Underwhelming sound from Onkyo 606+polk system

[prerich]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

I'd be leary of those post you have links on. those are two post from the same person claiming that he "spoke" to a polk representative. the links i put up were from post site on the RTi 10 and from Crutchfield's site on those speakers. can you imagine the potential for lawsuits against polk for damages to speakers and receivers because people didn't know they were "really" 4 ohm speakers? that would have killed many receiver because most of them "can't" handle 4 ohm speakers and they almost all will tell you NOT to use 4 ohm speakers because they can't handle it.

I think the bottom line is read the literature that comes with the receiver and see if it says it supports 4 ohm speakers or not. go with what the literature says. the same would be true for speakers. RTi 10's have been on the market for years and this is the first i've ever heard of this "4 ohm" issue. short of saying it's not true, i'll just say it's incredibly far fetched. Oh and the other thing of "take the jumper off and that will solve the problem until you can get an amp" what the hell kinda advise is that? yeah, just power the high freq side til you get an amp then you can put the jumper back on and you'll be fine. that advise is what killed this for that so called revolation by the poster of that link you provided.

i feel secure that based on what the polk site put out on the spec's for the RTi 10 speakers and they are listed as 8ohms then i'm satisfied more so than that persons post. I think if this were true polk would have done a recall or mass notification to all registered users and on their site about this. I think we can put this to bed after your reply should you or anyone choose to.

Solarrdadd, you're using very decent power (Emotiva power amp). You could drive a 2 ohm load stable just like I can, however the issue of the impedence dips repesented by some speakers is a real fact. Your setup wouldn't flinch at this - but an Onkyo 606 - running 7.1? Oh yeah, I think it would flinch. I don't believe the solution is taking off the jumpers. I think the OP should add power and look at his room positioning. It takes power to properly pressurize a room of that size (or extremely efficient speakers). I have 5 power amps that give me 11 possible channels of power (at apx 200 watts per channel - even more on some of the bridged ones). My room is roughly 15 ft wide by 19 ft long and 8 ft high, but I have openings to another room. The OP can't fill that entire space with sound, not with his current setup. That's why I'm suggesting reconfiguring the room and/or add power.
P.S. This comment is not ment to be argumentative. I'm just expressing my past experiences with audio - the OP needs dynamics - and the Onkyo can't supply it in that room - as currently configured, and I would go as far to say - with that speaker setup, its hungry.

[prerich]

Here's a good article from Polk Audio itself!!!!
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb0.../impedence.htm

Even they know the issue of real world impedance.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

Thanks everyone for the comments/suggestions

Just want to make it clear that i love my equipment, this thread in not to bash onkyo or polk

Main reason i brought this up: I always felt that something was lacking with my system despite my constant upgrading. A couple of weeks back i went to my uncles house and heard his HT - a 5.1 klipsh/cambrige audio setup. i was blown away. so full and rich. Im trying to keep in mind that his area was a about 15 x10 and he was using a 1500 dollar cambridge receiver. Anyways last night i got home an decided to finish up my cockpit so i put in my 5.1 monsoon computer surround sound and i was like wtf, this sounds really good. The bass was a little messy but the definition was amazing.
(I have to mount the rear surrounds still. you can see them on the floor)


these two sessions are what got me looking into my system. wify was out and Transformer 2 went in. i ended up increasing levels on my front stage and that seemed to help. also cranked my sub and it sounded nice.. but not as nice as my uncle cam/klipsh system.

He could properly pressurize his room - that's why its so full and rich (and cambidge audio - with very efficent Klipsch speakers doesn't hurt either)!

