Underwhelming sound from Onkyo 606+polk system

[Cpus456]

My problem seems to stem from a lack of power.

I think the addition on my 2xRTI10's, then the CSI6 have put a strain on my Onkyo.

The unit pushes 90 watt per channel and every channel is being used.

yesterday i was reading that my rti10 are actually 4 ohms [with the straps on(read in a polk audio forum and was confirmed by on tech at polk)

Also my CSI6 is running at 6ohms.

This added stress must be the reason my sound seems err, umm Empty! if thats a way to describe it.

The fullness is not there!

now the solution might me to add an amp to power my 3 front units - but the problem lies in the AMP - no pre outs to an external amp
Should have opped for the 707.

I also read the the emptyness might be due to the fact that im using onlyo with my polks - the onks seem to have that effect on them

Heres some info about my setup

Placement:
Open concept condo
Room is about 25x20
Concrete walls
My Front Left and surrond right are up against a wall (see pictures in gallery)
the backs of my front speakers are sitting pretty much against a wall
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21951_full.jpg
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21955_full.jpg

what should i do

go the cheap route and remove the straps on my RTI10, disabling one of the 8 inch woofer so they can run in 8 olms and disconnect my two rear speaker and go 5.1?

or

Sell my onkyo and grab a pioneer elite VSX-21TXH and a 3 channel amp to power my front stage.?

or

Emotiva UMC-1 and UPa - 7

Recommendations?

[emoxley]

I guess the 606 doesn't have the option to set it up for 4 ohms, in the initial setup process? My 805 does, but I'm not sure of the other models of Onkyos. My front three speakers are all 4 ohm ea., so I set the receiver up for 4 ohms. I have no problems with them. personally.

If you have access to a receiver with pre-outs, you can hook your 606 up to the pre-outs, to power the rear speakers, and let the other receiver power the fronts. That might work. But driving 4 ohm speakers, with an 8 ohm receiver, can make it go into "Protect" mode and shut down. Especially if listening at louder volumes.

You may have to get some 8 ohm speakers, or a receiver that can handle 4 ohm loads. The center speaker being 6 ohms shouldn't be a problem. +/- 2 ohms is no big deal, but +/- 4 ohms of difference is another story.
Good luck!

[Dase]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

My problem seems to stem from a lack of power.

I think the addition on my 2xRTI10's, then the CSI6 have put a strain on my Onkyo.

The unit pushes 90 watt per channel and every channel is being used.

yesterday i was reading that my rti10 are actually 4 ohms [with the straps on(read in a polk audio forum and was confirmed by on tech at polk)

Also my CSI6 is running at 6ohms.

This added stress must be the reason my sound seems err, umm Empty! if thats a way to describe it.

The fullness is not there!

now the solution might me to add an amp to power my 3 front units - but the problem lies in the AMP - no pre outs to an external amp
Should have opped for the 707.

I also read the the emptyness might be due to the fact that im using onlyo with my polks - the onks seem to have that effect on them

Heres some info about my setup

Placement:
Open concept condo
Room is about 25x20
Concrete walls
My Front Left and surrond right are up against a wall (see pictures in gallery)
the backs of my front speakers are sitting pretty much against a wall
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21951_full.jpg
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21955_full.jpg

what should i do

go the cheap route and remove the straps on my RTI10, disabling one of the 8 inch woofer so they can run in 8 olms and disconnect my two rear speaker and go 5.1?

or

Sell my onkyo and grab a pioneer elite VSX-21TXH and a 3 channel amp to power my front stage.?

or

Emotiva UMC-1 and UPa - 7

Recommendations?

Originally Posted by Cpus456

My problem seems to stem from a lack of power.

yesterday i was reading that my rti10 are actually 4 ohms [with the straps on(read in a polk audio forum and was confirmed by on tech at polk)

Also my CSI6 is running at 6ohms.

go the cheap route and remove the straps on my RTI10, disabling one of the 8 inch woofer so they can run in 8 olms and disconnect my two rear speaker and go 5.1?

Recommendations?

