The Fog (1980) 4K UHD

[JohnCarpenterLives]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

To be fair from the other thread; it seems that They Live is a winner.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

There's a bit in They Live's 4K where it definitely goes down macroblock avenue, and - surprisingly enough - it's on a shot with a lot of smoke and bright light (when Nada is running away from the second police raid and there are lots of those red flares on the ground) which is what trips up The Fog's 4K so badly. I don't think there's any deliberate improvement on SC's behalf here, that's giving them way too much credit. IMO it's because the source itself is so much brighter and a lot less grainy than The Fog that the encoder isn't troubled by it, but as soon as it comes under any kind of pressure it shits the bed big time. This is what makes me very worried for how EFNY's UHD will turn out as it's another earlier effort shot with less than stellar glass (made only a year after The Fog) and featuring a lot of darkness and a fair bit of flame and smoke here and there.

I don't know, man.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterLives

I don't know, man.

Oh, no. I didn't see Geoff's post.

[Show spoiler]

[Geoff D]

Guys, They Live looks FANTASTIC for 99.9% of it, I'm just saying that there's definitely one moment where it goes a bit Foggy in terms of the compression. That it otherwise looks as good as it does is down to dumb ****ing luck rather than any sort of skilled compression on SC's behalf. The movie mostly takes place in brightly lit locations and interiors, the movie was shot with sharper anamorphic lenses, the movie was shot with finer-grained stock - even the opticals in They Live look far better than the typically dupey, noisy shots seen in The Fog. Getting a decent encode out of a good-looking source shouldn't be difficult (though this is SC we're talking about ), it's when they're trying to encode trickier scenes in 4K that it all goes to hell.

[Rusty100]

I guess we can just hope for an overseas studio to get the same source files but do a different encode? There's slight encoding variations on different releases all the time hey.

[Geoff D]

Given that MGM own The Fog in the US and that they've shown no inclination whatsoever to release UHD Blu-ray product then the chances are very slim right now. I suppose another distributor in Spain or Italy could pick it up, one would hope that they're not just given SC's exact encode to recycle.

This is why I'm not too fussed about ED2's compression looking a bit shabby in the 4K caps, for while SC are doing the Euro disc, Lionsgate are doing the American release. Fingers crossed they're doing their own encode, I guess we'll know when the SC disc of ED2 arrives - if it's got USA in the country select menu then we're boned.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Given that MGM own The Fog in the US and that they've shown no inclination whatsoever to release UHD Blu-ray product then the chances are very slim right now. I suppose another distributor in Spain or Italy could pick it up, one would hope that they're not just given SC's exact encode to recycle.

MGM license out the ying-yang though, so if labels ever start releasing UHDs I'm sure stuff like Escape From New York will be on their radar. Though the coming UK disc being region-free might turn them off.

[StingingVelvet]

I watched The Fog 4k last night and while Geoffy is 100% accurate in his reporting I will also say I think the issue is being overblown. For the vast majority of the movie this is a stunning image. The grain is lovely and very finely resolved (even compared to the remastered blu it looks much improved), the subtle HDR adds a lot of depth and contrast to the image (the remastered blu looks good but much flatter and blanketed in tint). I put in the Shout disc after and literally laughed out loud at how horrible it looked compared. Shots of the ocean and nature will blow you away and make you wish more of the movie was set outside.

The compression issues... yes they are there, however they are more rare than I think people are understanding. There are three main moments where the compression issues are super obvious in bright lights... when the weatherman is attacked in the doorway, when Curtis reverses the truck from camera, and when the cross explodes. There is also the beach transition (which looks like ass on all three versions honestly) and one moment where I noticed some compression in blacks. I'm sure there are moments of more minor compression issues here and there that Geoffy Vision picked up, but those were the 5 I actually noticed that took me out of the movie for a brief moment. Are they unfortunate? Yes. Are they a brief second or two in a 90 minute movie? Also yes. Does the UHD still spank every other version, including the remastered BD? Yes again.

One thing that helps those moments is that the bright lights flickering in the fog almost mask the issue as part of the effect. It doesn't, to be clear, but it almost does. I actually had an issue I found more distracting. There's a scene in the boat where Atkins is sitting in the dark but a bright light is swinging back and forth above him. On my LED when the light moves away it takes a half-second for the LED to catch up and dramatically lower the light level, which looks a little odd. I had that issue only once before, in Unforgiven, when the HDR would be pumping for a torch light in a super dark scene and when it cut away from the torch there would be a VERY brief delay before the light level lowered. I don't think any OLED will have this issue. I also saw the thing with the cross dimming a moment before brightening again, though it was super brief.

