Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978)

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

First of all, I was talking about the enhanced (2000) 5.1 soundtrack not the new 4K disc. Secondly, how do you actually know the new 4K disc has a straight conversion of the 70mm 6-track? Is that a guess based on what you hear or did someone reviewing it get that information from the studio?

Sorry, that wasn't very clear from your statements. I agree that the 2000 "Thau" mix in any format is a considerable variation/departure from anything heard during the original theatrical run.

I believe the 5.1 DD on the new 4k disc is a relatively direct conversion of the 70mm 6-track (Dolby Stereo Surround) based both on what I hear and from the assessment of someone in the Home Theater Forum (.com) that I know to be heavily involved in motion picture soundtrack production and editing. It seems to be a reasonable assessment based on what is known about why the "Thau" mix was created for the SE DVD in 2000. The 5.1 DD on the 4k definitely does not contain the new sound effects or other known "Thau" enhancements.

[Purploros]

Originally Posted by Purploros

You’ll believe a cinematographer’s intentions.

Not to contradict myself, but finally playing this disc on a SDR display via my day-old Panasonic DP-UB820, the picture appears desaturated compared to the same 4K transfer streamed through Movies Anywhere.

I’d expect darkening from the HDR-to-SDR conversation, as seen with the other titles I’ve sampled (The Big Lebowski, The Dark Knight, and the first two Raimi Spider-Man films), but not the draining of all color.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

Who determines where the line is between bending and breaking?

The individual does. Your definition might be radically different from mine, sure. I'm just saying what home theater enthusiasts typically favor, but there are people who love DNR and revisionist tinting and all manner of other things on this forum, let alone out "in the wild."

Visually, there's nothing you can do about the filtering. But I would advocate many reviewers at least mention the video is a limited improvement over the previous Blu-Ray. The people on here that were disappointed mentioned reading how great the 4K disc was only to find it wasn't.

I'd actually agree with you that reviewers went overly ga-ga over this one, acting like it's a revelation. It's nowhere near the top tier of catalog UHDs from the time period.

[imsounoriginal]

After watching this last week and posting my thoughts, I went back and read others' reactions. Was surprised that people weren't gaga over this tbh. I think this is easily among the better catalog releases we've gotten on 4K, at least that I've seen.

[Geoff D]

Eh. Even within the remit of Geoff Unsworth's filtered-to-**** photography it still looks unnaturally soft in terms of grain at times, it's got some glaring source issues that really should've been fixed up (dupe sections, visible garbage mattes during Kal's flight from Krypton that I've never seen on any previous version, ditto for the ugly 'bands' during that final flight of Supes over the Earth as the Sun rises at the end) and, speaking purely on a subjective level, I hate how they've graded the reflective Kryptonian suits in HDR.

But a MASSIVE thumbs up for putting the 70mm mix on there in 5.1, even if it is only 640 kb/s Dolby Digital.

[imsounoriginal]

Agree on the HDR grade, at least in terms of it maybe not being super faithful. Practically needed sunglasses at times lol

[Geoff D]

And yet the weird thing is that those reflective suits look super DULL to me. Maybe I'm just conditioned to 2000 nits worth of peak brightness but those suits aren't hitting anywhere near that. Yes, I love HDR and how it works to resolve highlight information, but this is one case where I didn't want/need to see every stitch and crease in the material of their suits and I want them to ****ing radiate out from the screen, highlights be damned.

[imsounoriginal]

Oh weird, you didn't get retina-searing brightness off those suits, or even the orange when Krypton meets its fate?

Not trying to check you on any of this, just trying to confirm that I have my settings right.

[Geoff D]

Krypton going up looks great, so do plenty of the other bright highlights in the film, it's just those damned suits. I mean, there's still light coming off of them but it's nothing like what I expected.

[Geoff D]

One thing I will say though is that the Dolby Vision appears to be killing the brightness on the suits on my TV, in HDR10 they look a lot livelier. (Still not what I'd call mega bright, but brighter than before for sure.) Never had this problem with any other DV movie, for when I switch between the two then the general brightness levels are maintained, and even in the rest of STM the highlights seem to be unaffected between the two modes, but damn. Will have to forego DV on this one in future.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

One thing I will say though is that the Dolby Vision appears to be killing the brightness on the suits on my TV, in HDR10 they look a lot livelier. (Still not what I'd call mega bright, but brighter than before for sure.) Never had this problem with any other DV movie, for when I switch between the two then the general brightness levels are maintained, and even in the rest of STM the highlights seem to be unaffected between the two modes, but damn. Will have to forego DV on this one in future.

Interesting. I almost don't want DV capability because I'd spend hours and hours comparing them.

[MartinScorsesefan]

Originally Posted by Purploros

Not to contradict myself, but finally playing this disc on a SDR display via my day-old Panasonic DP-UB820, the picture appears desaturated compared to the same 4K transfer streamed through Movies Anywhere.

I’d expect darkening from the HDR-to-SDR conversation, as seen with the other titles I’ve sampled (The Big Lebowski, The Dark Knight, and the first two Raimi Spider-Man films), but not the draining of all color.

Completely opposite experience watching this on my Epson 5030ub projector with the Oppo. Really rich, deep colors, and no black crush at all.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Interesting. I almost don't want DV capability because I'd spend hours and hours comparing them.

I've had problems with Dolby's black levels on my TV so I guess it's only fitting that I'm now having white level problems!

[stan67]

I know many people like the 4k but to be it looks to hazy. I prefer the Blu-ray Edition that has the 3 hour television cut.

