Cyberpunk 2077 - PS5 Free Upgrade Expected Second Half 2021

[Zivouhr]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Well, it's releasing day and date with PS5 in Europe lol

Tbh, regarding working for oneself. I would like to think i'm prepared enough for that and to earn an equivalent to what you do working the hours you do for an employer isn't too different and with the UK if you work for yourself, there's actually more tax flexibility so you end up keeping more of your money. You feel all your work is building towards something you will benefit from and get the payout for at the end.

That's cool you're ready for it, and I wish you good luck and success, Narmak.

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

That’s a big part of why I opted to get a PhD and then be a professor at a decent research university. I don’t have to mess with all that comes with being self employed, but have a ton of flexibility in how many hours I work, when and where I work them, what I research and teach etc. Other than a few meetings I rarely have to be somewhere at a time chosen by someone else, in-person teaching I have a lot of input on what days and times my classes are, my department chairs and Deans have all been very hands off etc.

All very low stress (at least after getting tenure), with decent pay on top of the freedom and flexibility. That was key for me. I don't deal that well with authority and being told what to do or rigid schedules.

That sounds good. Nice going there.

[emailking]

Crunch sucks but it's kind of a reality when companies have big projects that need to get finished.

If someone is forced to work overtime or be fired (and I wouldn't assume that's what happened) that's bad I'd say.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by emailking

Crunch sucks but it's kind of a reality when companies have big projects that need to get finished.

If someone is forced to work overtime or be fired (and I wouldn't assume that's what happened) that's bad I'd say.

I literally do not hear of this from any other profession. I don't hear this from doctors and nurses who "crunch" long hours at the hospital. I don't hear this from lawyers who put in long hours at the office when preparing for an important case. I never hear this from the film industry who puts in long hours to make a movie. Why is the gaming industry the only place where you hear this so heavily reported on? Look these guys know what they are signing up for when they go into this profession. They are well compensated and they are typically in cushy, air-conditioned work environments sitting at a desk in front of monitors. It's not like they're hot mop roofers putting in 80 hours a week in the middle of July. I'm sorry but we have REAL problems going on the world right now. I just can't find it in my heart to feel THAT sorry for these guys. Furthermore I don't know why this keeps getting reported on. Crunch is just a reality of game development, especially when it's a team of passionate artists who want to make their projects the best they can possibly make them.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I literally do not hear of this from any other profession. I don't hear this from doctors and nurses who "crunch" long hours at the hospital. I don't hear this from lawyers who put in long hours at the office when preparing for an important case. I never hear this from the film industry who puts in long hours to make a movie. Why is the gaming industry the only place where you hear this so heavily reported on? Look these guys know what they are signing up for when they go into this profession. They are well compensated and they are typically in cushy, air-conditioned work environments sitting at a desk in front of monitors. It's not like they're hot mop roofers putting in 80 hours a week in the middle of July. I'm sorry but we have REAL problems going on the world right now. I just can't find it in my heart to feel THAT sorry for these guys. Furthermore I don't know why this keeps getting reported on. Crunch is just a reality of game development, especially when it's a team of passionate artists who want to make their projects the best they can possibly make them.

What's "expected" and what should be done are two different things. Just because those examples you described happen, doesn't make them right and in fact, for Doctors/Nurses it could be downright dangerous and even lead to death of patients. Lawyers should also have enough time to prepare. If they want to spend additional time and get compensated, that's different.

This is about forcing somebody to work above and beyond normal operating expectations and its proven time and time again to be burning employees out and detrimental to productivity of employees. Why do you think Google let employees work whatever they want to as long as they get their stuff done in many areas.

[emailking]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Why do you think Google let employees work whatever they want to as long as they get their stuff done in many areas.

They probably have to crunch too sometimes to get their stuff done.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by emailking

They probably have to crunch too sometimes to get their stuff done.

Here's the thing, i appreciate that sometimes we work long hours on many things but it's a problem when you feel compelled to do so or lose your job potentially for not doing so despite fulfilling all your other contracted regulations as an employee and that's where Crunch in any industry is bad.

If somebody for example was given an overtime opportunity and wanted to do it as they're also passionate about it and get paid a bunch, fine. However mandatory crunch etc. is disgusting imo and it does burn you out.

[emailking]

I'm not assuming there was a mandatory crunch in that sense. But if there was, I think it would be better to hire some temps or offer additional incentives to their employees rather than making them feel like they had no choice.

