AMC's "The Walking Dead" Discussion (2010-2022)

[KilloWertz]

Originally Posted by Lacit170

Welcome to television

You must be watching the wrong shows then.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

Haven't nor will I disagree with potential charges.

However, what happens to the prosecutions case when the victim takes the stand as says, he punched me in the face and left. Neither of us heard any sirens, there was no struggle, and I didn't yell out for help. He could of killed me 10 times in 10 different ways, but chose to punch me and walk out.

Did he see a gun? Did he feel his life was threatened?

[Grumpz]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Did he see a gun? Did he feel his life was threatened?

He does not see a gun in the scenario, as the hitman has decided to not proceed with the hit. Surprises the victim, punches them and leaves.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

As I said, my wife works at a Canadian law firm, I've been running this by her, and she's been discussing it at work. US cases make no difference to my stance, as we all know Canadian laws are different than US laws.

But I would like to thank you for pointing out that in the US, anyone who breaks into a home can be charged with attempted murder. I guess every home invasion ends with someone in prison for that same crime, and car jacking as well?

I also find it interesting that a victims own account of what happened, with the witness saying he punched me in the face, has no bearing on the situation.

All quite interesting.

I also don't defend Shane, he was wrong. But It's clear to me that what he did is a lot different than beating the crap out of Laurie, only to have her escape after Shane being kicked in the balls, or someone saving her.

If that's what you take from my posts, then there is no reason for you and me to continue our discussion. You absolutely refuse to listen and analyze, and I've clearly failed at trying to help you. I'll simply once again suggest you review the applicable law re attempt and the defense of abandonment. Clearly you haven't.

[Grumpz]

Originally Posted by Chordata

If that's what you take from my posts, then there is no reason for you and me to continue our discussion. You absolutely refuse to listen and analyze, and I've clearly failed at trying to help you. I'll simply once again suggest you review the applicable law re attempt and the defense of abandonment. Clearly you haven't.

Yes I'm reading an analyzing, and what your telling me is, in the US, if someone starts off with the intention of committing a murder, then decides to not proceed with the murder, they can still be charged with attempted murder.

That's what happened in my scenario, and you said it's still attempted murder.

Sorry, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm I don't do lawyer speak, however I'm being told in Canada, you can actually change your mind, and that a punch to the face isn't deemed attempted murder.

[Idealsupra]

You know with all this talk about Shanes "survival skills". Can someone point out to me what those skills are? There have been multiple times where he would have been screwed and probably dead if not for someone else being there to help him. On top of that, the only "survival skill" I have seen from him, is sacrificing another human being to save himself. What happens when he runs out of sacrificial lambs?

He can shoot a gun. Outside of that he has no survival skills whatsoever.

[Idealsupra]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

Yes I'm reading an analyzing, and what your telling me is, in the US, if someone starts off with the intention of committing a murder, then decides to not proceed with the murder, they can still be charged with attempted murder.

That's what happened in my scenario, and you said it's still attempted murder.

Sorry, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm I don't do lawyer speak, however I'm being told in Canada, you can actually change your mind, and that a punch to the face isn't deemed attempted murder.

Canadian and US legal systems are vastly different. Theres really no point to arguing over it because of that fact.

[Idealsupra]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

As I said, my wife works at a Canadian law firm, I've been running this by her, and she's been discussing it at work. US cases make no difference to my stance, as we all know Canadian laws are different than US laws.

But I would like to thank you for pointing out that in the US, anyone who breaks into a home can be charged with attempted murder. I guess every home invasion ends with someone in prison for that same crime, and car jacking as well?

I also find it interesting that a victims own account of what happened, with the witness saying he punched me in the face, has no bearing on the situation.

All quite interesting.

I also don't defend Shane, he was wrong. But It's clear to me that what he did is a lot different than beating the crap out of Laurie, only to have her escape after Shane being kicked in the balls, or someone saving her.

Funny you bring the bolded up. In FL, you have the right to defend yourself and your property by any means necessary. Meaning if someone breaks into my house I dont have to hesitate for a second to put a bullet between his eyes. If someone tries to carjack me, same exact thing.

In fact, its to the point now where if two people break into my house. I kill one of them and the other runs away and gets caught later. The other one that ran away and got caught will be charged with murder.

Gotta love it.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Idealsupra

You know with all this talk about Shanes "survival skills". Can someone point out to me what those skills are? There have been multiple times where he would have been screwed and probably dead if not for someone else being there to help him. On top of that, the only "survival skill" I have seen from him, is sacrificing another human being to save himself. What happens when he runs out of sacrificial lambs?

