Presenting Seinfeld and other 4:3 programs in HD

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by cjamescook

2. Personally, if you don't have to stretch the original material, then use it. There are occasions where it would be nice to show the larger area that the 16:9 presents. You are more "in the room" with Jerry. The stage the studio audience is viewing is even more so this way.

These "Seinfeld" posts really belong in their own thread, but to add a little more...

UniversalHD a few years back aired episodes of "Quantum Leap" in a non-4x3 AR, and while I prefer OAR, I have to admit that I would come near getting QL in this format more than I would in a 4x3 AR. The same goes for "Seinfeld".

~Alan

[Jish]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

These "Seinfeld" posts really belong in their own thread, but to add a little more...

UniversalHD a few years back aired episodes of "Quantum Leap" in a non-4x3 AR, and while I prefer OAR, I have to admit that I would come near getting QL in this format more than I would in a 4x3 AR. The same goes for "Seinfeld".

~Alan

Agree with the sentiment that the mods should move this to another thread.

One comment though...

Seinfeld was shot on 35mm film - so isn't the on negative ratio approximately 1.33:1 (1.37:1)?

Therefore to release in a 16:9 format you wouldn't be "opening up" the picture as some people have suggested and showing more. You would actually have to matte the top and the bottom and lose parts of the original image.

Doesn't sound good to me!

[cjamescook]

Originally Posted by frank_t

Well, it was intended for 4:3 display. I can only assume that the directors of the various shows framed it this way on purpose and therefore, it should be preserved and presented as such.

It's an interesting point, but also remember that many directors are concious of eventually releasing their product on SD DVD when they are shooting for the big screen. So, this argument could be applied to films without too much of a stretch.

[Uxi]

I vote 16:9 open matte whenever possible if you're trying to sell to HDTV owners.

The projector crowd is far more elite and fewer. Keep OAR possible for them but otherwise 16:9 should be the objective for mass marketing.

[blitz6speed]

Seinfeld was filmed on 35mm, so a 16x9 version should be Cake!! CAKE I TELLZ YA!

[LynxFX]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I vote 16:9 open matte whenever possible if you're trying to sell to HDTV owners.

The projector crowd is far more elite and fewer. Keep OAR possible for them but otherwise 16:9 should be the objective for mass marketing.

Hell no! We already went through this mess with DVD and it nearly ruined the format for anyone that loves film. It wasn't until OAR purists screamed at Warner that we got Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory in widescreen on DVD. They originally only released a cropped 'fullscreen' version. We still have to deal with stores stocking both versions now, sometimes running out or not stocking widescreen at all, or places like Blockbuster only stocking the MAR'd version of a film. The infuriating thing is that DVD has always had the feature of doing pan and scan on the fly. Few ever added the proper flags for it so DVD player manufacturers added it to their drives. So if people hate black bars, let the player zoom and crop for you to fill your little screen. The same should be true for HD.

The objective shouldn't be destroying the original composition of a film. The objective should be educating the masses. If they still don't like it, then let their player or tv zoom the image.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by spreeguy

I would prefer OAR, but just for my own curiousity, would it be possible to author the show open matte 16x9 and use bd-j to turn on/off the black pillars (via an overlay)?

I am not following your suggestion, can you elaborate a little more?

[Josh]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I am not following your suggestion, can you elaborate a little more?

I believe he means having the show authored in 16x9, and then have a function which would place black bars on the screen similar to matting for 4x3 content. Much like a pop-up menu will cover the image, except this would be solid black and cover the edges.

The problem I see with that, would be that it wouldn't take into account pan-and-scan used to compose the 4x3 image from the source. Thus, you wouldn't get the actual 4x3 representation of the picture.

[WickyWoo]

I would prefer OAR, but just for my own curiousity, would it be possible to author the show open matte 16x9 and use bd-j to turn on/off the black pillars (via an overlay)?

Paid, what he means is that he's assuming that Seinfeld was shot like other shows are today, that they take a Super35 negative and do a 16:9 common-height extraction, and then take the center for the 4:3 version

Seinfeld was shot 4:3 OAR. It used the whole frame of the film, there is no "open matte". You have to tilt and scan it to 16:9

[spreeguy]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I am not following your suggestion, can you elaborate a little more?