Strange because on the product page on polk's website they have the towers and center listed at 8ohms:

towers

center

Also, the RTi 10's have 7" woofers.

You could just unhook your rears and go 5.1 and see if that improves anything. Otherwise the UMC-1 and amp are the best suggestion of the three you mentioned. Good luck!

[Driver_King]

Mess with the equalization and tone control settings on your receiver. That way you can set the bass and treble to your likings.

[JBL4645]

Low sensitivity, loudspeakers is another key factor since they need a lot of power to reach a reasonable SPL db at the listening area say 85db.

So if, you have less power and low sensitivity speakers in large room, you will be asking far too much from a less powered amplifier and you will run into some difficulties.

Does the Onkyo support pre-outputs so that you can use amps that can supply the right measure of power, also I’d use higher sensitivity over 90db somewhere near to 95 or best high efficiency 100db +, at least you want have issues in that large room.

Looking at the front image I’d say a lot of the sound in the lows is being wasted and the room ether needs some stud walling knocked that will make a difference.

I bet the if you measured the LCR front you’d see a very uneven frequency response with bass been sent maybe near that front door?

Oh, yes, yes, that’s better now I can see the speakers left/right yeah, that is not a healthy set-up.

The left is near to two wall boundaries the right is partly near wall and the rest is open space!

I have similar issue in my room and can hear the difference when running step by sine wave test. I loss a tone within 80Hz on the left due to chimney beast that lays on the left side of the room mid-way. I need to knock in stud wall at the far end to short on the missing 80Hz which is many db down.

Anyway I’m just thinking out loud mate, what is the sensitivity of the Onkyo speakers?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by -dase-

Strange because on the product page on polk's website they have the towers and center listed at 8ohms:

towers

center

Also, the RTi 10's have 7" woofers.

You could just unhook your rears and go 5.1 and see if that improves anything. Otherwise the UMC-1 and amp are the best suggestion of the three you mentioned. Good luck!

+1 on this suggestion.....also, the 606 is not powering the speakers with 90 watts each when using all 5 or 7, that I can assure you. Onkyo usually states their specs for 2 channels. With 5 channels, I bet it is probably around 50 watts and even less with all 7 driven. With the RTi's and the CSi center, they'll need much more power to really open up and sing!

[JBL4645]

Yeah just looked at the second picture, sorry I just got home its cold and I’m cranky.

For surround to work surround speakers have to be located on the walls so that your not climbing over them! I’d start with making the room simple straightforward shape because of lot of the lows will be wasted up front.

The whole room is all cockeyed! I take you like the view from the window or you can say (bugger the view, I see enough of the outside when I go outside). You can block the window up and its nobodies business! You can use think MDF then screw attach the back speakers to surface high up so it beams the sound down at you!

I’d use a few more the same smaller speakers for surround they will work in that room.

You need to get look like one shape rather than all those twisted turns. Yes I know it cost money but you want sort it any other way.

Can you please take a few more pictures around the flat so I can get better perspective.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Driver_King

Mess with the equalization and tone control settings on your receiver. That way you can set the bass and treble to your likings.

But be careful because if you boost/EQ too high you’ll reduce headroom of the amp! And you’re run into clipping.

[Pycroft]

I agree with the poster that says the Onkyo is NOT giving 90 watts per channel. THat is WAY over stated. Everyone looks at wpc, and assumes it's good. I had a 606, and felt it was underpowered, and I was powering 8 ohm speakers that had a sensitivity of 94. That receiver, is frankly, not powerful enough for the speakers. I would get an AVR with preouts, and a 2/3/or 5 channel amp to accompany it. You will hear a TREMENDOUS difference.

Pycroft

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Pycroft

I agree with the poster that says the Onkyo is NOT giving 90 watts per channel. THat is WAY over stated. Everyone looks at wpc, and assumes it's good. I had a 606, and felt it was underpowered, and I was powering 8 ohm speakers that had a sensitivity of 94. That receiver, is frankly, not powerful enough for the speakers. I would get an AVR with preouts, and a 2/3/or 5 channel amp to accompany it. You will hear a TREMENDOUS difference.

