8K discussion thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

Right. Agreed. But the very fact that is true differentiates this from 4K and 4K format (as to realistic potential for viability). The industry itself was driving it with 4K DCP and projectors systems for cinema, a want to move to 4K mastering and CGI on the production side eventually.

The industry as a body has exactly peep to say about 8K viability by its own investment and trajectory. It's all driven by ONE company here and there, in disparate spaces that is trying to push the bleeding edge for market share.

And that pushing is unproven as yet. Years into it being talked about. Years into test balloons and trials. Years after TV manufacture tried to ram 8K down the consumer with only upscaling as a benefit. That largely failed, too.

In the sense there is more focus on the reward of better 4K display improvement than the best of the best advancements being 8K natively/exclusively.

I'm reminded of Sony there though, they were the ones pushing for 4K finishing/remastering in the noughties and teens, doing their own thing while everyone looked on in bafflement, to the extent of distributing a hard drive containing 4K movies with their first 4K TVs in 2012 and then having their own bespoke 4K download system after that. These things have often been driven by a single iconoclastic company wanting to muscle in on a market ahead of time, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But the obvious factor in Sony's case is that they were a provider of hardware and software, owning Columbia Pictures as they do, whereas Samsung have no such catalogue to exploit although I can see them going to the majors and offering to pay for 8K remasters of movies, just like NHK have done with 2001:ASO and My Fair Lady for 8K broadcast in Japan.

But again, I'm not saying this as part of some insistent assumption that 8K is going to take over the industry overnight. It. Is. Not. It's been difficult enough getting mainstream theatrical features finished in 4K never mind 8K. But streaming services are iconoclasts by their nature, especially Netflix wanting to upset Hollywood's hegemony, and they're not hindered by technical obstacles (most have been finishing out to "true" 4K for years and years already, unlike theatrical features) so if one of them decides to dabble in 8K in the coming years then I wouldn't be at all surprised.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I'm a student. I'm looking for the best teachers in the visual business.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyU2-LtWQzs#t=54m15s
additionally, Jaclyn Pytlarz, Scott Miller and of course Robin - https://patents.justia.com/inventor/robin-atkins (Masters and Ph.D. from University of British Columbia)

Not Quebec, nor Vancouver Canada, but we’re headed up to San Juan Island, Wash. this summer and I’ll look due west

[LordoftheRings]

Do you bring an 8K camera with you on vacation?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Do you bring an 8K camera with you on vacation?

In terms of capable imaging devices, I plan only on carrying this flat device in my back pocket - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post20079153 , which can also serve double duty while on the journey up to Seattle for watching the remainder of this past section meeting out of Canada and should likely cover some aspects of 8K cameras, like the 8.6K full frame image sensor in the new Venice 2 –

SMPTE Toronto Section June 2022 Meeting - YouTube

as from that ^ , I’ve only had time to get thru to François’s discussion of mixing cameras together (including super large format) with regards to the expectations of the younger demographic home audience while watching sports and his description of the capturing of ‘low hanging fruit’ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSl5h0zFUOE#t=6m25s

P.S.
Not sure, but I think I may recognize that motion picture you’ve giffed. If you’d like to learn more about that particular aerial cinematography from outside the cockpit while watching eagles soar and such in your neck of the woods, I direct you a listen to this recent podcast - https://ascmag.com/podcasts/top-gun-...vid-nowell-asc

[LordoftheRings]

I knew that your iPhone 13 Pro Max doesn't shoot 8K videos; why I didn't mention and see if you have another camera that can do 8K videos.
-----

* Vacation time:
The long weekend is coming up (Canada Day and 4th of July).
Canadian aéroports are a zoo, not enough staff, hard to not lose your baggage, and your head. And we all know the price of gasoline.

It's not the same world we live in today as it was say before 2016?
And even more so since the end of 2019.
And in particular since the beginning of the year 2021.
And add this year since near the end of Februay.

Traveling is different, people are different, the times are different, 8K has a long stretch to go before it gets a solid hold on our space. But it's inevitable, it's only a question of time...with further support and developments and patience.

** Your iPhone 13 Pro Max would do just fine shooting in 4K ... Dolby Vision HDR (up to 60fps).

Have a fantastic long weekend Penton.

[nick4Knight]

Nobody ever said 8K won't be a thing that advances. The arguments have always been that it won't have mainstream appeal like 4K UHD did. An ecosystem that sweeps the whole industry. Even if some people push the edge, that's all well and good but 3D did that, too... I think they learned something off that.