He can shoot a gun. Outside of that he has no survival skills whatsoever.

Besides otis saving him, name a few other.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

Yes I'm reading an analyzing, and what your telling me is, in the US, if someone starts off with the intention of committing a murder, then decides to not proceed with the murder, they can still be charged with attempted murder.

That's what happened in my scenario, and you said it's still attempted murder.

Sorry, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm I don't do lawyer speak, however I'm being told in Canada, you can actually change your mind, and that a punch to the face isn't deemed attempted murder.

Yes, that's it! You can abandon your attemp and use that as a defense but not if you only abandon to evade/avoid getting caught or to come back and try again later. There's literally a case using your fact pattern in Georgia - and dude's attempt conviction was upheld on appeal. What I did not ever say is that you can break in with intent to murder, leave, and get charged with attempted arson or grand theft auto or whatever. Not sure where you got that. It's all about mens rea.

Off topic ( yet on topic) Shane is on Conan tonight for those interested!

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Idealsupra

Funny you bring the bolded up. In FL, you have the right to defend yourself and your property by any means necessary. Meaning if someone breaks into my house I dont have to hesitate for a second to put a bullet between his eyes. If someone tries to carjack me, same exact thing.

In fact, its to the point now where if two people break into my house. I kill one of them and the other runs away and gets caught later. The other one that ran away and got caught will be charged with murder.

Gotta love it.

Yep- its like that in most US states - if someone dies during your commission of a felony, you can be charged with murder --- including if it's your accomplice. Moral of the story: don't commit (or attempt to commit) felonies.

[HDMe]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

Yes I'm reading an analyzing, and what your telling me is, in the US, if someone starts off with the intention of committing a murder, then decides to not proceed with the murder, they can still be charged with attempted murder.

That's what happened in my scenario, and you said it's still attempted murder.

Sorry, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm I don't do lawyer speak, however I'm being told in Canada, you can actually change your mind, and that a punch to the face isn't deemed attempted murder.

I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express, but...

Say I go into a bank wearing a mask and say "I'm here to rob you"... then before anyone gives me any money, I say "you know, nevermind, I won't rob you after all"...

Do you really think I won't still be arrested for attempted bank robbery?

Same thing at an airport... Go to any airport and say "I am going to hijack a plane"... then when it looks like someone called security, say "nevermind, I didn't really mean that"... and see if you don't still get hauled off by security and arrested.

So, yeah... Shane "changed his mind" but he changed his mind when Lori resisted... when she said "no" several times, scratched him, and pushed him away... then he "changed his mind" and decided not to force himself on her. That seems like the very definition of "attempted rape" to me.

[Grumpz]

Originally Posted by Chordata

Yes, that's it! You can abandon your attemp and use that as a defense but not if you only abandon to evade/avoid getting caught or to come back and try again later. There's literally a case using your fact pattern in Georgia - and dude's attempt conviction was upheld on appeal. What I did not ever say is that you can break in with intent to murder, leave, and get charged with attempted arson or grand theft auto or whatever. Not sure where you got that. It's all about mens rea.

Off topic ( yet on topic) Shane is on Conan tonight for those interested!

To be clear, my scenario was as simple as someone who intended to kill, who changed their mind, and punched someone instead.

They didn't abandon mid attempt...they never tried, and the victim knows this to be true.

[Grumpz]

Originally Posted by HDMe

I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express, but...

Say I go into a bank wearing a mask and say "I'm here to rob you"... then before anyone gives me any money, I say "you know, nevermind, I won't rob you after all"...

Do you really think I won't still be arrested for attempted bank robbery?

Same thing at an airport... Go to any airport and say "I am going to hijack a plane"... then when it looks like someone called security, say "nevermind, I didn't really mean that"... and see if you don't still get hauled off by security and arrested.

So, yeah... Shane "changed his mind" but he changed his mind when Lori resisted... when she said "no" several times, scratched him, and pushed him away... then he "changed his mind" and decided not to force himself on her. That seems like the very definition of "attempted rape" to me.

In these two situations, people would believe the assailant. I know I would...so sure they likely can't just change their mind, they've come out let their intentions be known.

Tell me though, what happens if someone carries an undetectable item on a plane that is meant to blow it up. The person decides they don't want to blow up the plane, they get off and ask for security. At that point they explain what they have, and hand it over. Do you think they'd be charged with attempted bombing when they changed their mind on their own and had no intentions of ever bombing a plane? I'm sure they'll get charged with something, but It would it be?