Pycroft

if you are using speakers at 8ohms with a sensitivity of 94 they are very high efficiency speakers and can and should give a hugh amount of sound with very little power. your power hog speakers dip down below 89. Klipsch speakers are an example of high efficiency speakers with a couple of them at 97, now that's efficient!

for the original poster, you've got to do more homework before making purchases. you need to know what something does and what it might need to do it ok, good, very good, or incredible. this way you know what your getting into. read up on these products and check what the pro's have to say and what actual consumer users have to say. more times than not by doing this you will make a more informed purchase that better suits your needs and should also meet or exceed your expectations based on that research. Oh, and polk RTi 10 speakers which i own) are 8 ohm speakers not 4 ohm speakers http://www.crutchfield.com/S-buCBaqZ...ures_and_specs , or http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/rti10/

if those speakers were 4 ohms instead of 8 ohms, have you any idea of how many 8 ohm only rated receivers would have been failed on overheat & overload protection or just burnt-up? i included two respected links above. remember what i said about doing homework. check, re-check then verify and re-verify and from reliable sources, not just forums. that is why i included the links. i am also curious, how long have you had that setup to determine it sounds "empty" as you put it? please don't get defensive as i'm not coming down on you or picking a fight. no, i am stating that too many times i read on here things like that where folks buy things then say oh this brand is no good, it has no power my video looks terrible and come to find out that if they had done some research before making those purchases, more time than not they would have made a better choice. I've done it before and wished i had researched something better and i would have gotten the right thing from the start and not spent the money or rather had to spend it twice. so, you will have a lot of help here in trying to give you good advice to help you in your choices.

this hobby can become expensive and you (unless your rich) don't want to have to re-buy stuff because you don't like it or you don't think it's powerfull enough. read what everyone offers by way of an opinion, do your homework and within your budget, i'm sure you will get the best possible solution to your issue.

best of luck, keep us posted.

[lojack1976]

Actually the 606 was measured with all channels driven to be 73.2watts/channel at 8ohms and 81.2watts/channel at 8ohms with five channels over on Hometheatermag.com which is pretty much expected with a stated rating of 90watts/channel. This is pretty inline with other manufacturers. Some others actually have much lower output than whats stated. Sony and Yamaha have been culprits for years, and its only this year that Onkyo has followed suit with the new 807 being the biggest offender. Even Pioneer has done the same this year with their non-Elite models.

The real problem here is trying to power 6ohm and 4ohm speakers. The 606 is capable of running 6ohms but you are going to tax it more and it will run hotter. It is capable though and rated at 110watts/channel at 6ohms. I haven't seen any real world numbers at 6ohms though. 4ohms is a different story. This receiver is not designed to run 4ohm speakers and I would imagine that the power supply is being heavily taxed since you are trying to run 4ohm, 6ohm, and 8ohm speakers at the same time. You are just asking that receiver and most any receiver to quite a bit. You probably should go with the Pioneer Elite or a Marantz receiver with pre-outs and look toward getting an amp for the fronts.

[Cpus456]

Thanks everyone for the comments/suggestions

Just want to make it clear that i love my equipment, this thread in not to bash onkyo or polk

Main reason i brought this up: I always felt that something was lacking with my system despite my constant upgrading. A couple of weeks back i went to my uncles house and heard his HT - a 5.1 klipsh/cambrige audio setup. i was blown away. so full and rich. Im trying to keep in mind that his area was a about 15 x10 and he was using a 1500 dollar cambridge receiver. Anyways last night i got home an decided to finish up my cockpit so i put in my 5.1 monsoon computer surround sound and i was like wtf, this sounds really good. The bass was a little messy but the definition was amazing.
(I have to mount the rear surrounds still. you can see them on the floor)


these two sessions are what got me looking into my system. wify was out and Transformer 2 went in. i ended up increasing levels on my front stage and that seemed to help. also cranked my sub and it sounded nice.. but not as nice as my uncle cam/klipsh system.

[Cpus456]

the max ive cranked my onkyo was to 62 - kinda scare to go higher know with this 4ohm revelation!