The consumers HAVE to love the stuff they're pushing. And the TV's just don't sell more than 4K. There's no reason for you to buy one.

8K if it ever goes beyond proof-of-concept stage will be like a SACD or a hires audio format. Closed, niche systems with barely any content compared to the amount of titles. For people willing to spend money on barely perceivable specs.

Anything mastered in 8K if released on disc will be put on a 4K UHD downscaled. The streaming copy will be compromised by the bitrate for the foreseeable future until like 5+ years when speeds would be fiber ubiquitous to most major cities in the gigabit range.

I see that as a lose-lose situation for the uptake of 8K. But the market is just still getting to some kind of barely maturing 4K saturation with content.

[slimdude]

You don't hear people talking, nor mention anything about 8K TVs nowhere, as if they don't even exist. Everybody is still buying 4K TVs and walking right past the 8Ks. They're not flying off the shelves like the manufacturers though they would, that's for sure! I had completely forgotten about 8K TVs because nobody is talking about them out in the world. 8K TVs were dead on arrival because they were rushed on the market as a cash grab, and without any native 8K content.

[moreorless]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm reminded of Sony there though, they were the ones pushing for 4K finishing/remastering in the noughties and teens, doing their own thing while everyone looked on in bafflement, to the extent of distributing a hard drive containing 4K movies with their first 4K TVs in 2012 and then having their own bespoke 4K download system after that. These things have often been driven by a single iconoclastic company wanting to muscle in on a market ahead of time, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But the obvious factor in Sony's case is that they were a provider of hardware and software, owning Columbia Pictures as they do, whereas Samsung have no such catalogue to exploit although I can see them going to the majors and offering to pay for 8K remasters of movies, just like NHK have done with 2001:ASO and My Fair Lady for 8K broadcast in Japan.

But again, I'm not saying this as part of some insistent assumption that 8K is going to take over the industry overnight. It. Is. Not. It's been difficult enough getting mainstream theatrical features finished in 4K never mind 8K. But streaming services are iconoclasts by their nature, especially Netflix wanting to upset Hollywood's hegemony, and they're not hindered by technical obstacles (most have been finishing out to "true" 4K for years and years already, unlike theatrical features) so if one of them decides to dabble in 8K in the coming years then I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Both 4K and 8K are quite a lot easier and cheaper to deliver if your talking material without extensive CGI which is better suited to streaming services and indeed 8K filming is becoming relatively cheap now as well with consumer camera companies offering it.

Really though I think the limiting factor will be that 8K displays advantage really only becomes notable with very large screens for most people and that means your dealing with a more limited market. You could argue I spose its a limited market that does have significant money to spend so a streaming service could potentially charge a significant premium for a handful of releases finished in 8K.

[LordoftheRings]

California 8K Video Ultra HD - The Golden State (60 FPS) - YouTube

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But again, you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of the entire streaming industry needing to find 50% more overnight. That’s not what I’m getting at, as they will all do their own thing and can unilaterally decide whether or not to adopt 8K (Apple are also in the unique position of being a hardware provider as well as software so can take a more holistic approach).

Whatever 8K systems they were to bring online would only be used by a handful of people at this point so they can easily spare that bandwidth on a trial basis (just like for Samsung and Das Boot S3) and if it were to gain popularity then the usual advances in storage and processing power would scale up alongside it in due course.

On a separate note, I think the lack of content is just as big a reason as to why no major streamer has gone 8K as of yet. Samsung paid to have Das Boot finished in 8K hence its exclusivity to their platform but without such incentives then there’s not much impetus for it.

No I never said that, let's go back to basics

Youtube has a bunch of 8k titles and there are some 8k demo disks out there. If you consider some test cases as meaningful 8k, on both physical and virtual media and the discussion was moot from the beginning.

Things don't need to bbe there over night but for me the discussion/question has always been about having enough people interested so the industry will care to release real content in 8k (i.e. you sit on your chair say "there is nothing good in 8k and watch something in 4k). Some people here think 4k can't be improved on and so no one should want/care for 8k others think it (and anything else that comes with it) can improve presentation and some some people will care about it and then the question is will there be enough people.

