The Shining (1980)

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by GeoffOliver

I don’t think I would’ve nominated Shelley Duvall for an Oscar. She had a very unique look, sound, and presence that made her casting work, and I certainly can’t imagine the film without her, but her actual performance was pretty laughable. I can at least understand her Razzie nom (Kubrick not so much).

Totally disagree. Laughable? She was amazing. And apparently put through hell for the production.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

How could they know they hate horror movies if those are the only ones they saw?

That's common though. I don't need to see a lot of romance movies or westerns to know I'm not a huge fan of them (though there are exceptions).

[GeoffOliver]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Totally disagree. Laughable? She was amazing. And apparently put through hell for the production.

I dunno. I’ve always thought she was extremely over-the-top, chewing the scenery almost as much as Jack. I’ve always laughed at her performance, especially when she shrieks “How could you?! HOW COULD YOU?!!! You son of a *****!!!!!” with that voice of hers. It’s at least a very strange performance, but dammit, it works. All of her performances were like that. She’s a memorable actress not for her talent, but for her unique screen presence. Just my opinion.

[surfdude12]

Originally Posted by GeoffOliver

I dunno. I’ve always thought she was extremely over-the-top, chewing the scenery almost as much as Jack. I’ve always laughed at her performance, especially when she shrieks “How could you?! HOW COULD YOU?!!! You son of a *****!!!!!” with that voice of hers. It’s at least a very strange performance, but dammit, it works. All of her performances were like that. She’s a memorable actress not for her talent, but for her unique appearance and voice. Just my opinion.

She's perfect because she plays a perfect foil for Jack to mock

Jack: "You think MAYBE he should see a doctor?"

Jack: "When do you think MAYBE he should see a doctor?"

Wendy: "As soon as possible?"

Jack: "As soon as passssabbblleeee????"

[bobbyh64]

For fun I’m going to list all the Stephen King novels I’ve read.

It
The Shining
‘Salem’s Lot
Insomnia
The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger (both the original and updated versions)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower
Misery
Desperation
The Regulators
The Stand (uncut version)
Cell
The Eyes of the Dragon
Carrie
Rage
The Long Walk
Roadwork
The Running Man (these last four I read in one book called The Bachman Books).

Some of these I found a bit boring, but the one I had the toughest time getting through was The Stand. I know some people list it as their favorite, but I found it so slow and uninteresting and it literally took me ten years to read the whole thing (read other books in between). I’m currently reading The Wind through the Keyhole and after that I’ll read Christine. I also want to read It again since I liked it a lot and it’s been many years since I read it. I should also read The Shining again.

[English Patient]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

For fun I’m going to list all the Stephen King novels I’ve read.

It
The Shining
‘Salem’s Lot
Insomnia
The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger (both the original and updated versions)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower
Misery
Desperation
The Regulators
The Stand (uncut version)
Cell
The Eyes of the Dragon
Carrie
Rage
The Long Walk
Roadwork
The Running Man (these last four I read in one book called The Bachman Books).

Some of these I found a bit boring, but the one I had the toughest time getting through was The Stand. I know some people list it as their favorite, but I found it so slow and uninteresting and it literally took me ten years to read the whole thing (read other books in between). I’m currently reading The Wind through the Keyhole and after that I’ll read Christine. I also want to read It again since I liked it a lot and it’s been many years since I read it. I should also read The Shining again.

I hope you eventually read Pet Sematary - great horror novel, and not too long. I loved the Bachman Books - I think that volume is now out of print because of Rage (King didn't want that one in print any longer after a copy was found in the locker of a school shooter in the 90s).

[Todd Tomorrow]

I love Shelley Duvall her performance in 3 Women is one of my all time favourites. Wendy is underdeveloped in Kubrick’s The Shining, he didn’t give her much of a character, for much of the movie she’s just got to do bug-eyed panic. Kubrick frequently didn’t seem that interested in actors or the characters they played other than how they fit into his visual design. That remoteness is part of what makes his films intriguing, but it works against the horror mechanics of The Shining. I love the movie, but after Kubrick revolutionized science fiction it was expected that he would do so with horror and I don‘t think he did. There is much that is admirable about The Shining, but for me it doesn’t quite work as horror because I don’t really believe in the characters and the peril they are in, especially once Nicholson goes OTT and drags the film into comedy. Kubrick never makes Jack, Wendy and Danny believable as a family, not even a dysfunctional one.

[Bobbyjoe766]

Shelly Duvall was a fine casting choice that worked for the Kubrick version.

I couldn’t imagine an attractive blonde (of the book) replacing her.

[English Patient]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

I love Shelley Duvall her performance in 3 Women is one of my all time favourites. Wendy is underdeveloped in Kubrick’s The Shining, he didn’t give her much of a character, for much of the movie she’s just got to do bug-eyed panic. Kubrick frequently didn’t seem that interested in actors or the characters they played other than how they fit into his visual design. That remoteness is part of what makes his films intriguing, but it works against the horror mechanics of The Shining. I love the movie, but after Kubrick revolutionized science fiction it was expected that he would do so with horror and I don‘t think he did. There is much that is admirable about The Shining, but for me it doesn’t quite work as horror because I don’t really believe in the characters and the peril they are in, especially once Nicholson goes OTT and drags the film into comedy. Kubrick never makes Jack, Wendy and Danny believable as a family, not even a dysfunctional one.

There was an interview with co-screenwriter Diane Johnson who said that her script had a much stronger Wendy. It would be great if someone could unearth her original script to see what was cut out.