Here is some added info:

Regarding the RTI10 being 4ohm
suggestion:http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...9&postcount=12
confirmation from POLK: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...2&postcount=22

Sitting 13 feet from my center channel
Using Audessy
Current setting a the audessy calibration with minor tweeks

Here are some pictures for my settings

[Cpus456]

Here are some quick pics on what my layout looks like
you can see the my rears and rear surronds have been raised
(yes i wrapped them with lights :P)


here you can see a 3 inch gap for the from the speaker to the wall, but the port on the bottom is basically touching

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Actually the 606 was measured with all channels driven to be 73.2watts/channel at 8ohms and 81.2watts/channel at 8ohms with five channels over on Hometheatermag.com which is pretty much expected with a stated rating of 90watts/channel. This is pretty inline with other manufacturers. Some others actually have much lower output than whats stated. Sony and Yamaha have been culprits for years, and its only this year that Onkyo has followed suit with the new 807 being the biggest offender. Even Pioneer has done the same this year with their non-Elite models.

The real problem here is trying to power 6ohm and 4ohm speakers. The 606 is capable of running 6ohms but you are going to tax it more and it will run hotter. It is capable though and rated at 110watts/channel at 6ohms. I haven't seen any real world numbers at 6ohms though. 4ohms is a different story. This receiver is not designed to run 4ohm speakers and I would imagine that the power supply is being heavily taxed since you are trying to run 4ohm, 6ohm, and 8ohm speakers at the same time. You are just asking that receiver and most any receiver to quite a bit. You probably should go with the Pioneer Elite or a Marantz receiver with pre-outs and look toward getting an amp for the fronts.

Per lojack's post, I will admit when I am wrong and so I stand corrected. The watts per channel on the 606 with 7 channels driven is at 73.2. Here is the bench test for the 606 from HomeTheaterMag, and it does state it runs at 73.2 watts per channel when running all 7 channels.

[JBL4645]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

Here are some quick pics on what my layout looks like
you can see the my rears and rear surronds have been raised
(yes i wrapped them with lights :P)


here you can see a 3 inch gap for the from the speaker to the wall, but the port on the bottom is basically touching

Wow you got more lights wrapped around that flat than George THX Lucas Light-Show.

[prerich]

OP, your room is large and deep and has a lot of openings to it. You must take these factors in account. It seems that your HT is placed to one side - placement can change alot (one speaker is near a corner and the other is next to a wide opening - your sound is in trouble already). I would like to see a layout or drawing of your room configuration (including wide openings to other rooms) so we can get a real ideal of how much power it would take to fill this room with sound. You may not have to spend a dime. Worst case scenerio would be having to buy a new receiver with pre-outs and a multi channel power amp (that is the best configuration though). What you are missing is dyanmics - that's why your room sounds "empty". Your room and your speakers are really the only to components that you "listen" to. Change your room - you will change your sound, and may save you a little cash in the process.

[prerich]

P.S. to all!

Believe it or not - the OP is right, according to the manual - the RTi 10's are 8ohm compatible, but realisticly - they are actually 4ohm speakers. This is a well known fact since last year.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

the max ive cranked my onkyo was to 62 - kinda scare to go higher know with this 4ohm revelation!

Here is some added info:

Regarding the RTI10 being 4ohm
suggestion:http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...9&postcount=12
confirmation from POLK: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...2&postcount=22

Sitting 13 feet from my center channel
Using Audessy
Current setting a the audessy calibration with minor tweeks

Here are some pictures for my settings

I'd be leary of those post you have links on. those are two post from the same person claiming that he "spoke" to a polk representative. the links i put up were from post site on the RTi 10 and from Crutchfield's site on those speakers. can you imagine the potential for lawsuits against polk for damages to speakers and receivers because people didn't know they were "really" 4 ohm speakers? that would have killed many receiver because most of them "can't" handle 4 ohm speakers and they almost all will tell you NOT to use 4 ohm speakers because they can't handle it.