I think it can be a niche market, but it can still exist as a niche market. Now you seem to think that Niche market can only exist in virtual media, I think that niche market has a better chance of existing with physical media and Kaleidescape just becasue at this point in time anyone that buys on any other virtual media is already saying I don't care that much for the presentation just like someone that buys the DVD or BD. Rental is a bit more tricky because renting UHD BDs might be impossible for where the person lives and maybe the person does not want to spend the money to buy everything they watch.

like I said before I think the right timing for 8k will be in about a decade (give or take a bit) so yes technology would have advanced, but you are wrong in assuming costs will go drastically down. They don't work that way. Let me ask you this what did you pay for internet access and do you pay more today? I started off in the day s of dial up and it was 15$ a month, has technology improved? yes but I pay a lot more for internet now even if I wanted to dave and do dial up there is most likely no ISP for it and i that worked well when sites were all text but imagine using it with this site and all the images. What you are missing is as A goes down B more then makes up for it so you don't have real gains. Put it this way Joe lives somewhere with bad internet, today he connects and Netflix(....) dials it down because it sees he can't handle anything better, years pass the infrastructure is improved you would think Netflix will pay less for Joe, but he also has a much better connection so instead of dialing down it now dials up to the best connection and it is raising costs for Netflix.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

The arguments have always been that it won't have mainstream appeal like 4K UHD did.

I am not even sure what that means. Let me put it this way, there are people that still buy movies on DVd and BD even though UHD exists, there are people that subscribe to Netflix Basic (SD) and Netflix standard (HD)...
every generation some think the last one is still good enough. Honestly if Retailers hadn't said the margins on VHS are too small for us to keep carrying them (which forced studios to say they will stop producing them by the end of the year) there would still be people buying films on VHS.

Every generation there are people that were OK with the previous one that don't mind staying there because it is cheaper. That is all normal.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

No I never said that, let's go back to basics

Youtube has a bunch of 8k titles and there are some 8k demo disks out there. If you consider some test cases as meaningful 8k, on both physical and virtual media and the discussion was moot from the beginning.

Things don't need to bbe there over night but for me the discussion/question has always been about having enough people interested so the industry will care to release real content in 8k (i.e. you sit on your chair say "there is nothing good in 8k and watch something in 4k). Some people here think 4k can't be improved on and so no one should want/care for 8k others think it (and anything else that comes with it) can improve presentation and some some people will care about it and then the question is will there be enough people.

I think it can be a niche market, but it can still exist as a niche market. Now you seem to think that Niche market can only exist in virtual media, I think that niche market has a better chance of existing with physical media and Kaleidescape just becasue at this point in time anyone that buys on any other virtual media is already saying I don't care that much for the presentation just like someone that buys the DVD or BD. Rental is a bit more tricky because renting UHD BDs might be impossible for where the person lives and maybe the person does not want to spend the money to buy everything they watch.

like I said before I think the right timing for 8k will be in about a decade (give or take a bit) so yes technology would have advanced, but you are wrong in assuming costs will go drastically down. They don't work that way. Let me ask you this what did you pay for internet access and do you pay more today? I started off in the day s of dial up and it was 15$ a month, has technology improved? yes but I pay a lot more for internet now even if I wanted to dave and do dial up there is most likely no ISP for it and i that worked well when sites were all text but imagine using it with this site and all the images. What you are missing is as A goes down B more then makes up for it so you don't have real gains. Put it this way Joe lives somewhere with bad internet, today he connects and Netflix(....) dials it down because it sees he can't handle anything better, years pass the infrastructure is improved you would think Netflix will pay less for Joe, but he also has a much better connection so instead of dialing down it now dials up to the best connection and it is raising costs for Netflix.

Who said costs will go down? It'll still be expensive as fook to handle all this stuff, but as I keep saying over and over and over I'm not talking about this as being something that gets adopted overnight by the entire industry and needs a GIANT increase in bandwidth in every step of the chain. You are, I'm not. The thing about a streamer doing it is that they can unilaterally decide to go 8K or not, especially if they have some skin in the hardware game too e.g. Apple. Sony used 4K (and 3D, come to think of it) as a means to shill their hardware and with Apple having computers, phones, tablets, VERR expense monitors and whatnot plus a means to distribute that content then who's to say they won't be making that giant leap for 8Kind? A company that makes a hundred billion dollars a year in pure profit can afford to have a dabble.

[edit] Does it apply to Joe Blow on the modern equivalent of dial up? No, but then these things never do. You keep focusing on the lowest common denominator as if that would make a difference/impact in any way, shape or form on whether someone provides official narrative-based 8K content, when that would be a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche as far as content is concerned. Just as Kaleidescape seem to make a living with their bespoke 4K downloads and six grand hardware then there will be a similar ecosystem for 8K streaming/downloads at some point. Will the masses be able to get it? Maybe not. Does it matter? Heck no.

