3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

Example of a 120HZ display that does not use 5:5 pulldown (120HZ) or 4:4 pulldown (96HZ) for 1080P/24 material. This Toshiba will not be added to the list.
Quote
“Curiously, ClearFrame also had the negative effect of introducing slight flickering noise in areas of fine detail during camera pans — such as the Vatican wall scene from Mission: Impossible III or a moving crane shot over trees in the church-fair sequence from Hot Fuzz. Toshiba confirmed that, with ClearFrame switched on, the TV performs frame interpolation even when fed a 1080p/24 signal. That's counter to displaying each frame multiple times — a simpler technique that some other TVs apply. So ClearFrame processing was the likely culprit here.”
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2474/toshiba-regza-cinema-series-52lx177-52-inch-lcd-hdtv-page3.html

[HDTV1080P]

Update on the Panasonic PT-AE1000U refresh rates

As mentioned earlier the Panasonic PT-AE1000U refreshes 1080P/24 material at 72HZ.
Quote
“Finally, the projector will accept and display not only 1080p/60 and other common standard and high-definition resolutions, but 1080p/24 as well. It frame-triples the 24fps and displays it at 72Hz, which eliminates the judder inherent in 3/2 pulldown”
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/307panaptae/index1.html

According to page 41 of the October 2007 Perfect Vision magazine the Panasonic has an awesome 96HZ refresh rate. Possible this projector is like the JVC front projector and the refreshing of 72HZ is converted to 96HZ later on in a separate process to reduce judder even more with a 4:4 pulldown.
Quote from Perfect Vision page 41 October 2007
“One thing that is definitely more film-like than the other projectors in this survey—and most displays made today—is how the picture looks when the Panasonic gets a 1080p/24 signal. After switching on the 24fps mode in the Samsung Blu-ray player, all motion in Pearl Harbor, from flying planes to camera pans, was much smoother at 96fps with none of the jerkiness endemic to movies shown at 60fps.”

[HDTV1080P]

The Toshiba HD-A20 and HD-XA2 has been added to the list since when Firmware version 2.5 or later is applied the player will output 1080P/24 when watching most HD-DVD discs that are encoded at 1080P/24. These are the first HD-DVD players to arrive on the market that support 1080P/24.

Official Toshiba HD DVD firmware update information sheet
http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/generaldocs/0912Ver2.5UpdateNoteXA2A20.pdf

Toshiba HD DVD players run into major problems when outputting 1080p/24

I do not understand why Toshiba would release a firmware update that was so buggy that most discs lose audio sync when the player tries to play 1080P/24 natively off the disc. Toshiba needs to fix this problem with a updated firmware release.

Quote
“Unfortunately, Josh's initial testing of the 1080p24 output setting proved less successful. Although he says that 1080p24 output reduced the slight picture judder associated with the 3:2 pulldown process as normally seen on North American televisions (as well as a previously reported video stutter issue), in his testing the setting also had a negative side effect of throwing audio sync off on most of the discs played. He goes on to say that the problem was so distracting that he found himself forced to return the player to 1080i output.”
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/Toshiba/Firmware_Upgrades/Toshiba_Adds_1080p24_to_XA2,_A20_HD_DVD_Players_In itial_Results_Buggy/984

Update on the HD-A20 and HD-XA2 firmware 2.5 and motion studder issues

The Toshiba HD-A20 and HD-XA2 when playing discs recorded at a resolution different then 1080P/24 will not automatically change to 60 or 30 fps. In order to avoid frame losses, motion problems, and possible other video and audio issues one needs to research how the disc was recorded before playing it. Hopefully a firmware update will correct this issue so that consumers do not need to manually switch between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60. BLU-RAY players will automatically natively switch between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 when playing a rare disc that is not recorded at 24fps. Maybe a future firmware update to the Toshiba players will correct these issues.

Positive quote on the new firmware 2.5
“As an added bonus, the HD-A20 will upconvert standard definition DVDs to 1080p/24, with all the motion benefits that come from eliminating the 3/2 pulldown present in film-based material at 1080p/60 and 1080i/30. The smoothing was particularly noticeable in the opening scenes of Star Trek: Insurrection, as the camera pans across the haystacks and the village. To date, no Blu-ray players that we know of will do this.”