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by prerich

Solarrdadd, you're using very decent power (Emotiva power amp). You could drive a 2 ohm load stable just like I can, however the issue of the impedence dips repesented by some speakers is a real fact. Your setup wouldn't flinch at this - but an Onkyo 606 - running 7.1? Oh yeah, I think it would flinch. I don't believe the solution is taking off the jumpers. I think the OP should add power and look at his room positioning. It takes power to properly pressurize a room of that size (or extremely efficient speakers). I have 5 power amps that give me 11 possible channels of power (at apx 200 watts per channel - even more on some of the bridged ones). My room is roughly 15 ft wide by 19 ft long and 8 ft high, but I have openings to another room. The OP can't fill that entire space with sound, not with his current setup. That's why I'm suggesting reconfiguring the room and/or add power.
P.S. This comment is not ment to be argumentative. I'm just expressing my past experiences with audio - the OP needs dynamics - and the Onkyo can't supply it in that room - as currently configured, and I would go as far to say - with that speaker setup, its hungry.

ok, i agree with some of what you had to say. however, the poster was not talking about impedence dips he was talking about the actual impedence rating of the speakers not actually being what they are listed at; which is 8 ohms. do you and he think polk is lying about the rating of these speakers, I do not. I don't think it was an oversite on their part either. they state they are 8 ohms and i will take them at their word. also long before i bought my emo amp i powered all the speakers i have with the Onkyo 805 receiver i had. do the speakers sound and perform better with the amp, yes and of course. would i recommend to anyone to connect 4 ohm speakers to a receiver not rated to handle them, no i would not. until a statement comes from polk or from a class action suit against polk about falsly advertising their product (impedence ratings of the RTi 10 speakers) I/we must believe that they are what polk has them advertised at.

I also believe folks need to do more research on equipment, get more knowledgable about not only the equipment but the subject matter and how they intend to use said equipment. this way they will make much better choices on what they end up with the first time. i see that as a problem more than anything; folks buying stuff then saying it's not working right or "like they thought it would or should". those polks sounded good on my receiver but they sound great on my amp.

i do agree that if he want's more dynamic sound from those polks he will need a dedicated power amp, i don't believe that anything in the spec's about the speakers is wrong or mis-represented by Polk Audio. Also, that receiver he has will drive those speakers well, perhaps, just not as well as it would be liked in his space which goes back to that "homework" thing i mentioned earlier. that is the one thing i have learned not just about my HT hobby but about my profession, you've got to learn and keep learning and researching things to keep up and learn more all the time. he should do said homework to get an amp that will give him the proper power for those speakers in the given space he needs to produce the level and quality of sound he wants from them.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by prerich

Here's a good article from Polk Audio itself!!!!
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb0.../impedence.htm

Even they know the issue of real world impedance.

I agree with everything that your link had to say. however you are missing the issue of my reply to the OP, he stated that a poster told him that he heard from somone from polk that the RTi10 speakers were really 4 ohm and not 8 ohm as they are listed. so everything you keep saying is not about the issue he brought up that i had a problem with. now, the information you have brought up is good information granted, it's just not addressing the issue that was brought up. are you with me?

[prerich]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

ok, i agree with some of what you had to say. however, the poster was not talking about impedence dips he was talking about the actual impedence rating of the speakers not actually being what they are listed at; which is 8 ohms. do you and he think polk is lying about the rating of these speakers, I do not. I don't think it was an oversite on their part either. they state they are 8 ohms and i will take them at their word. also long before i bought my emo amp i powered all the speakers i have with the Onkyo 805 receiver i had. do the speakers sound and perform better with the amp, yes and of course. would i recommend to anyone to connect 4 ohm speakers to a receiver not rated to handle them, no i would not. until a statement comes from polk or from a class action suit against polk about falsly advertising their product (impedence ratings of the RTi 10 speakers) I/we must believe that they are what polk has them advertised at.