[Geoff D]

Given my suspicions about the DV I felt compelled to rewatch this in HDR10 - this time with the HDR Optimiser of the Panny 820 player, rather than Dolby Vision which isn't the Lord and Saviour of HDR that it's painted as, not on my TV anyways as I'm slowly finding out - and I enjoyed the presentation a LOT more. It's certainly not a night and day difference to be sure, but it makes just enough of a difference to overcome several of the problems I had with this transfer. (Notice no declared "re-review" status at the top ^ as I'm gonna put these things on hold for a while, HDR is just too much of a cluster**** for me to keep pretending like I know what I'm talking about.)

First off: the Kryptonian suits. Dull as ****ing ditchwater on the DV, much more livelier in HDR10. Still not burning my eyes out from 20 paces - I did a colourimeter measurement on Trevor Howard's suit in the "be warned, Jor-El" two-shot with him and Harry Andrews, it measured 135 nits in HDR10 but only 85 in DV - but it finally has some of the visual punch that I was expecting and looked pretty damned nice this time around. And the increased brightness of the shot also brings increased colour volume, so while their faces still look a touch paler than I would like, they now look visibly healthier than in the DV rendition. Indeed, skin tones in general throughout the film lose that slightly sallow hue of before and have just a touch more vibrancy to them, which really did make all the difference.

Grain is also something that the improved brightness/APL manages to bring to the fore. I mean, this is still a Warners joint and not a Sony one so they're just not going to drown the thing in grain anyway, but with the dimmer DV it almost had a grainless look to it in the interior scenes. This time though there's definitely a fine layer of it in those sequences.

Alas, while the improved brightness didn't help the visible garbage mattes that are now visible in certain VFX shots, it made the hefty vertical banding on the 'sunrise' shot at the end look a LOT better. The bands are still there to be sure, but nothing like as obnoxious as what they looked like before. And there are moments of fizzing posterisation sprinkled throughout the film - anyone who remembers the similar moments from Warners' new 4K transfer of Unforgiven should have an idea of what I mean - which no mode of HDR viewing can do anything about, ditto for the dupe sequence in Lex's lair which should really have been fixed, but I'm much happier with this UHD than I was before. And dat 70mm audio, oh mai.

The film remains a sheer delight. I mentioned before that I wept when watching Supes and Lois take to the skies in the "can you read my mind?" scene when watching the 4K first time around, it seemed so poignant now that Kidder and Reeve have passed on, but this time I felt a powerful sense of exhilaration and joy. And the bit when Lois is interviewing Supes just beforehand is played SO well by those two. I love that nonchalant 'matter of fact' tone that Reeve answers her questions with when they're sitting at the table, the way that he holds his hand to his mouth, it's like watching any number of movie/sports superstars being aksed the same boring question over and over. So 'real'. And given what I've said about it not being cynical in the least, it loves to poke fun at certain Superman tropes nonetheless which is pretty 'meta' for a film that debuted decades before such 'post-modern' thinking emerged in filmmaking. (One could say the same about Singin' in the Rain of course, the way that it gleefully parodies the movie industry while at the same celebrating it, but that's for another thread if/when SITR ever makes the 4K cut. Dignity, always dignity...)

[StingingVelvet]

Scary that I'm seeing that stuff better than you originally did since it bothers me already lol.

[Geoff D]

I pass the mantle over to Velvet Vision™. The son becomes the father and the father, the son.

[bytor]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Given my suspicions about the DV I felt compelled to rewatch this in HDR10 - this time with the HDR Optimiser of the Panny 820 player, rather than Dolby Vision which isn't the Lord and Saviour of HDR that it's painted as, not on my TV anyways as I'm slowly finding out - and I enjoyed the presentation a LOT more.

To be fair there's nothing wrong with Dolby Vision itself, it's the piss-poor way a lot of studios are authoring it that is the problem. There's certainly a learning curve going on with it. I see many examples of bad Dolby Vision authoring on Netflix but also some really great ones too, so it's not impossible to do it right.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I pass the mantle over to Velvet Vision™. The son becomes the father and the father, the son.

I'm just not that comfortable with so much responsibility!

(I mostly meant if the bar shite at the end is better in HDR 10 then holy cow it must look like ass in DV).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bytor

To be fair there's nothing wrong with Dolby Vision itself, it's the piss-poor way a lot of studios are authoring it that is the problem. There's certainly a learning curve going on with it. I see many examples of bad Dolby Vision authoring on Netflix but also some really great ones too, so it's not impossible to do it right.

It's a great idea in principal, my wider point that I hinted at in the section you quoted is that my TV just isn't doing it properly, and people have been complaining about dim DV on Sony's TVs for a while. I didn't believe them, even took the piss out of them (sorry brasil), but now I do.

As I just said in the King Kong thread: when you've got a monster of a TV, and most movies are graded to look nice and bright, and you watch stuff in a darkened room anyway, then the dimness doesn't make itself readily apparent in most content - but on STM it really hit the image hard and from further testing across DV movies old and new the same thing is happening: the DV is heavily cutting into the brightness. I can raise the contrast on my TV to restore some luminance but then it starts to clip out highlight detail which is exactly the sort of thing that DV is supposed to guard against!

Factor in the Dolby grey bars problem which I've had to create a workaround for (an issue with the Lift (black level) control in the metadata mastering whereby the playback is transposing those raised black values onto the black bars, which Dolby are now advising against using in their official 'Best Practices' documentation: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post15977220) and that's just too much uncertainty for what I should be seeing, given how I pride my arrogant forums persona on being eagle eyed, calibrated to the nines etc etc. Forget that bollocks, now I'm just one of the regulars, flying blind when it comes to HDR.

#mikewasrightagain