Negative quotes about the HD-A20
“I was able to confirm that the HD-A20 does, in fact, first convert a 1080p/24 film source to 1080i, and then deinterlace that 1080i to 1080p/60 prior to output. Test patterns viewed at 1080i/30 were mostly pristine, but a 1080p/60 output showed clear signs of rudimentary deinterlacing.
Specifically, the 1080i-to-1080p step uses bobbing. Bobbing is a relatively primitive deinterlacing technique that takes the two fields of each interlaced image and interpolates extra lines for each field, and then displaying them sequentially rather than weaving them back together. The more sophisticated approach is motive adaptive deinterlacing, in which the processor weaves the two fields together when there's little motion and bobs them together when there's fast motion.
But this isn't the place for an extensive review of deinterlacing techniques. The point here is that there would not be any evidence of deinterlacing at all if the player simply converted a 1080p/24 directly to 1080p/60. “
How to avoid motion studder when selecting 1080P/24 output
“But for some—generally those mastered in another HD resolution and/or frame rate—you will need to go into the setup menu and switch the output to 1080i/30 or 1080p/60 to avoid severe motion stuttering. Concert videos may be particularly susceptible to this. But there aren't enough of them on HD DVD as yet to say for certain if 1080i/30 will turn out to be the preferred mastering mode for this type of programming. “
http://ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/1007toshup/index1.html

[HDTV1080P]

Here is a review on the Pioneer PDP-5010FD which is an excellent example of a display that refreshes 1080P/24 correctly.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2486/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5010fd-50-inch-plasma-hdtv.html

Quote
“Selecting the 72-Hz Advanced PureCinema mode also resulted in very clear, solid-looking pictures when viewing movies on Blu-ray Disc with my player's 1080p/24 output active.”

[CONQUERERMTM]

HDTV1080P,

I got news from here :

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Samsung-LE...Conclusion.php

That Samsung's 81 Series manages to display 1080p at 24fps.

This european model is the correspondent to american LN-T5281F.

Could you try to confirm this information?

Thanks...

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by CONQUERERMTM

HDTV1080P,

I got news from here :

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Samsung-LE...Conclusion.php

That Samsung's 81 Series manages to display 1080p at 24fps.

This european model is the correspondent to american LN-T5281F.

Could you try to confirm this information?

Thanks...

No displays on the market refresh at 24 frames (24HZ) since a very ignoring flicker would be present. Samsung brand and many other displays on the market accept a 1080P/24 signal and 1080P/60 signal to their HDMI input. The 1080P/24 feature is only used when a 1080P/24 HDTV player is connected. Most HDTV displays that accept a 1080P/24 signal will refresh the image on the screen at 60HZ after using a 3:2 pulldown process. In the theater 35MM and 70MM film is filmed at 24fps and is flashed on the screen at 48fps or 72fps. In order to get the improved picture quality with reduced judder from a 1080P/24 source film on the BLU-RAY or HD-DVD disc one needs to own a HDTV display that refreshes the image at multiplies of the original frame (48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, 120HZ, etc). In general most of the time the higher the refresh rate at multiplies of the original frame the less motion artifacts one will see.
Currently to my knowledge all the Samsungs use an incorrect refresh rate of 60HZ when receiving 1080P/24 material. I am constantly watching for professional reviews and detailed press releases from manufactories that choose to use “TRUE 1080P/24 refresh rates”. Hopefully soon more displays will be added to the list.

[HDTV1080P]

Here is a link to an article that was published at High Def Digest today called
“What's the Big Deal About 1080p24?”
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Whats_the_Big_Deal_About_1080p24/1015

[HDTV1080P]

I want to say thanks to the members on this forum for being friendly and intelligent. I have noticed that this forum is completely fair. Not once has anyone so far complained that 6 HD-DVD players or 3 dual format players are included on the list.
This section of the forum contains nothing but facts and I do not care about brand names or formats when it comes to listing facts about 1080P/24 equipment.
I have been taking a small amount of heat over at HD-DVD.com for listing 18 different BLU-RAY players on the list with 6 HD-DVD players and 3 dual format players.
http://forum.hd-dvd.com/showpost.php?p=5310&postcount=34

[9thSRW]

Thanks for keeping it neutral and for knowing what you’re talking about.

I’ve been following this debate for a long time, and after all I have learned, I am left with one aching question:

Why is there no 1080p LCD that provides a 1:1 pull down ratio for both 24Hz and 60Hz material, especially given the prevalence of 120Hz LCDs? If select plasmas, front projectors and rear projectors have all got it down, why not LCDs?