[LordoftheRings]

San Diego, California in 8K Video Ultra HD - The America's Finest City (60FPS) - YouTube

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Every generation there are people that were OK with the previous [format] that don't mind staying there because it is cheaper. That is all normal.

But for the first time it will not be the same with 8K? On the current trajectory. Meaning that titles is where I draw the line. The movies Gladiator, Matrix, Speed and many others I think are required to consider it a mainstream home video aparartus were on all the previous ones AND in 4K. But seems it won't be prepared for a release on any 8K "format" whether it's digital only or -more unlikely- a physical one.

Again, on the current trajectory it seems as though only new movies and niche events/programming will be put output in 8K. And even that potential is only on the discretion of the people funding the ventures in the first place. There is a bifurcation inherent in the content space then which makes 8K more akin to a SACD or HiRes audio formats in terms of it's market potential. Hard to gain a mainstream track.

Whereas 4K UHD was iron clad locked in a roadmap by 2013 or 14 within the industry. Stragglers refused to buy in early, sure, and there's the nuance of compatability as there was a body of Digital Intermediate content that needed upscaling, but since they then turned out to be some of the best discs in history this wasn't at all a problem for the format being mainstream, and in fact it was a positive that to this day that "upscales" can be still better than some of the more middling native 4K ones.

When you go to 8K its default a niche concept. Like 3D. Every consumer NEEDS it to be native resolution content. "But where is the content" was one reason 3D failed in the broadcast space, and then eventually home video. The option was not taken up by all. This much has been clear from the attempted rollouts thus far on 8K.

You could make an argument gaming might drive 8K content? But again the video game industry allows resolution lock. Each game decides (not the console platform) if it will allow for higher resolutions. They now have 8K, 4K and 1080p gaming options for game makers to optomise for. They can decide to ignore 8K so they better optimise your experience for the two lower ones and in the design phase less downsides to productivity to render poly counts and texture sizes etc.

Then your TV is useless to take advantage of that game you love. Now you have a fancy 8K TV you got for gaming in 8K and your favourite games only 1 in 5 actually deliver that at 60fps. So I actually think gaming is compromised too in terms of being the driver.

This isn't me now engaging in delayed boomer logic because I am done. I'd be fine and welcome a new format, eventually, but my thinking it's legitimate and worth investing requires it to have mainstream potential.

It needs to seem like 4K did well before it was a format. There was 4K scanning of film content nearly a decade before any disc saw the light of day. There was 4K projection in commercial theatres similarly well before the disc format. Those alone were writing on the wall signals to the future. Where is 8K scanning beyond the rare use case of "large format" 65mm? Where is one company that has hundreds of movies that everyone wants to have as collectors mandating 8K mastering is on their roadmap?

Just. Don't. See. It.

[Eleton84]

People posting about gaming bringing in 8k makes a lot of sense. Not all games need a high frame rate to enjoy and would look awesome with higher resolution. Ps5 and xbox both advertise as being 8k ready. But they dont have 8k players so does that mean they will upscale the graphics or does it mean you have to dowload the extra information when you install the game. And if there is a ps5 pro could it possibly have a more advanced disk drive to read bigger games. Either way it seems like gaming is the key to 8k. Also You can buy a 65" lg qned99 8k tv for 2 grand even. Which is getting more affordable. And people with prime memberships can buy expensive items with payment plans with no credit card. That is a big way they push out their tvs. I think there is a possibility they could sell 4k players that upscale to 8k like they did with the original 4k players upscaling blu rays. Maybe they will have some other feature like 8k streaming or a hard drive to dowload 8k content so it will play better and it wont have to buffer with slow internet.

[LexInHD]

If you want to know what's going on with 8K, you keep an eye on the sneaky Asian companies that are heavily invested in pushing 8K tech. LG, Samsung, Sony, TCL, and others are all involved in 8K and have formed an official 8K consortium to collaborate and control 8K tech and content. The official 8K TV spec is minimally mandating an (obviously) 8K 60hz display panel with 600nit HDR and a hardware system with HDMI 2.1 and HEVC decoding. Obviously, pretty much every 8K TV being sold exceeds those specs, so it's not exactly a big thing. In South Korea, they are now shooting dramas in 8K 3D and the previous generation of RED cinema cameras that drove the boom of 4K drama productions over the past decade are being swapped out for the latest 8K production-grade model, which can do up to 120fps in 8K. In Japan, they have already completed several dramas in 8K, with more on the way.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