I liked what you said about the expectations that Kubrick would revolutionize horror the way he did sci-fi. Maybe on some technical level he did - the use of the Steadicam, the elaborate set design, etc. On a storytelling level, though, the movie isn't that revolutionary (and I don't consider this a flaw at all) - it's basically a familiar haunted house story, a lot like The Haunting. After the visceral experience of The Exorcist, it felt even somewhat restrained. Maybe that's why initial reviews and box office were kind of a letdown - people's expectations were way too high.

[Big-D]

And there's a sequel in the works :

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/new...to-kings-novel

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Some of these I found a bit boring, but the one I had the toughest time getting through was The Stand. I know some people list it as their favorite, but I found it so slow and uninteresting and it literally took me ten years to read the whole thing (read other books in between). I’m currently reading The Wind through the Keyhole and after that I’ll read Christine. I also want to read It again since I liked it a lot and it’s been many years since I read it. I should also read The Shining again.

Bob, the original released version was more concise. I like both versions, but if length is your issue - if you can find the original release - try to hunt that down.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Bob, the original released version was more concise. I like both versions, but if length is your issue - if you can find the original release - try to hunt that down.

Thanks Ern! It’s not so much the length that bothered me, just a large portion of the story/plot. Maybe I’ll check out the shorter version sometime.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by surfdude12

She's perfect because she plays a perfect foil for Jack to mock

Jack: "You think MAYBE he should see a doctor?"

Jack: "When do you think MAYBE he should see a doctor?"

Wendy: "As soon as possible?"

Jack: "As soon as passssabbblleeee????"

Kubrick told Jack to actually make fun of the way Shelly acted... to get under her skin. It worked brilliantly, though I feel sorry for what mental torture she was put through. It's like the guerilla filmmaking techniques used in Alien with Ridley Scott tormenting Veronica Cartwright because he wanted her to shriek believably on camera and it was so easy to get a reaction out of her by pushing her buttons. Or in Apocalypse Now where Coppola had Martin Sheen actually get drunk for the drunk scenes (in one he punched a mirror and actually bled... it wasn't staged, he was in a f'd up state) and have the cast drop acid when the characters were supposed to be high. These were real ways of eliciting true, raw emotions from an actor... not made-up responses that weren't authentic. Very big in the 60's and 70's because of a wave of cinema verite style. Now, it's kind of frowned upon.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Thanks Ern! It’s not so much the length that bothered me, just a large portion of the story/plot. Maybe I’ll check out the shorter version sometime.

I like the original release version of King's The Stand more than the "extended". If I had to recommend it to someone, I'd go for King's first published edition. I am not a fan of the third act climax in either version (don't hate it or anything, I like the book, both releases), and I won't spoil the ending, so I will now shut up.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by English Patient

How clever. I could do the same with a "Leave Kubrick Alone" meme, since some members get sooo emotional anytime anyone -...

I don't think you can and I don't think they really do. But stones and glass houses come to mind.

[English Patient]

Originally Posted by Martoto

I don't think you can and I don't think they really do. But stones and glass houses come to mind.

No, actually, I think I could.

The irony is that I'm not even a huge Stephen King fan. I've read maybe 15 of his novels and I didn't love every one. I agree with some of his criticisms of The Shining and disagree with others. But what I find annoying is that some members don't address the relative MERITS of his criticisms (all of which are based on things like characterization and story construction, NOT personal attacks) and just immediately start dissing King as a person, calling him inferior, a hack, whatever. Not exactly the most nuanced of discourse.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by English Patient

No, actually, I think I could.

I know you think that. I'm aware of that. I'm just telling you that you're wrong.

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Totally disagree. Laughable? She was amazing. And apparently put through hell for the production.

Originally Posted by GeoffOliver

I dunno. I’ve always thought she was extremely over-the-top, chewing the scenery almost as much as Jack. I’ve always laughed at her performance, especially when she shrieks “How could you?! HOW COULD YOU?!!! You son of a *****!!!!!” with that voice of hers. It’s at least a very strange performance, but dammit, it works.

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

There is much that is admirable about The Shining, but for me it doesn’t quite work as horror because I don’t really believe in the characters and the peril they are in, especially once Nicholson goes OTT and drags the film into comedy. Kubrick never makes Jack, Wendy and Danny believable as a family, not even a dysfunctional one.

I think what Todd says here is very relevant and one of the reasons why people may have issues with the performances. It seems very improbable that a fiercely intelligent person like Jack would marry a simpering doormat like Wendy (unless he got her knocked up and her redneck dad forced a shotgun wedding). The idea of them being a family unit is not conveyed, and the horror of the film is not the emotional horror of a family coming apart, it's more a clever sleight-of-hand magic show (undeniably brilliant in itself). Contrast this with The Babadook where a lot of the horror comes from a mother-son relationship getting corrupted. The scenes where the mother spurns the needy child are genuinely stomach-churning.

[JimDiGriz]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I think what Todd says here is very relevant and one of the reasons why people may have issues with the performances. It seems very improbable that a fiercely intelligent person like Jack would marry a simpering doormat like Wendy (unless he got her knocked up and her redneck dad forced a shotgun wedding). The idea of them being a family unit is not conveyed, and the horror of the film is not the emotional horror of a family coming apart, it's more a clever sleight-of-hand magic show (undeniably brilliant in itself). Contrast this with The Babadook where a lot of the horror comes from a mother-son relationship getting corrupted. The scenes where the mother spurns the needy child are genuinely stomach-churning.

Contrast the best horror film of all time with...The Babadook?! You've lost me there. The Babadook is very overrated in my opinion.

[TravelNurseRN]

Originally Posted by Big-D

And there's a sequel in the works :

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/new...to-kings-novel

Well, crud, that means we'll have to wait closer to its release to get a 4k UHD of The Shining.