I think the bottom line is read the literature that comes with the receiver and see if it says it supports 4 ohm speakers or not. go with what the literature says. the same would be true for speakers. RTi 10's have been on the market for years and this is the first i've ever heard of this "4 ohm" issue. short of saying it's not true, i'll just say it's incredibly far fetched. Oh and the other thing of "take the jumper off and that will solve the problem until you can get an amp" what the hell kinda advise is that? yeah, just power the high freq side til you get an amp then you can put the jumper back on and you'll be fine. that advise is what killed this for that so called revolation by the poster of that link you provided.

i feel secure that based on what the polk site put out on the spec's for the RTi 10 speakers and they are listed as 8ohms then i'm satisfied more so than that persons post. I think if this were true polk would have done a recall or mass notification to all registered users and on their site about this. I think we can put this to bed after your reply should you or anyone choose to.

[prerich]

Here's a copy and paste from the Manual:
OVERALL FREQUENCY RESPONSE: RÉPONSE EN FRÉQUENCES GLOBALE:
20Hz-27kHz 20Hz-27kHz
-3dB LIMITS: LIMITES -3DB:
35Hz-26kHz 30Hz-26kHz
RECOMMENDED AMPLIFICATION: AMPLIFICATION RECOMMANDÉE:
20-300 watts/channel 20-300 watts/canal
EFFICIENCY (1M,1W): EFFICACITÉ (1M,1W):
89dB 89dB
IMPEDANCE: IMPÉDANCE :
Compatible with 8 Ohm Outputs

The wording sounds suspect - compatible with 8 Ohm outputs - yeah, this is true, but it doesn't state the true impedance of the speakers. Martin Logan CLS speakers present a 4 ohm load but at certian points they present a 1-ohm load !!!1 However, ML notifies you of that. Some speakers give their nominal impedance - that's not given in the Polk manual (like Bose not listing freq responses - and I'm not here to bash Polk - they are an excellent bargin). Hey I'll even put my own Audio Note AN-E/D's out there - they claim 17hz extention - but they must be corner loaded to do such. You have to read how the manual reads, especially that Compatible with 8 OHM Outputs line. From the manual - they claim 20hz to 27khz freq response - well - who needs a sub with that? Then they give the -3db limits as 35hz - 26khz - that's a big difference. I'm not just speaking from what I've seen on the web - but from what I have experienced with Polk when I was an SDA man (SRS-SDA 2.3 and SDA 2's) I know my 2.3's were stated to be 8 ohm but I also know that they were really more like 4 ohms. 8 over a range of signals but for certain things the impedance would dip. I needed power to run these things properly!!! I can certainly see the 10's being 4 ohm speakers but able to connect to an 8 ohm amp - its done alot in the audio world!

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by Cpus456

My problem seems to stem from a lack of power.

I think the addition on my 2xRTI10's, then the CSI6 have put a strain on my Onkyo.

The unit pushes 90 watt per channel and every channel is being used.

yesterday i was reading that my rti10 are actually 4 ohms [with the straps on(read in a polk audio forum and was confirmed by on tech at polk)

Also my CSI6 is running at 6ohms.

This added stress must be the reason my sound seems err, umm Empty! if thats a way to describe it.

The fullness is not there!

now the solution might me to add an amp to power my 3 front units - but the problem lies in the AMP - no pre outs to an external amp
Should have opped for the 707.

I also read the the emptyness might be due to the fact that im using onlyo with my polks - the onks seem to have that effect on them

Heres some info about my setup

Placement:
Open concept condo
Room is about 25x20
Concrete walls
My Front Left and surrond right are up against a wall (see pictures in gallery)
the backs of my front speakers are sitting pretty much against a wall
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21951_full.jpg
https://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/21955_full.jpg

what should i do

go the cheap route and remove the straps on my RTI10, disabling one of the 8 inch woofer so they can run in 8 olms and disconnect my two rear speaker and go 5.1?

or

Sell my onkyo and grab a pioneer elite VSX-21TXH and a 3 channel amp to power my front stage.?

or

Emotiva UMC-1 and UPa - 7

Recommendations?

you need an amp, but this model onkyo i believe doe not have preouts on it. i had this model and sold it for the one in my sig. now i am considering on buying an amp from emotiva. more power and they will sound awesome!!