I also believe folks need to do more research on equipment, get more knowledgable about not only the equipment but the subject matter and how they intend to use said equipment. this way they will make much better choices on what they end up with the first time. i see that as a problem more than anything; folks buying stuff then saying it's not working right or "like they thought it would or should". those polks sounded good on my receiver but they sound great on my amp.

i do agree that if he want's more dynamic sound from those polks he will need a dedicated power amp, i don't believe that anything in the spec's about the speakers is wrong or mis-represented by Polk Audio. Also, that receiver he has will drive those speakers well, perhaps, just not as well as it would be liked in his space which goes back to that "homework" thing i mentioned earlier. that is the one thing i have learned not just about my HT hobby but about my profession, you've got to learn and keep learning and researching things to keep up and learn more all the time. he should do said homework to get an amp that will give him the proper power for those speakers in the given space he needs to produce the level and quality of sound he wants from them.

Agreed. I don't think Polk lied at all, they said that they were compatible with 8 ohm outputs - and they are, but what is the real world impedance? Polk even coined this phrase in the other link I posted. When listening to taxing HT stuff at loud levels - you better be able to bring it. I learned this very early when received CEDIA training. You are right when you state that people should really do their homework before they buy

[prerich]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

I agree with everything that your link had to say. however you are missing the issue of my reply to the OP, he stated that a poster told him that he heard from somone from polk that the RTi10 speakers were really 4 ohm and not 8 ohm as they are listed. so everything you keep saying is not about the issue he brought up that i had a problem with. now, the information you have brought up is good information granted, it's just not addressing the issue that was brought up. are you with me?

I'm with ya doc!!! 10-4.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by prerich

I'm with ya doc!!! 10-4.

If you stop over in VA, let me know, I'll buy the first round, top shelf!

[prerich]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

If you stop over in VA, let me know, I'll buy the first round, top shelf!

Drinking days are over - A hot tea would do fine ! Hey you may have been to one of my old stompin' grounds - Domes Audio Video Enviornments in Chesapeake. If you haven't been there - you owe it to yourself to go!!!! Tell the owner Lee, that David from Florida sent you!

[Cpus456]

Hear are some possible solutions - more power or smaller room
Option 1

Harman Kardon AVR 254 7.1-Channel A/V to power the 2x surround and 2x rears
http://www.electronicsforless.ca/aud...1-3a-1270.html
and this
Emotiva XPA3
http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm
to power my center and fronts

Option 2
Harman Kardon AVR 254 7.1-Channel A/V to power surrond backs
and
EMotiva upa 5 to pow center/front/surrounds
http://emotiva.com/upa5.shtm

The reason im looking at The harman is becaue i heard they bring down polk brightness

or am i just better with

UMC-1
http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm
and
Upa 7
http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm

Option 4
Build a wall and try to close up the viewing area as much as possible
some think crazyblus got her in the back - maybe i can put it on wheels are something so i can pull it out for movie night???
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/37161_full.jpg

[solarrdadd]

you don't have an issue with too much space. you have an issue with how best to fill that space with good quality sound. it can be done, that's why i said homework. for me it's not enough to just ask everyone about some stuff and what do they think. i do all my research first, over & over again. i read what the critics have to say and what the regular owners have to say. all of this is relative to what i need/want (which can be two different things!) then i may or may not put my narrowed down selections on the forum to see what folks think after i have done all of this. you know how many times on this and other sites people come back and get on folks because they listened to what they said and were unhappy that they didn't get the results that they were told. most of those folks really didn't understand the equipment and their need for that equipment and they didn't do research on their own.

don't get me wrong, asking for opinions and even advise is great but make sure you read and research stuff on your own and don't just depend on us.

Oh, as far as the "bringing down polks brightness" i want a pre/out to be as neutral as possible with the audio that passes through it. unless i want a particular EQ setting for effects or something like that and also how does it (the receiver you mentioned) know you have polks and not Paradigm or B&W speakers?

[CallingMrBenzo]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

My problem seems to stem from a lack of power.

I think the addition on my 2xRTI10's, then the CSI6 have put a strain on my Onkyo.

The unit pushes 90 watt per channel and every channel is being used.

yesterday i was reading that my rti10 are actually 4 ohms [with the straps on(read in a polk audio forum and was confirmed by on tech at polk)

Also my CSI6 is running at 6ohms.

This added stress must be the reason my sound seems err, umm Empty! if thats a way to describe it.