[Vincanws]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I literally do not hear of this from any other profession. I don't hear this from doctors and nurses who "crunch" long hours at the hospital. I don't hear this from lawyers who put in long hours at the office when preparing for an important case. I never hear this from the film industry who puts in long hours to make a movie. Why is the gaming industry the only place where you hear this so heavily reported on?

Pretty well two words to be honest: Jason Schreier

He's made a crusade about the woes of being in game development, specifically the crunch part of the process. As a result, everybody not in the game dev industry is worried for them ... It's not all roses, but I'm with you in that lots of high quality professions (and many lesser) often demand crazy commitment in some regard, often to the detriment of time elsewhere.

It's like Jason is blind to the seemingly endless and iterative process of putting a AAA game together. In terms of compensation, CDPR teams seem to have it pretty good... 10% of their operating profit handed out as bonus. Apparently they're projected to make $500,000,000 profit this year. 10% of that is $50,000,000 split for their 1,000-odd employees would be around $50,000 each on average. That's a crazy good deal, better than a lot of companies, better than mine for damn sure!

I'm not convinced that endlessly delaying projects would end the need to crunch to the finish, it just prolongs the inevitable. I'd be keen to hear what actual developers had to say about the crunch on Cyberpunk, as opposed Jason. It sounds like many of them have been on it for 6 years. Wouldn't they want to be on it over-time and dedicated to pushing through crunch to get to the finish line? I mean 6 years, come on they want to go on holiday.

[CrazyBlu-RayFan]

Originally Posted by Vincanws

Pretty well two words to be honest: Jason Schreier

He's made a crusade about the woes of being in game development, specifically the crunch part of the process. As a result, everybody not in the game dev industry is worried for them ... It's not all roses, but I'm with you in that lots of high quality professions (and many lesser) often demand crazy commitment in some regard, often to the detriment of time elsewhere.

It's like Jason is blind to the seemingly endless and iterative process of putting a AAA game together. In terms of compensation, CDPR teams seem to have it pretty good... 10% of their operating profit handed out as bonus. Apparently they're projected to make $500,000,000 profit this year. 10% of that is $50,000,000 split for their 1,000-odd employees would be around $50,000 each on average. That's a crazy good deal, better than a lot of companies, better than mine for damn sure!

I'm not convinced that endlessly delaying projects would end the need to crunch to the finish, it just prolongs the inevitable. I'd be keen to hear what actual developers had to say about the crunch on Cyberpunk, as opposed Jason. It sounds like many of them have been on it for 6 years. Wouldn't they want to be on it over-time and dedicated to pushing through crunch to get to the finish line? I mean 6 years, come on they want to go on holiday.

Except Grasshopper Manufacture (No More Heroes, Killer 7, Lollipop Chainsaw) has banned crunch from their studio and has been able to release many quality and successful games throughout the years. In fact they actually delayed No More Heroes 3 because they couldn't make the 2020 release date due to Covid-19 and of course crunching to meet that release date wasn't an option. And chances are No More Heroes 3 is going to be a great sequel and hack & slash video game without having to be built on the abusive nature of forced crunch that other game companies think is necessary. Also, unlike other industries, video game developers don't have guilds and unions to protect them from abusive practices like crunch. Jason Schreier is right to call out the bull of the game industry and the harm and damage it does to people in the long run, especially when AAA companies keep cracking the whip keeping the developers from family, friends, and genuinely having a life. Some companies crunch their developers and then throw them on another project immediately to be crunched on. And for the most part if you don't crunch you're fired, have your name removed from your work, and blacklisted from the industry. Sounds very similar to what some abusers do in other professions. And there's no excuse for it, yeah games may take longer, but the product and general employee morale will be greatly improved on it, because despite what everyone thinks, you don't need to be worked to the bone and be put in physical and psychological health risks to make a good product.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Vincanws

Pretty well two words to be honest: Jason Schreier

He's made a crusade about the woes of being in game development, specifically the crunch part of the process. As a result, everybody not in the game dev industry is worried for them ... It's not all roses, but I'm with you in that lots of high quality professions (and many lesser) often demand crazy commitment in some regard, often to the detriment of time elsewhere.

It's like Jason is blind to the seemingly endless and iterative process of putting a AAA game together. In terms of compensation, CDPR teams seem to have it pretty good... 10% of their operating profit handed out as bonus. Apparently they're projected to make $500,000,000 profit this year. 10% of that is $50,000,000 split for their 1,000-odd employees would be around $50,000 each on average. That's a crazy good deal, better than a lot of companies, better than mine for damn sure!

