Laserdisc we've kinda have had better sound at home than in theaters.

When they make the movie (on the set), are they recording in analog or digital?

-metalore

[Filterlab]

Originally Posted by metalore

When they make the movie (on the set), are they recording in analog or digital?

-metalore

Chances are that recording is done in the digital domain, probably DAT or a variant of it - far better quality than any hard drive style recorder.

[atdm71]

Deciazulado - thank you! I VERY much appreciate the time you have taken to explain some of the science behind these new formats!! A lot is being said about the promise of each format. Of particular interest is "lossless compression", which initially strikes me as a bit of an oxymoron, but I get it.

So with all said, when I upgrade to a receiver, which in combination with my PS3 and HDMI, can support all three formats (LPCM, DTS MA, Dolby TrueHD), I will be very eager to test the extent to which LPCM "blows" Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA "out of the water", as boldly claimed earlier in the thread. Not an easy test, because very unlikely you'll find one BD with all three audio options, but over time, as we hear more reference examples of all three used, and we all upgrade to components that can properly deliver each format, perhaps we'll have a well founded opinion on just how much of a dissappointment it really is to have Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA used as opposed to LPCM for our favourite titles.

Having seen / heard DTS deliver the goods over the years on standard def DVD, I am admittedly highly suspicious of the "gospel" that compressed lossless formats like DTS Master Audio is/will be "blown out of the water" by LPCM if heard on a similar title, but I will approach these claims with great interest, and open ...ears.

[halmo20]

Originally Posted by atdm71

Deciazulado - thank you! I VERY much appreciate the time you have taken to explain some of the science behind these new formats!! A lot is being said about the promise of each format. Of particular interest is "lossless compression", which initially strikes me as a bit of an oxymoron, but I get it.

So with all said, when I upgrade to a receiver, which in combination with my PS3 and HDMI, can support all three formats (LPCM, DTS MA, Dolby TrueHD), I will be very eager to test the extent to which LPCM "blows" Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA "out of the water", as boldly claimed earlier in the thread. Not an easy test, because very unlikely you'll find one BD with all three audio options, but over time, as we hear more reference examples of all three used, and we all upgrade to components that can properly deliver each format, perhaps we'll have a well founded opinion on just how much of a dissappointment it really is to have Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA used as opposed to LPCM for our favourite titles.

Having seen / heard DTS deliver the goods over the years on standard def DVD, I am admittedly highly suspicious of the "gospel" that compressed lossless formats like DTS Master Audio is/will be "blown out of the water" by LPCM if heard on a similar title, but I will approach these claims with great interest, and open ...ears.

LPCM definitely blows away 'Regular DD and DTS'. I am yet to hear Dolby THD or DTS-MA... But since both formats are lossless (kind of like using winzip to zip files, unzip it you get same content,) I am reluctant to think they will be much (if any) inferior to LPCM...

Hope PS3 decode DTSma soon...

[IamNhobdy]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

There can be lossless compresion

Are you sure you don't mean to say encoding here? Compression, by it's very nature, reduced dynamic range which as I understand the term has a lossy result. If I'm not mistaken, other traditonally lossy encoding methods can be lossless if you don't compress them while encoding. The problem before was always that us audio guys were given the left over scraps of space to work with so we had no choice but to use compression. With the higher capacity Blu-ray discs offer, on a BD-50 you can (at least in theory) have perfect audio regardless of the encoding method used because of all the space to store your uncompressed sound to match your high quality picture.
The fact that this stuff is all digital is the reason we have/need these encoding methods. They tell the system to make the speakers move the air in such a way that it creates whatever sounds you're listening to. This is kind of an over simplification of digital to analog conversion.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by IamNhobdy

Are you sure you don't mean to say encoding here? Compression, by it's very nature, reduced dynamic range which as I understand the term has a lossy result.

Terms in one field doesn't mean the same thing in another. In this instance, compression and lossy/lossless is applied to how data is handled and not audio.

For example, the original recording of an album may be at 24-bit 192kHz. To master that album to a CD, which is a 16-bit, 44.1kHz you have to compress (audio term) the recording to fit to the format. The same thing applies when the album is meant for DVD-Audio (Stereo MLP is fine but not for multichannel).

Speaking of MLP, this is where audio compression and data compression meets. Once the album is audibly made to fit DVD-A's format, it must now undergo data compression of 2:1 using MLP. Otherwise, the data won't fit because the uncompressed data is just too big.

If I'm not mistaken, other traditonally lossy encoding methods can be lossless if you don't compress them while encoding.

I don't understand this.

The problem before was always that us audio guys were given the left over scraps of space to work with so we had no choice but to use compression.

If by "before" you mean DVD or Laserdisc, then yes. It's done simply because there is no way the audio data can fit on the disc without lossy compression.

With the higher capacity Blu-ray discs offer, on a BD-50 you can (at least in theory) have perfect audio regardless of the encoding method used because of all the space to store your uncompressed sound to match your high quality picture.

Currently Sony PHE's BD releases have all uncompressed PCM audio . However, they are at 16-bit. It could be because the master is at 16-bit. As you increase the sampling rate to 20- or 24- bit, the more space the PCM audio takes on a BD, which may or may not affect the video.

That is why DTS HDMA and Dolby TrueHD (an off-shoot of MLP) is going to be used more in the future. Uncompressed PCM audio is losslessly compressed (data term) to a 2:1 ratio or more so that redundant data pattern can be excised. This lossless data compression is not the same as the psychoacoustic lossy compression schemes such as DTS, Dolby Digital or MP3 formats where the uncompressed PCM audio is first excised of the higher and lower frequencies that is deemed unimportant for human ears and then that audio stream is compressed to reduce redundant data pattern.

With future releases and as newer receivers come into market, more BD titles will carry DTS HDMA and Dolby TrueHD soundtracks simply because they will match the uncompressed PCM audio and their inclusion will save space for a higher video quality.


fuad

[desmond]

I think some people are confusing sampling and compression. When you buy software it comes compressed and when it is uzipped it is bit equivalent of the master. Same thing with lossless audio formats - uncompressed it is identical to the master. Legacy formats produce equivalents of the sampled master.
DTS HD MA has not been implemented by any third vendors as of now - first public demo of this technology is coming up soon. My bet is that Sony will the first one to implement it.