The fullness is not there!

now the solution might me to add an amp to power my 3 front units - but the problem lies in the AMP - no pre outs to an external amp
Should have opped for the 707.

I also read the the emptyness might be due to the fact that im using onlyo with my polks - the onks seem to have that effect on them

Heres some info about my setup

Placement:
Open concept condo
Room is about 25x20
Concrete walls
My Front Left and surrond right are up against a wall (see pictures in gallery)
the backs of my front speakers are sitting pretty much against a wall
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21951_full.jpg
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21955_full.jpg

what should i do

go the cheap route and remove the straps on my RTI10, disabling one of the 8 inch woofer so they can run in 8 olms and disconnect my two rear speaker and go 5.1?

or

Sell my onkyo and grab a pioneer elite VSX-21TXH and a 3 channel amp to power my front stage.?

or

Emotiva UMC-1 and UPa - 7

Recommendations?

not to sound mean but you picked a terrible receiver to pair with those speakers, i love the 606 and its great when paired with the right equipment.

if there is one thing i have learned from the polk forums your speakers LOOOVE power and in general most people would have separate amplification for those speakers, esp since they are 4 ohm ...

go over to the polk forums and see what people ten to use with your power hungry set up, since the 606 doesnt have pre outs you can sell it or do what ill do in the future and move it to ya bedroom when you decide to replace it!

[Cpus456]

Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo

not to sound mean but you picked a terrible receiver to pair with those speakers, i love the 606 and its great when paired with the right equipment:

had the receiver before i got the speakers

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

Here are some quick pics on what my layout looks like
you can see the my rears and rear surronds have been raised
(yes i wrapped them with lights :P)


here you can see a 3 inch gap for the from the speaker to the wall, but the port on the bottom is basically touching

Location, location, location. The rule applies equally as well to speaker placement and room setup as it does to real estate. I hate to say it, but the sound in your room would probably improve substantially with proper layout of speakers and furniture, including alignment and calibration.

I have no doubt that a bit of rearranging would do wonders for your sound.

[Cpus456]

took some advise here and did some research

#1 - looked at my speakers and noticed that all my rears and the center had power going the the bottom posts. my fronts had them on the top. swithced to the to top and my speakers came to life??!!!!! I dont know why, but im not going to argure it.

#2 - took the off the straps that came with my speakers and replace them with some speaker wire

similar to this but i used shorter wire
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...xx_80/wire.jpg

#3 and i dont know what results this is going to yeild
Bought a Pioneer VTX9130 thx - Canadian version of the Elite VSX-03TXH with thx certification
it has 20 more watts of extra power per channel, with the all important 7.1 pre outs
best part about it is that i paid $499 cdn for it. If it sounds goods and i can sell my Onyko

[blu_world]

interesting wire set-up in #2,i wonder how they think that could improve sound..lol


just for fun i guess?.

[Cpus456]

well i hooked up my Pioneer VTX9130 and noticed a BIG difference

my highs have calmed down and its alot richer sound

To be honest, it feels like i have a new system.
The processing is alot better, definition better as well
my rear surrounds feel like they finally are there and being utilized.
Overall more immersive.

There is still small amount of thud when playing music in stereo i think the amps i purchased will help out,

Carver TFM15cb (100x2) going to bridge this for my center speaker
Carver TFM55 (380x2) for my fronts

Going to set these up in a few days and update

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

well i hooked up my Pioneer VTX9130 and noticed a BIG difference

my highs have calmed down and its alot richer sound

To be honest, it feels like i have a new system.
The processing is alot better, definition better as well
my rear surrounds feel like they finally are there and being utilized.
Overall more immersive.

There is still small amount of thud when playing music in stereo i think the amps i purchased will help out,

Carver TFM15cb (100x2) going to bridge this for my center speaker
Carver TFM55 (380x2) for my fronts

Going to set these up in a few days and update

The amps are vintage classics - but very good and respectable!!!! Nice selection