It seems like it would be minor tweak in some video processor code to provide maximum video quality. Manufactures could charge a several hundred dollar premium for some minor tweak that would require very minimal capital investment. So why not?

Do you realistically see 120 Hz LCDs that provide a 1:1 pull down ratio for both 24Hz and 60Hz material on the horizon?

Please keep up the awesome work!
Thank You!

[bdrex28]

Doesn't the new Sony model A3000 do it?

I've got the 60A3000 and I could have sworn it does it.

[vynbytez]

Originally Posted by Blackraven

You can also include the following units from Pioneer:

Pioneer Pure Vision HD Plasma Displays
PDP-507XG and PDP-427XG (7th gen Pioneer Plasma TV panel)

http://www.pioneer.com.sg/storefront/brochure/7GPDP.pdf

Take note though that these are only for Asia-Pacific, Middle East, Australia and New Zealand. So for you people over there in "Stateside" , I dunno if you have an equivalent model for it.

Here's the funny thing though:
It CAN accept a 1080p/24fps signal but it CANNOT do 1080p at 50 and 60hz modes.

In other words, this is not 100% FULL HD. :P

hi guys. why can't i play any games on 1080p using this plasma tv?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by bdrex28

Doesn't the new Sony model A3000 do it?

I've got the 60A3000 and I could have sworn it does it.

There is a strong possibility that your Sony correctly displays 1080P/24 material. I am waiting for a professional review before adding it to the list. I know the Sony will convert 60HZ material to 120HZ but I am not sure how it converts 1080P/24 material to 120HZ. If it does a 4:4 pulldown (96HZ) or 5:5 pulldown (120HZ) then it correctly is displaying 1080P/24 material.
The Sony SXRD Front and Rear Projectors are excellent TV's. Sony’s SXRD front projectors correctly display 1080P/24 material and most likely the new SXRD rear projectors in theory should do the same.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by 9thSRW

Thanks for keeping it neutral and for knowing what you’re talking about.

I’ve been following this debate for a long time, and after all I have learned, I am left with one aching question:

Why is there no 1080p LCD that provides a 1:1 pull down ratio for both 24Hz and 60Hz material, especially given the prevalence of 120Hz LCDs? If select plasmas, front projectors and rear projectors have all got it down, why not LCDs?

It seems like it would be minor tweak in some video processor code to provide maximum video quality. Manufactures could charge a several hundred dollar premium for some minor tweak that would require very minimal capital investment. So why not?

Do you realistically see 120 Hz LCDs that provide a 1:1 pull down ratio for both 24Hz and 60Hz material on the horizon?

Please keep up the awesome work!
Thank You!

Most likely there might be several Sony LCD and Rear Projectors that correctly display 1080P/24 that are not on the list yet

There are many different brands and models of 120HZ LCD and rear projector displays on the market that convert 60HZ material to 120HZ and either do not accept a 1080P/24 signal or convert the 1080P/24 signal to 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process before going to 120HZ. It costs more to make a display that does a 4:4 pulldown (96HZ) or a 5:5 pulldown (120HZ). Rumors are that Sony might be the first company that has a LCD display and rear projector that uses either 4:4 or 5:5 pulldown.
The problem with researching this information is that who every is designing the Sony website is not making things clear. For example Pioneer clearly in its product literature mentions 3:3 pulldown 72HZ.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/477134713PRO-150FD.pdf

Not once does Sony use a buzz word like 4:4 pulldown or 5:5 pulldown on its website. To make matters worse I am seeing all kinds of errors on the Sony website while trying to research information. For example it is a known fact from several different reviews that the old VPL-VW100 reviewed back on December 2005 only had a 1080P/60 input and no 1080P/24 input since the HD-DVD and BLU-RAY format did not exist in the year 2005 in the US.
Review link
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/1205sony/
When visiting Sony’s website this old projector from the year 2005 is listed as having a 1080P/24 input.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=11040281
Then when one looks on page 69 of the instruction manual only 1080P/60 and 1080P/50 are supported. This $9,000 front projector from the year 2005 is listed incorrectly as accepting a 1080P/24 signal on the Sony web page.
http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/VPLVW100.pdf

Then reading the manuals on the Sony webpage it does not go into details how the 120HZ works. Normally on most displays that have true 1080P/24 refresh rates the display will automatically refresh at multiplies of the original frame when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. Then the display will refresh at 60HZ with most other signals automatically. With the different motion modes mentioned in the Sony rear projector SXRD manual it is confusing how it works and if one needs to manually switch it when going between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60. It talks about if the image flickers to switch the motion mode off. Why would the display not automatically switch off when it starts flickering? These new Sony displays really need an in-depth professional review to explain the different motion settings and if any of the modes are for 1080P/24 material. It appears mode 1 might be for 1080P/24 material.