Originally Posted by Josh

I believe he means having the show authored in 16x9, and then have a function which would place black bars on the screen similar to matting for 4x3 content. Much like a pop-up menu will cover the image, except this would be solid black and cover the edges.

The problem I see with that, would be that it wouldn't take into account pan-and-scan used to compose the 4x3 image from the source. Thus, you wouldn't get the actual 4x3 representation of the picture.

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

... Seinfeld was shot 4:3 OAR. It used the whole frame of the film, there is no "open matte". You have to tilt and scan it to 16:9

Paid, Josh clairified what I was asking. However, given the issues brought up by Josh and WickyWoo (pan&scan if it was 16:9, and the lack of an "open matte" in this case), I can see this wouldn't be a suitable solution.

[RickD]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Paid, what he means is that he's assuming that Seinfeld was shot like other shows are today, that they take a Super35 negative and do a 16:9 common-height extraction, and then take the center for the 4:3 version

Seinfeld was shot 4:3 OAR. It used the whole frame of the film, there is no "open matte". You have to tilt and scan it to 16:9

Wicky,

I am a little confused. Was it shot on Super 35? If so, how do you do a 4:3 OAR on it? The "tilt and scan" line is what threw me.

Rick

[Deciazulado]

Both Super-35 (Silent Camera Aperture) and regular 35mm cameras (Sound) can have 4:3 aperture plates. About 18 mm tall x 24 mm wide (1.33) can be exposed for the Silent/Super-35, and 15 mm tall x 21 mm wide (1.37) for the Sound system/regular 35mm.

(I''m going to bypass discussion of 4:3 Camera Aperture dimensions vs 4:3 Projector Aperture (about 5% smaller) dimensions to make it simple )

A program intended for 4:3 presentatiion (example: TV) would usualy be composed and shot using the 4:3 full area. So the intended image would be either 18mm x 24mm or 15mm x 21mm with not much more around it and to make it widescreen from 4:3 to fit into a 16:9 display you would have to crop it vertically to about 13.5 mm x 24 mm (Super-35) or 12 mm x 21 mm (regular Sound 35mm) losing up to 25% of the image, and many shots would need to be reframed tilting the image up and down (instead of left and right as in a pan and scan) trying to minimize the damage.

TV shows are shot with a wider safety area (the TV safe action area is 10%, the safe title area is 20%) plus there's can also be a little bit more (the camera aperture vs projector aperture %), so maybe the damage of cropping down to, lets say 1.50 aspect ratio, would be minimal but it still would skew the composition.




With Super-35, since it has more film area and with the advent of HDTV, there is also an alternative way to shot 4:3 programs on it, protecting for a future 16:9 presentation:

Instead of shooting the 4:3 intended image onto the 18mm x 24mm area of the negative,,, they can shoot it centered on the 13.5 tall middle part of the film making it be 13.5mm tall x 18mm wide inside the 18mm x 24mm, still exposing the full surrounding 18mm x 24mm area (or just the 13.5mm height x the 24mm width) So when presented on a 4:3 broadcast/disc you'd see the proper 13.5mm x 18mm 4:3 image, and when presented "open matte" on a 16:9 HDTV broadcast or disc, you'd see the 13.5mm tall image but with the 24mm exposed width, filling the full 16:9 area with exposed but unintended image (hopefully protected in shooting so you don't see the assistant director caught unaware talking to a cute extra. (j/k))


If the 4:3 program was shot protected that way, there would be no problem doing a 16:9 version, and you could just add a matte to it to see it in proper 4:3 if you wanted, (be it electronicaly by the player, or phisically by closing the curtains on your projector set up )

But if it wasn't, and it was shot "4:3 full frame", a widescreen version will have to be "tilt and scanned" (or just cropped from the center all through the program).

[gand41f]

I'd prefer it to be 16:9 only if it doesn't look horrible due to it being framed differently from how it was originally intended.

I can't stand black bars on the side, probably because to me 4:3 content almost always means SDTV (or SD converted to HD at the station -- ugh) and my brain automatically equates side bars = bad picture.

enjoy
gandalf

[DealsR4theDevil]

My worry is more about burn-in than anything else. I dont mind 4:3 at all, in fact, if the show is shot in 4:3, I prefer it. I dont mind the black bars on the sides either as far as picture goes. However, I have a plasma TV and those black bars will burn-in if I wanna watch a bunch of episodes in a row. Would it be possible to make it 4:3 but instead of black bars, the color of the bars change every now and then? Maybe some other solution.