If you want to know what's going on with 8K, you keep an eye on the sneaky Asian companies that are heavily invested in pushing 8K tech. LG, Samsung, Sony, TCL, and others are all involved in 8K and have formed an official 8K consortium to collaborate and control 8K tech and content. The official 8K TV spec is minimally mandating an (obviously) 8K 60hz display panel with 600nit HDR and a hardware system with HDMI 2.1 and HEVC decoding. Obviously, pretty much every 8K TV being sold exceeds those specs, so it's not exactly a big thing. In South Korea, they are now shooting dramas in 8K 3D and the previous generation of RED cinema cameras that drove the boom of 4K drama productions over the past decade are being swapped out for the latest 8K production-grade model, which can do up to 120fps in 8K. In Japan, they have already completed several dramas in 8K, with more on the way.

It makes sense that Japan would be shooting in 8K. They are the only country in the world that has a dedicated 8K channel though it rarely sees new content. This SAT channel has been up since Dec. 2018. It has not been enough to spur sales of 8K TVs though.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Who said costs will go down? It'll still be expensive as fook to handle all this stuff, but as I keep saying over and over and over I'm not talking about this as being something that gets adopted overnight by the entire industry and needs a GIANT increase in bandwidth in every step of the chain. You are, I'm not. The thing about a streamer doing it is that they can unilaterally decide to go 8K or not, especially if they have some skin in the hardware game too e.g. Apple. Sony used 4K (and 3D, come to think of it) as a means to shill their hardware and with Apple having computers, phones, tablets, VERR expense monitors and whatnot plus a means to distribute that content then who's to say they won't be making that giant leap for 8Kind? A company that makes a hundred billion dollars a year in pure profit can afford to have a dabble.

[edit] Does it apply to Joe Blow on the modern equivalent of dial up? No, but then these things never do. You keep focusing on the lowest common denominator as if that would make a difference/impact in any way, shape or form on whether someone provides official narrative-based 8K content, when that would be a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche as far as content is concerned. Just as Kaleidescape seem to make a living with their bespoke 4K downloads and six grand hardware then there will be a similar ecosystem for 8K streaming/downloads at some point. Will the masses be able to get it? Maybe not. Does it matter? Heck no.[/QUOTE]


I am sorry if I miss-represented what you said I took "if it were to gain popularity then the usual advances in storage and processing power would scale up alongside it in due course." as meaning when it gets interesting the 50% more needed per user when they are watching 8K will be easier for them to afford. My point was that it does not work that way. I gave the analogy of internet speeds but use anything you want in technology. If Peter Bought a top of the line PC a few years ago maybe today with Joe's specs the PC will be 500$ but today those are not the specs of a top of the line PC those are the specs of an entry level PC and if Paul bought a 500$ computer back than and wants a new one he can't save money by buying similar specs as back then because no one makes a PC with those specs any more.

I get what you are saying for example a TV manufacturer can make an agreement with Netflix, add an 8k player on their smart TV, Netflix makes a show or two available in 8k and because of the number of people that will get the TV , find the show to their liking, live in the right area with the right BW it will have a negligible effect on Netflix. I just don't consider that scenario as having 8k content available, and like I said before if you do then why don't you consider the content on Youtube or 8k demo disks as counting?

What I am talking about is if and when 8k becomes viable (i.e. let's say most new releases are released in 8k). will that happen soon? will it happen over night? I don't think so but I do hope and think it will be eventually true and the question is how big does that niche need to be and what infrastructure is needed.

[Lee A Stewart]

The 8K infrastructure is well on it's way. But not how many of you might envision.

Part of the specs for ATSC 3.0 deals with 8K transmissions. Each station has 57 Mbps capability. What's missing is the commerical use of VVC. Tests have already been successfully completed broadcasting 8K at 85 Mbps using the current HEVC codec. VVC will reduce the bandwidth to fit inside their max capicity transmission system.

Will they broadcast 8K content? There are two different and opposing theories on that:

Yes - they will want to offer something no other transmission system (SAT/CBL/IP) will do. When HD first became available it was only on ATSC 1.0 (OTA)

No - they will break up their bandwidth allotement into X number of HD channels and Y number of SD channels. And MAYBE offer a once a year special sporting event in 4K.

[slimdude]

Originally Posted by Eleton84

People posting about gaming bringing in 8k makes a lot of sense.

People don't need 8K to play video games! Heck they don't need 4K to play games either for that matter. People can play and enjoy their games exactly the same in 1080p or whatever resolution the game is encoded in.