Shane didn't walk into the room and say "I'm here to rape you", then beat the crap out of Laurie, rip all of her clothes off, then have a change of heart, nor did he get stopped by anyone.

Also in my scenario, the hitman never pulls his weapon, nor communicates with the victim that he's there to kill him. All that happens in the victim gets punched because our assailant doesn't want to kill the person, so he punches them in the face.

I get that victim can defend themselves, and in the house, the victim could of killed him, but that's not what happens in what I describe.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Grumpz

To be clear, my scenario was as simple as someone who intended to kill, who changed their mind, and punched someone instead.

They didn't abandon mid attempt...they never tried, and the victim knows this to be true.

I understand your fact pattern (and the airport one), but I feel like we're beating this to death because you refuse to understand there is actual law on that very same fact pattern. It's attempt in the United States and, specifically, Georgia. Attempt is: (1) the intent to commit a crime, and (2) taking a substantial step toward the commission of that crime. Those are the elements. A potential defense is abandonment. Abandonment is not available as a defense if you give up your effort to avoid getting caught or to come back and do it again later.

I can assure you that breaking into a home with the intent to commit murder is a "substantial step" toward the commission of the crime of murder and, thus, it's attempt. Similarly, packing a bomb, going through security, and boarding a plane with the intent to blow up the plane is a "substantial step" toward the commission of that crime. Attempt doesn't necessarily require firing a gun and missing, or setting the timer on the bomb to go off but something prevents it. It can, but it doesn't have to.

Both guys will absolutely be charged with attempt. Will they be convicted? Who knows, I'm not on the jury.

Again, there is actual law on this issue. Grumpz and Chordata won't change that. If you still refuse to accept that maybe -- just maybe -- you could be wrong since the law is against you, I think we're done.

[Elandyll]

I think we're done.

I think we've been done a while ago when several people proved that both by evidence and law there was a clear "Attempted Rape", and then Grumpz started his arguing about a hired assassin, which was when the discussion really jumped the shark imo.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

I think we've been done a while ago when several people proved that both by evidence and law there was a clear "Attempted Rape", and then Grumpz started his arguing about a hired assassin, which was when the discussion really jumped the shark imo.

On that note, I don't look forward to the day when this show jumps the shark. I can pinpoint the moment in most of my favorite shows -- Friends, Lost, The Office, How I Met Your Mother, etc. Hoping it doesn't happen here.

[Lacit170]

Originally Posted by Idealsupra

Funny you bring the bolded up. In FL, you have the right to defend yourself and your property by any means necessary. Meaning if someone breaks into my house I dont have to hesitate for a second to put a bullet between his eyes. If someone tries to carjack me, same exact thing.

In fact, its to the point now where if two people break into my house. I kill one of them and the other runs away and gets caught later. The other one that ran away and got caught will be charged with murder.

Gotta love it.

Do you know this info for fact? ive heard of cases, not sure where....that if someone breaks into your house...and you kill them and they are not a threat to your life....you go to jail for murder

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Lacit170

Do you know this info for fact? ive heard of cases, not sure where....that if someone breaks into your house...and you kill them and they are not a threat to your life....you go to jail for murder

It varies by state. In some states you have to be in imminent threat (in some states, your loved ones can qualify) in order to use deadly force. Florida law justifies the use of deadly force when you are trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm, or to to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Florida also has the "castle doctrine" exception to the duty to retreat. Under it, you don't have to retreat from your own home to avoid using deadly force against an assailant/intruder. You can shoot to kill.

Your state may (and likely does) vary.

[seeweda]

Originally Posted by HDMe

I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express, but...

Say I go into a bank wearing a mask and say "I'm here to rob you"... then before anyone gives me any money, I say "you know, nevermind, I won't rob you after all"...

Do you really think I won't still be arrested for attempted bank robbery?

Same thing at an airport... Go to any airport and say "I am going to hijack a plane"... then when it looks like someone called security, say "nevermind, I didn't really mean that"... and see if you don't still get hauled off by security and arrested.

So, yeah... Shane "changed his mind" but he changed his mind when Lori resisted... when she said "no" several times, scratched him, and pushed him away... then he "changed his mind" and decided not to force himself on her. That seems like the very definition of "attempted rape" to me.

You can't be charged with attempted anything in either of your situations at best they could charge with inciting a riot or making terroristic threats. If first offense might get you time served and a hefty fine at worst probably 6 to 12 months and a psych eval. You'd actually have to have a weapon on you or the actual means to go through with the act to get charged for attempted robbery or hijacking.