The Apartment 4K UHD (1960)

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by stlcards

Has anyone recently got The Apartment off of Amazon? Did it still have a slipcover?

I ordered it on the current sale yesterday, supposed to be here tomorrow, I'll let you know.

[Bellicose]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

If the UHD isn’t how this movie is supposed to look, then well, it should be. I thought this looked absolutely stunning.

Most directors tend to like a darker picture in my experience if you are to choose from a washed out version and one with deeper blacks. I think the Arrow version looks pretty awful honestly.

[DanFan]

Ordered mine from the Barnes and Noble sale. It came with a slip. Whoop-de-do!

[FragnitoM]

mine from B&N arrived yesterday with slip as well

[Warm Gun]

Watching it now. Only ever watched the old DVD and the MGM Blu-ray that only had 5.1. I'm sure the mono is very filtered, because I have the volume about seven increments higher than usual and it's still not that loud, with no noise at all.

Also gotta echo there being too much contrast. I don't need the picture to pop. Dial it back, damn it.

[KilloWertz]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Watching it now. Only ever watched the old DVD and the MGM Blu-ray that only had 5.1. I'm sure the mono is very filtered, because I have the volume about seven increments higher than usual and it's still not that loud, with no noise at all.

Also gotta echo there being too much contrast. I don't need the picture to pop. Dial it back, damn it.

You think there's too much contrast with literally every disc. At least every one I've seen you comment on. It's you or your TV, not the discs.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by KilloWertz

You think there's too much contrast with literally every disc. At least every one I've seen you comment on. It's you or your TV, not the discs.

Not every disc. But a lot of them.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

"On the Region-B release the gamma settings are slightly elevated, while on the Criterion release they are set properly."

How does the reviewer know the Criterion is the correct brightness? Are they just going off years of Criterion bias? They darken all their movies over competitors.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Eureka looks better to me. I don't think the gamma is elevated. I can probably do what Criterion does by adjusting my TV settings. But I can't get the details back that are lost by them adding so much contrast. For the same reason, when I backed up my Essential Fellini, I deleted Nights of Cabiria and kept only my Studio Canal.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Reason I did this is because Criterion overdoes it with the contrast in their {black and white} transfers, nearly always, to the point that darker details disappear into the darkness. It doesn't really look like black and white of the era, makes it look more revisionist.

......

Yeah, to bring it up again, really don't know why Criterion thinks it necessary to darken so many of their movies so much. If you set your TV's brightness closer to recommended levels, you already get very nice contrast with the StudioCanal disc.

[tama]

Nah, sounds like mainly your set up. I've too seen your comments and scratch my head.

[Warm Gun]

Scratch your head because I spot flashing black bars in a few movies that others don't. Even though they're very obvious. My TV is set almost exactly to Geoff's instructions.

[lilboyblu]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Scratch your head because I spot flashing black bars in a few movies that others don't. Even though they're very obvious. My TV is set almost exactly to Geoff's instructions.

Copying Geoff’s settings are a start when it comes to turning off the junk (like motion smoothing), but that’s not calibration. A proper calibration includes light meters, slides, equipment, access to the TV’s service menu, and someone with the knowledge of how to use all those tools (i.e. an ISF calibrator) on your specific TV. The problem is on your end. It’s not the disc.

[BluProofie]

Lol

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by lilboyblu

Copying Geoff’s settings are a start when it comes to turning off the junk (like motion smoothing), but that’s not calibration. A proper calibration includes light meters, slides, equipment, access to the TV’s service menu, and someone with the knowledge of how to use all those tools (i.e. an ISF calibrator) on your specific TV. The problem is on your end. It’s not the disc.

Yeah, I'm not gonna pay for all that stuff. If it was the TV, then what of all the black and white discs whose contrast I don't have a problem with? It's still a relative judgement. The same discs would very likely still come out unfavorably.

[nissling]

Originally Posted by stlcards

Has anyone recently got The Apartment off of Amazon? Did it still have a slipcover?

Mine shipped on June 4th and it had the slip.

Watched it tonight. Wonderful disc. The restoration is practically flawless with no artifacts of repairs, deflicker or jitter reduction. Sharpness and grain reproduction is breathtaking with exception for the opticals obviously, but they still look okay. Overall grade was very fine too. Loved the film, too.

Nissling™ approves.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Not every disc. But a lot of them.

As for gamma I believe many European releases are sticking to the power law 2.6 reference (absolute) which is used for DCI. American distributors often strive for 2.4 (relative, in reality it is 2.35±0.15), which in turn closer corresponds to broadcast standards. Personally I prefer 2.6 in a proper setup. When the content is graded and delivered correctly it really looks magnificent.

[Geoff D]

2.6 gamma?!? Jesus. I don't like going to 2.4, never mind anything higher.

[nissling]

It's the way it is, whether you like it or not. Every DCP I've ever stumbled across is mastered for power law 2.6 and color grading for theatrical release must be done with a monitor calibrated for 2.6 to get somewhat of a good idea how it'll appear on the big screen.