In summary... it's a shame those 5 compression moments exist and are so obvious to the trained eye. That's rare today, and unfortunate. However overall, in the grand scheme of things, I think this is a lovely looking disc. I kept looking at the robust fine grain in skies and whatnot, looking for other issues, but never saw any. The remaster is lovely and the 4k version refines the grain so much better and adds such lovely texture and contrast with the HDR. I put in the normal BD and saw an instant downgrade. The brief compression moments are worth dealing with for that upgrade, IMO. Your mileage may vary.

tl;dr The UHD has brief flaws, but overall looks lovely. Depends on how much you let those flaws ruin it, but I think it's an easy win over the BD and both absolutely humiliate the Shout disc.

[Fat Phil]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I watched The Fog 4k last night and while Geoffy is 100% accurate in his reporting I will also say I think the issue is being overblown. For the vast majority of the movie this is a stunning image. The grain is lovely and very finely resolved (even compared to the remastered blu it looks much improved), the subtle HDR adds a lot of depth and contrast to the image (the remastered blu looks good but much flatter and blanketed in tint). I put in the Shout disc after and literally laughed out loud at how horrible it looked compared. Shots of the ocean and nature will blow you away and make you wish more of the movie was set outside.

[Show spoiler]

The compression issues... yes they are there, however they are more rare than I think people are understanding. There are three main moments where the compression issues are super obvious in bright lights... when the weatherman is attacked in the doorway, when Curtis reverses the truck from camera, and when the cross explodes. There is also the beach transition (which looks like ass on all three versions honestly) and one moment where I noticed some compression in blacks. I'm sure there are moments of more minor compression issues here and there that Geoffy Vision picked up, but those were the 5 I actually noticed that took me out of the movie for a brief moment. Are they unfortunate? Yes. Are they a brief second or two in a 90 minute movie? Also yes. Does the UHD still spank every other version, including the remastered BD? Yes again.

One thing that helps those moments is that the bright lights flickering in the fog almost mask the issue as part of the effect. It doesn't, to be clear, but it almost does. I actually had an issue I found more distracting. There's a scene in the boat where Atkins is sitting in the dark but a bright light is swinging back and forth above him. On my LED when the light moves away it takes a half-second for the LED to catch up and dramatically lower the light level, which looks a little odd. I had that issue only once before, in Unforgiven, when the HDR would be pumping for a torch light in a super dark scene and when it cut away from the torch there would be a VERY brief delay before the light level lowered. I don't think any OLED will have this issue. I also saw the thing with the cross dimming a moment before brightening again, though it was super brief.

In summary... it's a shame those 5 compression moments exist and are so obvious to the trained eye. That's rare today, and unfortunate. However overall, in the grand scheme of things, I think this is a lovely looking disc. I kept looking at the robust fine grain in skies and whatnot, looking for other issues, but never saw any. The remaster is lovely and the 4k version refines the grain so much better and adds such lovely texture and contrast with the HDR. I put in the normal BD and saw an instant downgrade. The brief compression moments are worth dealing with for that upgrade, IMO. Your mileage may vary.

tl;dr The UHD has brief flaws, but overall looks lovely. Depends on how much you let those flaws ruin it, but I think it's an easy win over the BD and both absolutely humiliate the Shout disc.

Were you watching in Dolby Vision, Velvet?

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I watched The Fog 4k last night and while Geoffy is 100% accurate in his reporting I will also say I think the issue is being overblown. For the vast majority of the movie this is a stunning image. The grain is lovely and very finely resolved (even compared to the remastered blu it looks much improved), the subtle HDR adds a lot of depth and contrast to the image (the remastered blu looks good but much flatter and blanketed in tint). I put in the Shout disc after and literally laughed out loud at how horrible it looked compared. Shots of the ocean and nature will blow you away and make you wish more of the movie was set outside.

The compression issues... yes they are there, however they are more rare than I think people are understanding. There are three main moments where the compression issues are super obvious in bright lights... when the weatherman is attacked in the doorway, when Curtis reverses the truck from camera, and when the cross explodes. There is also the beach transition (which looks like ass on all three versions honestly) and one moment where I noticed some compression in blacks. I'm sure there are moments of more minor compression issues here and there that Geoffy Vision picked up, but those were the 5 I actually noticed that took me out of the movie for a brief moment. Are they unfortunate? Yes. Are they a brief second or two in a 90 minute movie? Also yes. Does the UHD still spank every other version, including the remastered BD? Yes again.

One thing that helps those moments is that the bright lights flickering in the fog almost mask the issue as part of the effect. It doesn't, to be clear, but it almost does. I actually had an issue I found more distracting. There's a scene in the boat where Atkins is sitting in the dark but a bright light is swinging back and forth above him. On my LED when the light moves away it takes a half-second for the LED to catch up and dramatically lower the light level, which looks a little odd. I had that issue only once before, in Unforgiven, when the HDR would be pumping for a torch light in a super dark scene and when it cut away from the torch there would be a VERY brief delay before the light level lowered. I don't think any OLED will have this issue. I also saw the thing with the cross dimming a moment before brightening again, though it was super brief.