All I know, is that I would not buy a 4:3 show on Blu-ray because I would not want to risk burn-in. I watch my Buffy, Simpsons, Futurama, and Family Guy sparingly because of this reason and I dont want to add another show to my collection that I would have to limit myself from watching.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by DealsR4theDevil

My worry is more about burn-in than anything else. I dont mind 4:3 at all, in fact, if the show is shot in 4:3, I prefer it. I dont mind the black bars on the sides either as far as picture goes. However, I have a plasma TV and those black bars will burn-in if I wanna watch a bunch of episodes in a row. Would it be possible to make it 4:3 but instead of black bars, the color of the bars change every now and then? Maybe some other solution.

All I know, is that I would not buy a 4:3 show on Blu-ray because I would not want to risk burn-in. I watch my Buffy, Simpsons, Futurama, and Family Guy sparingly because of this reason and I dont want to add another show to my collection that I would have to limit myself from watching.

I think we can create mattes in grey as a menu option, but we have not tried this before. How do you watch your 4x3 programs on your plasma? I presume you are stretching/zooming?

[mystiksuicide]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I think we can create mattes in grey as a menu option, but we have not tried this before. How do you watch your 4x3 programs on your plasma? I presume you are stretching/zooming?

You almost have to zoom it or those bars will drive you insane

[DealsR4theDevil]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I think we can create mattes in grey as a menu option, but we have not tried this before. How do you watch your 4x3 programs on your plasma? I presume you are stretching/zooming?

I watch it in 4:3 with the black bars on the side. I cant stand how the picture gets deformed with stretching. And zooming in ruins the picture quality for me. I watch my 4:3 shows in 4:3 but I limit myself so that I dont cause burn-in.

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by DealsR4theDevil

I watch it in 4:3 with the black bars on the side. I cant stand how the picture gets deformed with stretching. And zooming in ruins the picture quality for me. I watch my 4:3 shows in 4:3 but I limit myself so that I dont cause burn-in.

I absolutely agreed, and I'll say again.....
to release Seinfeld in anything but 4:3 format would be horrific.
And then I'd have to keep my SD-DVD complete series boxset

(by the way, is burn-in still such an issue with plasma screens?)

[Deciazulado]

Burn-in with a pillar-boxed 4:3 image is as much of an issue as burn-in with a letterboxed 2.40 "Scope" image...


About creating non-black mattes, well if the static pattern doesn't take much bandwidth/space, maybe include a few choices, dark grey, dark wood, neutral dark cinema curtains?

I'd much prefer to see all content originally composed for 1.33/1.37 (Silent,TV/Academy) in it's correct form, and the display or player have the zoom functions.

So that way people that want to watch Seinfeld in it's original 4:3 full aperture composition (1080p x 1440) can, and those that want a fake widescreen version can too (would be zoomed from 800p x 1440 pixels so it still is many times better than the 360i x 720 they would get from having the DVD fill their 16:9 displays, and also better than 720p)

[DealsR4theDevil]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Burn-in with a pillar-boxed 4:3 image is as much of an issue as burn-in with a letterboxed 2.40 "Scope" image...


About creating non-black mattes, well if the static pattern doesn't take much bandwidth/space, maybe include a few choices, dark grey, dark wood, neutral dark cinema curtains?

I'd much prefer to see all content originally composed for 1.33/1.37 (Silent,TV/Academy) in it's correct form, and the display or player have the zoom functions.

So that way people that want to watch Seinfeld in it's original 4:3 full aperture composition (1080p x 1440) can, and those that want a fake widescreen version can too (would be zoomed from 800p x 1440 pixels so it still is many times better than the 360i x 720 they would get from having the DVD fill their 16:9 displays, and also better than 720p)

Burn-in is less of an issue with letterboxed movies because movies tend to be darker than TV shows. If you notice most movies have an entire atmosphere about them and most TV shows (like seinfeld) are in bright lit apartments. When you have a bright image in the middle with dark black on the sides, you have a bigger chance of burn-in than a movie with black bars because the movie will be less bright or "hot" and it wont be in direct contrast to the black lines. The center image is brighter and it burns stronger than the dark black lines.