[HDTV1080P]

Samsung BDP-2400 has been removed from the list since it has been canceled.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Dual-Format_Players/Samsung/Report:_Samsung_Cancels_BDP-2400_Blu-ray_Player,_Delays_BD-UP5000_Dual-Format_Player/1020

Original link
http://wesleytech.com/samsung-bdp-2400-blu-ray-player-canceled/380/

Quote
“There is no word on why this decision was made. If I were to guess, I’d say they couldn’t meet the October 31 deadline for BD 1.0 spec. I hope this means they’re going to have a 1.1 spec player available soon.”

If the reason for the cancellation of the BDP-2400 is because they could not launch the player on or before October 31st then it is their fault for poor planning and trying to release a profile 1.0 player right before the cut off date. If the BDA would have had a strict cut off date for profile 1.0 then this would be a non issue and manufactories would have released all fall players with profile 1.1 hardware support. Here is my original info post regarding the October 31st loophole for existing players.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=206150&postcount=184

Higher quality picture and sound of the BLU-RAY format and a large selection of movies is more important then PIP and BD-LIVE features that only a few people will use. Most people do not watch all the extra features on DVD or BLU-RAY. I am one of the rare persons that watches every extra feature on every movie title I own.
I am hearing that the Denon BLU-RAY players might be released in early 2008 now. So it appears that no profile 1.1 BLU-RAY players will be introduced in the year 2007. It has been reported that the LG BH200 and Samsung BD-UP5000 combo players are fully PIP and BD-LIVE compatible (The list has been updated). So it appears that 2 combo dual format players will be the only players introduced in 2007 that are both PIP and BD-LIVE compatible. For some reason combo players are better then standalone players when it comes to new features being added. For example the LG BH100 combo player had 1080P/24 support for HD-DVD discs several months before Toshiba had a 1080P/24 capable HD-DVD player. Of course the LG BH100 has its own problems like not being able to support 1080P/60 for older 1080P displays and also the LG BH100 lacks interactive support of HD-DVD discs and does not play audio CD’s. The new BH200 solves those issues.
There is a possibility that Samsung might drop the suggested retail price on the Samsung BD-UP5000 dual format player to $799 and aggressively market its dual format player. Currently the official price is still $999. The Samsung BD-UP5000 has all the features of the canceled BDP-2400 with the added bonus of playing HD-DVD discs. Also the BD-UP5000 is PIP and BD-LIVE compatible which the canceled BDP-2400 lacked.

[Bullseye]

Do you know if Sanyo is going to produce a BD player. I know they have had good relations with Sony in the past but are supposed to be neutral on the side of HD-DVD at present.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

Do you know if Sanyo is going to produce a BD player. I know they have had good relations with Sony in the past but are supposed to be neutral on the side of HD-DVD at present.

Perhaps next year Sanyo might release a BLU-RAY or HD-DVD player. I have not heard anything for a long time from Sanyo. Always a possibility of a combo dual format player since the studios are divided.

[sarnell2]

Are these still the only 1080/24 Plasmas?

1. Pioneer PRO-FHD1 1080P 50” Plasma (72Hz)
2. Pioneer PRO-110FD 1080P 50" Plasma (72HZ)
3. Pioneer PRO-150FD 1080P 60" Plasma (72HZ)
4. Pioneer PDP-5010FD 1080P 50 " Plasma (72HZ)
5. Pioneer PDP-6010FD 1080P 60" Plasma (72HZ)

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by sarnell2

Are these still the only 1080/24 Plasmas?