In summary... it's a shame those 5 compression moments exist and are so obvious to the trained eye. That's rare today, and unfortunate. However overall, in the grand scheme of things, I think this is a lovely looking disc. I kept looking at the robust fine grain in skies and whatnot, looking for other issues, but never saw any. The remaster is lovely and the 4k version refines the grain so much better and adds such lovely texture and contrast with the HDR. I put in the normal BD and saw an instant downgrade. The brief compression moments are worth dealing with for that upgrade, IMO. Your mileage may vary.

tl;dr The UHD has brief flaws, but overall looks lovely. Depends on how much you let those flaws ruin it, but I think it's an easy win over the BD and both absolutely humiliate the Shout disc.

Thanks! Ordered!

[SplitScreen]

I'm watching this in DV on a 2016 OLED E6V that has been professionally calibrated and with an OPPO 203 and the only issue I noticed (or was obvious to me a least) was the scene at the beach house. When Mrs Kobritz says "What's that now?" and the fog starts to approach the house, it flickers. The rest of the scene is fine. At the very end of the scene after the truck has reversed away, there's a final shot of the beach house shrouded in fog. The fog in that shot flickers also. No where else in the movie does this happen.

The thing I noticed most about the cross scene with Father Halloran and Blake was the cross remains a yellow gold colour even when illuminated instead of the usual hot white I've noticed in other releases and Father Halloran's face looks sunburnt lol. When the cross starts to explode, yes, the shot of Blake looks odd but only for a brief moment.

The rest of the movie to me looks very filmic. Much darker than previous releases, yes, but the grain is super finely resolved and the stand out to me was the rich/warm presentation of the colours. Much warmer than previous releases and there's a noticeable uptick in detail despite the often blurry camera shots inherent in the source.

Overall, I think it's a great release. I thought it was very comparable to Halloween (haven't watched my 4k Steelbook copy of Prince of Darkness yet) but with much richer colour throughout. The only moment of flicker I experienced in Halloween was the scene where Laurie enters the Wallace house near the climax for the first time and jumps around the entrance to the living room to see if anyone was hiding there. That shot flickered. But that's all. No where else in the film. I only mention this because others with OLEDs seem to be noticing lots of problems/flickering with these Studio Canal releases and I'm not really.

[Ms.45]

As mention before by someone. If you want to check the flickering then check the scene at the beginning with the cameo of John himself, or better said , right after that. When the brick falls out of the wall and then the father walks towards the book in the wall, that’s where it’s most obvious in the entire film.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by SplitScreen

I'm watching this in DV on a 2016 OLED E6V that has been professionally calibrated and with an OPPO 203 and the only issue I noticed (or was obvious to me a least) was the scene at the beach house. When Mrs Kobritz says "What's that now?" and the fog starts to approach the house, it flickers. The rest of the scene is fine. At the very end of the scene after the truck has reversed away, there's a final shot of the beach house shrouded in fog. The fog in that shot flickers also. No where else in the movie does this happen.

Originally Posted by 02wikked

I watched the complete UHD disc tonight in Dolby Vision using a professionally calibrated Oppo UHD-205 and LG OLED65E7 with the Oppo video out connected directly to the LG display rather than going through my Marantz AV8802a Pre/Pro. I specifically looked for pulsing, flickering or flashing during the movie, and I only noticed one 3-4 second point where an image of the fog pulsed around the 1:11:10 mark.

I need to go back to the previous discs that I have of The Fog to see if this 'pulsing' was in the previous releases and was possibly intentional.

Guys, I pulled the Shout Blu-ray and had a look at those scenes in and around the Mrs Kobritz kill and the flickering is very much evident in several of the exterior shots. It's either on the optical VFX of the fog creeping around the house or the real shots of smoke that have been sped up which is why they flicker like they do, because the frequency/flicker rate of the lighting ballast is being exaggerated. So the flicker itself wasn't "intentional" as such but was an unavoidable artefact from the processes they were using in those scenes.

Photochemically shot & finished movie is photochemical, in other words. NOT to summarily dismiss the other issues that people are seeing elsewhere on either the new BD or UHD, I've seen the terribad compression with my own eyes, but sometimes a film flicker is just a flicker and it makes it a bit harder to nail down what was always there and what wasn't without a frame of reference. Another reason why I didn't instantly sell the Shout disc.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

MGM license out the ying-yang though, so if labels ever start releasing UHDs I'm sure stuff like Escape From New York will be on their radar. Though the coming UK disc being region-free might turn them off.

I know they do mate, but the second part is the big question: IF labels ever get around to UHD.