I'm not convinced that endlessly delaying projects would end the need to crunch to the finish, it just prolongs the inevitable. I'd be keen to hear what actual developers had to say about the crunch on Cyberpunk, as opposed Jason. It sounds like many of them have been on it for 6 years. Wouldn't they want to be on it over-time and dedicated to pushing through crunch to get to the finish line? I mean 6 years, come on they want to go on holiday.

The actual irony of that bold part is that the developers were who actually have reached out to expose the Crunch CDPR has now mandated, so clearly they're not happy and on another YouTuber, he says there's also a lot of issues from when Witcher 3 was being developed. See, CDPR reached out specifically to Jason for an interview regarding Crunch at their studio and eliminating it. Then they went ahead and made it mandatory but they didn't come knocking for another interview. They kept it internal and unhappy Devs, clearly fearful of employer reprisals had decided to reach out anonymously to him and others. He's usually a go to source because of his higher reach and profile i guess of being quoted by other outlets.

Again, you have to understand its unacceptable in any industry to be forced on people. You're also guessing what the profit is actually going to look like once the bean counters have window dressed it for tax purposes and you won't get $50,000 per person at the end and divided over a 6 year period, that's an extra $8k per year that to some wasn't worth the things they'd have missed out on considering its then subject to a huge lump sum on tax.

So yeah, it's not actually as rosy as you guys paint out and it shouldn't be normalised. I'll give a great example of Crunch in another industry. Movies VFX. There's so many studios working long, long hours on multiple projects for peanuts and they were all passionate people but ended up burning out. I know some might say Corridor Digital as an example but they're a rare few who have found a niche to stay afloat. Others are working to the bone and then have to close shop. Meanwhile Disney rake in billions because of the VFX artists helping, yet claim their movies make losses etc.

So yeah, long way around. I want to support the game and CDPR devs but they need to be called out on this because it was made mandatory and they broke their own word. They didn't even try to outsource it seems.

[Talal86]

no offense but I wouldn’t compare the productions process of game like No More Heroes and Lollipop Chainsaw to The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk, so we’re talking apple to oranges

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Talal86

no offense but I wouldn’t compare the productions process of game like No More Heroes and Lollipop Chainsaw to The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk, so we’re talking apple to oranges

Whilst the complexities of said games are probably miles apart, i think the principles are what they need to stand by. Committing to something and then reneging on that looks extremely bad in this situation when they've gone on record too.

I think given how big the company is, they're more than capable of having found a way to navigate this but it has to be spun with BS PR releases to not seem as bad.

[Zivouhr]

Cyberpunk 2077 will be the game of the year for 2020 and 2021 I bet.

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I literally do not hear of this from any other profession. I don't hear this from doctors and nurses who "crunch" long hours at the hospital. I don't hear this from lawyers who put in long hours at the office when preparing for an important case. I never hear this from the film industry who puts in long hours to make a movie. Why is the gaming industry the only place where you hear this so heavily reported on? Look these guys know what they are signing up for when they go into this profession. They are well compensated and they are typically in cushy, air-conditioned work environments sitting at a desk in front of monitors. It's not like they're hot mop roofers putting in 80 hours a week in the middle of July. I'm sorry but we have REAL problems going on the world right now. I just can't find it in my heart to feel THAT sorry for these guys. Furthermore I don't know why this keeps getting reported on. Crunch is just a reality of game development, especially when it's a team of passionate artists who want to make their projects the best they can possibly make them.

Forced overtime stinks, but it's part of certain types of businesses, and you make a perfect example by mentioning Doctors and Nurses, who often have to work many hours even on holidays and their days "off".

I believe the concern is when there are 100 hour work weeks with no end in sight. 6 weeks is not impossible, but it is tough at that many hours. It takes the fun out of a job, that's for sure.

But at the same time, it's got to be pretty cool to be working on a major release game even though few read the end credits for the endless list of names in there to be recognized for their hard work.

But yeah, even a freelance artist has to crunch while juggling many art projects, putting in excessive hours to keep the business going and not miss important deadlines that result in positive or negative word of mouth feedback from the clients.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Zivouhr

Cyberpunk 2077 will be the game of the year for 2020 and 2021 I bet.