1. Pioneer PRO-FHD1 1080P 50” Plasma (72Hz)
2. Pioneer PRO-110FD 1080P 50" Plasma (72HZ)
3. Pioneer PRO-150FD 1080P 60" Plasma (72HZ)
4. Pioneer PDP-5010FD 1080P 50 " Plasma (72HZ)
5. Pioneer PDP-6010FD 1080P 60" Plasma (72HZ)

Yes the Pioneer Plasma’s are the only ones currently that have Plasma’s that have both a 1080P/24 input and that refresh at multiplies of the original frame. You might find some other brands that have a 1080P/24 input but they have incorrect refresh of 60HZ which is no benefit.
Sometimes it takes TV manufactories time to improve on technology that they created. A few years ago there were many displays that would throw away half the resolution when deinterlacing 1080I to 1080P. Over time most manufactories solved that problem. Then there was the issue a few years ago of 1080P sets that did not have a 1080P/60 input but only a 1080I input. Now most sets that are labeled as 1080P also have a 1080P/60 input. When BLU-RAY and HD-DVD appeared on the market there was a lack of displays that had a 1080P/24 input accept the high end Pioneer brand and some Sony and JVC Front Projectors. Then to solve that problem many manufactories started making 1080P/24 inputs on their displays but since the displays did not refresh 1080P/24 correctly it was more like a marketing buzz word to attract customers to their low cost sets that advertise 1080P/24 input.
Hopefully more manufactories will start introducing true 1080P/24 refresh rates in 2008. I have read in 2008 that possible Panasonic might start placing 1080P/24 inputs on their displays and since Panasonic already makes a good Front Projector that has a correct 1080P/24 refresh rate then most likely the 2008 line of Panasonic Plasma’s might handle 1080P/24 correctly.

[sarnell2]

you really know your sh*t...thanks a lot!

[HDTV1080P]

The following Sony rear projectors and LCD’s have been added to the list

REAR PROJECTORS
KDS-Z70XBR5
KDS-60A3000
KDS-55A3000
KDS-50A3000

LCD
KDL-52XBR5
KDL-46XBR5
KDL-40XBR5
KDL-52XBR4
KDL-46XBR4
KDL-40XBR4

All other current Sony rear projectors and LCD’s that do have a 1080P/24 input refresh 1080P/24 material incorrectly at 60HZ.

For 1080P/24 to be refreshed correctly at multiplies of the original frame on the Sony’s you must turn off Motion Enhancer.Turning on Motion Enhancer at the HDMI input where the 1080P/24 BLU-RAY or HD-DVD player is connected will result in interpolation of new frames instead of repeating each frame multiply times.
The main benefit of the Motion Enhancer is for 60HZ sources to have reduced flicker and look smoother. Also if one wants to use the Motion Enhancer for 1080P/24 material they can experience some improvements once and a while. The downside to the Motion Enhancer being turned on is that it can sometimes cause artifacts since the Motion Enhancer does not work correctly 100% of the time. Some of the problems that the Motion Enhancer can cause are a “halo” around objects and Motion Enhancer can make the image flow look unnatural.Also with the Motion Enhancer turned on 1080P/24 film material can sometimes look like 60HZ video since it makes things look smooth.

LCD’s are improving in quality but other display technologies like Plasma’s offer faster response times and better black levels compared to LCD’s.

QUOTE
“One of the weaknesses of LCDs has been motion blur; the LCD elements simply do not respond to fast changes in the image as quickly as do other display technologies (CRT is the best in this respect, followed closely by plasma).”

Quote
“There is still plenty of room for improvement, of course. The ideal (well, my ideal, at least) is the ability of a totally black screen image to meld so seamlessly into a set's black bezel in a darkened room that you can't tell if the set is on or off. But of the commercially available flat panel sets I've seen—LCD or plasma—only the new Pioneer plasmas, and to a lesser extent the latest Panasonic plasmas, approach this ideal, and none has yet reached it.”

Here is the link to the review of the Sony KDL-46XBR4 LCD
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907sonyxbr4/index.html

QUOTE

“Converting a 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 source to 1080p/120 requires simulating the additional frames in some way, since they are not in the source. There are three ways to do this: interpolation of new frames, repeating the original frame multiple times, or making every other repeated frame a black frame. Motionflow creates these addition frames by the first method—temporal interpolation.”

“If the source does not contain 3/2 pulldown, such as a 1080p/60 video-originated source or a 1080p/24 film-based source from a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame (1080p/60) or four interpolated frames (1080p/24) to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation.”

This entire 1080P/24 issue and motion settings with 120HZ displays keeps getting more complicated. I had to read the above review link several times and do some more research to see what is going on. I get the feeling the average consumer is going to get confused with all of these new settings on the Sony’s and other displays in the future that have a 120HZ refresh rates. Gone are the days when one could just purchase a TV and turn it on with out making major adjustments. If the display is setup wrong one can experience more judder and flicker then with their existing display. The settings are very important.