And thanks for your thoughts on the 4K. Please note that I have actually said, repeatedly, that most of my issues with it come down to Geoffy Vision over and above the noted moments of terribad compression which even a blind man could spot. You can bet your ass that I'm watching it again, this time in DV, just as soon as I get my OPPO back though.

[Jeffrey Allen Rydell]

How are the English 5.1 mixes on these? Studio Canal Plus has had issues with past conventional BD releases relying on SD-era mixes that had presumably been speed-corrected for PAL playback, then stretched back to 24fps while still somehow retaining the PAL pitch-up.

Anyone hearing anything like this?

[bradnoyes]

I refuse to give in to fear and despair.

[kamkam]

So has anyone watched this in dolby vision yet? are the compression issues still present in that? When mine ships (which is going to be well over a month eh) it will be watched in dolby vision.

[Rusty100]

Originally Posted by kamkam

So has anyone watched this in dolby vision yet? are the compression issues still present in that? When mine ships (which is going to be well over a month eh) it will be watched in dolby vision.

They would be, as they're in the base encode itself.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Rusty100

They would be, as they're in the base encode itself.

Yes and no. The base encode is part of the stream for sure but in DV the compression has been noticeably improved for me on Saving Private Ryan (which I literally found to be unwatchable in HDR10) and Deer Hunter, potentially helped by DV's processing using the ICtCp space rather than YCbCr, as well as the obvious benefit of merging of another piece of video data into another.

People have said that the major encoding boo-boos are still there in The Fog in DV and I'm not surprised because they're such horrendous compression problems it'd take a miracle (or just a competent compressionist) to fix, but throughout the film I'm seeing the same kind of bitty, looks-like-it's-gonna-break-out-into-blocking-at-any-moment quality to the grain that I saw on Deer Hunter in HDR10, but when viewing it again in Dolby Vision the grain calmed down nicely. The nasty blockiness in the fire during the Vietnam scene with Michael is still there but the rest is tidied up pretty well, and if The Fog gets similarly tidied up in DV then I won't complain. The worst of the worst will still be there but it shouldn't look as 'fragile' as it does to my eyes right now.

[Rusty100]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes and no. The base encode is part of the stream for sure but in DV the compression has been noticeably improved for me on Saving Private Ryan (which I literally found to be unwatchable in HDR10) and Deer Hunter, potentially helped by DV's processing using the ICtCp space rather than YCbCr, as well as the obvious benefit of merging of another piece of video data into another.

People have said that the major encoding boo-boos are still there in The Fog in DV and I'm not surprised because they're such horrendous compression problems it'd take a miracle (or just a competent compressionist) to fix, but throughout the film I'm seeing the same kind of bitty, looks-like-it's-gonna-break-out-into-blocking-at-any-moment quality to the grain that I saw on Deer Hunter in HDR10, but when viewing it again in Dolby Vision the grain calmed down nicely. The nasty blockiness in the fire during the Vietnam scene with Michael is still there but the rest is tidied up pretty well, and if The Fog gets similarly tidied up in DV then I won't complain. The worst of the worst will still be there but it shouldn't look as 'fragile' as it does to my eyes right now.

How would the DV layer effect compression in the base encode? It's a metadata stream right? Changing the colour space wouldn't explain cleaning up any artifacts. I can see a scenario in which the artifacts are in a dark area, and how if a DV stream further darkened in, they would be less visible.

Short of a completely new base encode, I don't see how DV could impact compression, short of making it harder to see in dark areas.

As far as I'm aware, there is a base encode which carries HDR metadata. When DV is used, the HDR metadata is disabled and the DV metadata is used instead. So if they're both treatments to the same encode, why would DV remove inherent artifacts, being that they're not caused by the HDR but are in the encode itself.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Rusty100

How would the DV layer effect compression in the base encode? It's a metadata stream right? Changing the colour space wouldn't explain cleaning up any artifacts. I can see a scenario in which the artifacts are in a dark area, and how if a DV stream further darkened in, they would be less visible.

Short of a completely new base encode, I don't see how DV could impact compression, short of making it harder to see in dark areas.

As far as I'm aware, there is a base encode which carries HDR metadata. When DV is used, the HDR metadata is disabled and the DV metadata is used instead. So if they're both treatments to the same encode, why would DV remove inherent artifacts, being that they're not caused by the HDR but are in the encode itself.

No no no, the DV enhancement layer can and often does include physical picture information that is not part of the HDR10 base layer and the two are COMBINED during playback which is what makes DV so processor-intensive. It also includes the dynamic metadata as well of course. And their ICtCp processing space is much better suited to HDR whereas YCbCr can run into problems with higher brightness as it was not designed for the PQ EOTF.

further explanation of how DV is actually created for disc: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...3#post15680253