Forced overtime stinks, but it's part of certain types of businesses, and you make a perfect example by mentioning Doctors and Nurses, who often have to work many hours even on holidays and their days "off".

I believe the concern is when there are 100 hour work weeks with no end in sight. 6 weeks is not impossible, but it is tough at that many hours. It takes the fun out of a job, that's for sure.

But at the same time, it's got to be pretty cool to be working on a major release game even though few read the end credits for the endless list of names in there to be recognized for their hard work.

But yeah, even a freelance artist has to crunch while juggling many art projects, putting in excessive hours to keep the business going and not miss important deadlines that result in positive or negative word of mouth feedback from the clients.

I used to be a retail manager. During the holidays, it was nothing to work long hours like that. I remember several times where I came into the store at 7:00am, worked until close (which at the time was 10:00pm), stayed afterwards to help clean up and put out stock, go home, shower, get maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep, and come back in the next morning and do it all over again. Did it suck? Of course! But I did it because I knew it had to be done. One holiday season they plucked my assistant manager from me 2 weeks before black Friday and didn't give me a new one until after the holidays! That REALLY sucked! I almost walked because of that one.

My point is crunch happens in a LOT of professions. It's not just game development. Right or wrong, it's a reality of the job market and it's never going to change.

[harpolini]

Crunch is bad project management and for employees it should not be a job expectation simply because it is the culture. I loved Mike Bithell's anti-crunch viewpoint on Play, Watch, Listen where he goes more in-depth on in.

10 minute crunch discussion, timestamp 56:35:

https://youtu.be/bUXvNlRHWMg?t=3397

[Zivouhr]

"Bad project management" may be true in some cases when games are being made, but it could also be like saying the programmers and artists get everything right on the first try so there's no reason for trial and error when making a game.

There's tons of trial and error when making a game and then more trial and error just to get it running as planned, since things go wrong when least expected in games. That causes delays and is a good reason for forced overtime in order to meet the deadline so the game isn't in development limbo like The Last Guardian was for 7+ years.

I bet when new elements are added to Cyberpunk, sometimes those new elements with their own set of rules, could affect other things in the game world that weren't accounted for, and need to be ironed out. Glitches, game breaking bugs, crashes, stuff like that. When there are limited resources, things break and need to be fixed.

[Leonidas King]

Originally Posted by Zivouhr

Cyberpunk 2077 - NEW 2020 TV Commercial with Keanu Reeves - YouTube

Watched the new trailer. Still don't know whether or not you play as Keanu or some other dude in the cover art lol.

[harpolini]

Originally Posted by Zivouhr

I bet when new elements are added to Cyberpunk, sometimes those new elements with their own set of rules, could affect other things in the game world that weren't accounted for, and need to be ironed out. Glitches, game breaking bugs, crashes, stuff like that. When there are limited resources, things break and need to be fixed.

This game is ambitious in scope and scale and is going to be insanely good. I am going to wait about 4-6 month after the official release for this reason alone. I want to wait until millions of players play this game and unearth all the bugs, glitches and quality of life stuff devs could never spend that kind of combined time doing. My stance on open world games in general. At least we know CDPR is committed to making a great product.

I feel bad when games release "unfinished" because it can really hurt them. Kingdom Come Deliverance is one of my favorite games in recent years but I played it a year after release after all the bugs were worked out. Those initial glitches still play a part in its overall perception.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Leonidas King

Watched the new trailer. Still don't know whether or not you play as Keanu or some other dude in the cover art lol.

You play as "V" who you can model in multiple ways using a character creation tool and then select your background from three "Life Paths" and Keanu Reeves is "Johnny Silverhand" who is like an AI corruption or something guiding you with certain details during the game and he's a pretty big figure in the lore of the Cyberpunk world.

Gamespot have a LOT of lore videos on YouTube you should definitely check out to flesh out what's going on in the city and the lore behind it all.

[Leonidas King]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

You play as "V" who you can model in multiple ways using a character creation tool and then select your background from three "Life Paths" and Keanu Reeves is "Johnny Silverhand" who is like an AI corruption or something guiding you with certain details during the game and he's a pretty big figure in the lore of the Cyberpunk world.

Gamespot have a LOT of lore videos on YouTube you should definitely check out to flesh out what's going on in the city and the lore behind it all.

Thank you for that. I haven't really done much research on the game due to the fact I want to go in as blindly as possible. But that info was helpful.