Personally I think 2.4 is slightly too bright for me but it can work under proper circumstances. 2.6 do put high demands on the room and calibration but in the end I clearly prefer it. I only use lower gammas like 2.2 for graphics (Windows, macOS etc).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nissling

It's the way it is, whether you like it or not. Every DCP I've ever stumbled across is mastered for power law 2.6 and color grading for theatrical release must be done with a monitor calibrated for 2.6 to get somewhat of a good idea how it'll appear on the big screen.

Personally I think 2.4 is slightly too bright for me but it can work under proper circumstances. 2.6 do put high demands on the room and calibration but in the end I clearly prefer it. I only use lower gammas like 2.2 for graphics (Windows, macOS etc).

For DCP, yes. 2.6 is fine. It’s what it’s meant to be. But you seem to be saying that home releases are mastered that way and that’s literally the first I’ve heard of that anywhere. You can clearly prefer what you like but fookin hell, that’s way too dark in the blacks for me.

[Warm Gun]

Criterion's treatment of black and white is pretty typical of other American studios' treatment of black and white, so Nights of Cabiria is as good an example as any. I don't have any other double-dips of the same masters.

[Show spoiler]

Europeans:



Americans:



Her purse is almost darkened away. The texture of the wooden stand under the nude is harder to see. The phone is not well defined.

Europeans:



Americans:



The women's hair is less detailed.

Europeans:



Americans:



Rougher shadow with less gradation. (The subs are Criterion's because I transferred them. I'm not cheating.)

If you can't see how Americans' tendency for high contrast makes shadows look flatter and takes away detail, I don't know what to say. This isn't old cinema presented faithfully, it's modernity. It's just rougher on the eyes.

[Geoff D]

But Kate, you know that prints have stonkingly high gamma in order to maintain a semblance of black level while light is being blasted through them, yes? This means that shadow detail like that you’ve posted would be erased in a theatrical setting. (DCPs are 2.6 for similar reasons, to try and hold black at a decent level when projekted in a dark room. Lost count of the amount of times I could see far betterer shadow detail at home than in the cinema.)

Now I ain’t saying that everything should ape a theatrical print/DCP, I wouldn’t have thousands of blurays otherwise, but the point is that raising the gamma on x transfer isn’t a sop to modernity at all, if anything it’s like a trip back in time. And as transfers from film aren’t done from from prints, mostly, but from lower contrast pre-print elements then the colourists have a decision to make: preserve the newly unearthed lowlights with a lower gamma, making it look less contrasty, or crank the gamma to more like what was intended which is gonna knock out shadow detail.

We might be so used to low-con transfers that seeing something else comes as a shock. We can only like what we like and it’s something that annoys you, fair enough, even I questioned the big jump in contrast between the Arrow and Kino transfers of The Apartment despite them both being SDR as the discrepancy is huge (hell, maybe the Kino is one of nissling’s 2.6 transfers in action?). But my point is that perhaps it’s not as modern and newfangled as you think.

[nissling]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

For DCP, yes. 2.6 is fine. It’s what it’s meant to be. But you seem to be saying that home releases are mastered that way and that’s literally the first I’ve heard of that anywhere. You can clearly prefer what you like but fookin hell, that’s way too dark in the blacks for me.

Many UK releases do however have a clear shift in EOTF compared to the American counterpart, making them look brighter. M is perhaps the most obvious example. Showing the Criterion in 2.4 and MoC in 2.6 makes them almost indistinguishable if the peak white is still the same.

I had some spare time so let's just compare with some caps I borrowed from Caps-A-Holic.

[Show spoiler]Criterion - No changes made


MoC - No changes made


Criterion - 2.4 to 2.6 (look very similar to MoC)


MoC - 2.6 to 2.4 (look slightly brighter than untouched Criterion)


MoC - 2.6 to 2.2 (look slightly darker than untouched Criterion)

I will say however that this phenomenon has become less frequent over the past years and today you will more likely find similarities in these regards rather then differences when doing comparisons. As for calibration 2.4 is more often than not the better option. Very few displays, especially among consumer TVs, can display 2.6 properly without losing shadow detail and 2.4 is easier to get right in most home enviroments too. But if, only if, all things allign perfectly I do prefer 2.6 in the long run. In my grading suite however I always aim for 2.4 of course.

As for The Apartment by Kino, I have not had any involvement in the restoration nor the release overall. But when viewed in 2.6 with a 100 nits peak brightness I could not notice any lack in shadow detail nor boosted contrast. It all looked perfectly fine to me, tho it seems like a disc that would look great on almost any setup.

[Geoff D]

We've noticed a gamma shift for years, Kino were/are notorious for it on their releases (their discs typically looking lighter than a European counterpart, the inverse of what you're claiming is the norm) and I *think* David Mackenzie said that several earlier titles he did for Arrow had this brighter shift, but he said it was due to the mastering software and not some deliberate grading decision. I just don't see any evidence that 2.6 is a thing for home mastering and even though I only watch stuff in a darkened room 2.6 would be ridiculous.