Let's delve deeply into color volume and what it means

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I think it is a matter of personal preference. Whether a person prefers higher brightness and greater color saturation or very deep blacks. Color volume is promoted by companies that either sell high brightness displays or that have patents related to high brighness display technology. Color volume is a factor in video quality but there are other factors as well.

Dolby themselves say that the brightness and color volume are important, they are the inventors of the HDR format. You are right though that at this point it's preference because no tech can do both my so it's a race to see who can close the gap faster.

[moviemike4]

Oleds also do whites better also , the best buy sales rep took the 4k flash drive out of the Lg oled and put it into the flag ship sony lcd and the Samsung , the whites were much brighter more white not dull on a oled, he wanted to show that people always talk about blacks when comes to oleds but they do a much better job with whites also .

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Robert, there is no clear agreement as to what the simultaneous (instantaneous or static)
dynamic range of human vision exactly is (see next to the last paragraph of the Introduction here - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/cad...ab6b1c0c0d.pdf for references), but I think most would consider that 7 stop figure to be low balling it. These days most estimate it ranges from 10-14 stops (1000:1 to 16:000:1 contrast ratio) with consensus being ~ 12 stops, for static (instantaneous) dynamic range of the human visual system (HVS)….

Thanks Penton-Man. I shortened your post for brevity.

I was taught that the human visual system can see up to 7 stops in any given fixed APL and ambient light conditions. I also understand that there is no clear agreement on the static dynamic rage we can resolve, but my teaching is also the thinking of Wikipedia where they say "The retina has a static contrast ratio of around 100 000:1 (about 6.5 f-stops)"

Regardless if it's 7 stops or 10 stops or even 12 stops we can not see the full range of HDR's specular highlights that can easily hit 14 stops. Our brain clips the specular highlights.

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks Ray for posting Dolby Vision's HDR paper. I love HDR and DV is my favorite format of HDR as it supports dynamic metadata and 12-bit. So hopefully in the future we'll see more DV content and 12 bit displays.

I do also want to draw your attention to the bottom right side 3D Color Volume chart in the DV pdf you posted. In particular, look at the peak luminance at the top of the chart to see how little color there is at the DV's HDR brightest level.

[bruceames]

I think HDR will look better on OLED when watching DV content and in a darkened room.

But right now high nit LCD is better for UHD BD because HDR10 clips the highlights and makes the picture dimmer on the low nit sets.

With both using Dolby I would think that LCD with higher brightness would hold the edge for HDR daytime viewing, otherwise OLED. So both have their advantages, and neither being necessarily "better" than the other, as it depends on format and viewing environment.

[Robert Zohn]

Good ^ comments. OLED for moderate ambient light viewing of HDR and LCD for bright high ambient light.

Not that most folks can get a proper HDR10 calibration, but when an OLED is set-up properly they do not clip the highlights with HDR10.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

my teaching is also the thinking of Wikipedia where they say "The retina has a static contrast ratio of around 100 000:1 (about 6.5 f-stops)"

Sometimes using Wikipedia is not that great of an idea.

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Regardless if it's 7 stops or 10 stops or even 12 stops we can not see the full range of HDR's specular highlights that can easily hit 14 stops. Our brain clips the specular highlights.

Hmm, interesting assertion, for when I say human visual system (HVS) above, I’m actually referring not only to the eye, but all the neural pathways including from the optic nerve distally to areas of the cerebral cortex.

Despite occasionally joking around with topics like flatulence in order to encourage people to learn something new, I’m also a wee bit familiar with the brain and its connections too, see the brain hyperlink, i.e. the human connectome project.

Do you have a citation (on the order of pubmed, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16102542) which had to pass through at least some sort of independent editorial review panel in order to get published in a scientific journal rather than something from the layman’s press to back up that clipping level assertion?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

So hopefully in the future we'll see more DV content and 12 bit displays.

You'll see the acquisition and display of HFR (100/120 fps) first. That will bode well for your sports minded clients.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bruceames

So both have their advantages, and neither being necessarily "better" than the other....

That rational thought may upset the marketers and the biased fanatics favoring one display technology over another who debate this topic on the internet.

Bruce, good to see you’re alive and kicking. Haven’t seen you around on your HDR Discussion thread recently. Been training? or just avoiding the thread? On that note, I may (depending on me body) be running in the Duluth marathon on June 17th ? which I think is entirely around Lake Superior in Minnesota, or so I’m told by friends encouraging me to go. PM me if you plan on being there. This would be my first full marathon. I may need your assistance as a carabao.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

That rational thought may upset the marketers and the biased fanatics favoring one display technology over another who debate this topic on the internet.

Bruce, good to see you’re alive and kicking. Haven’t seen you around on your HDR Discussion thread recently. Been training? or just avoiding the thread? On that note, I may (depending on me body) be running in the Duluth marathon on June 17th ? which I think is entirely around Lake Superior in Minnesota, or so I’m told by friends encouraging me to go. PM me if you plan on being there. This would be my first full marathon. I may need your assistance as a carabao.

I've been pretty busy with training and other hobbies, but I still read the HDR Discussion thread and try to absorb what's not over my head (a lot of that stuff is really technical, and some people like Geoff have a gift for explaining in all in layman's terms). I'll send you a PM...

[puddy77]

Dolby has a document called Color Volume Limitations with HLG, basically saying HLG can't keep up with PQ in the extremes. Then the BBC's HLG FAQ addresses the problem saying don't worry about it right now (question 14). BBC says they will have more details in an forthcoming color volume document.

[Penton-Man]

puddy, on going discussion….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post13129321

and to Dolby’s white paper…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post12671964

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

dynamic range of human vision exactly is (see next to the last paragraph of the Introduction here - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/cad...ab6b1c0c0d.pdf for references)....

Full (up to date) reference disclosure regarding the primary author of that ^ paper….https://www.linkedin.com/in/timo-kunkel-bb021917, he, like Rob A. who I referenced in a prior post somewhere on this forum has also spoken at the HPA retreat .

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames

I've been pretty busy with training and other hobbies, but I still read the HDR Discussion thread and try to absorb what's not over my head (a lot of that stuff is really technical, and some people like Geoff have a gift for explaining in all in layman's terms). I'll send you a PM...

That's because I AM a layman, I've got no specific expertise on all this, professional or otherwise. I just listen when the grown-ups are talking and try to make sense of it myself, that's half the freakin' battle right there. If I can then help other folks make sense of it, so much the better.

[Robert Zohn]

Today's Flatpaneshd article touches much on what we are discussing here. Good read.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Today's Flatpaneshd article touches much on what we are discussing here. Good read.

Nice article and I found this paragraph to be interesting:

"Nevertheless, Samsung believes that it can be done (adding dynamic metadata for HDR10) and that is why it has not yet partnered with Dolby. It even believes that it can add support via a firmware update to current UHD Blu-ray players. Samsung gave us a demonstration of how it hopes to implement dynamic metadata in the HDR10 standard. We will cover that in a later article."

[anthonymoody]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Nice article and I found this paragraph to be interesting:

"Nevertheless, Samsung believes that it can be done (adding dynamic metadata for HDR10) and that is why it has not yet partnered with Dolby. It even believes that it can add support via a firmware update to current UHD Blu-ray players. Samsung gave us a demonstration of how it hopes to implement dynamic metadata in the HDR10 standard. We will cover that in a later article."

I saw that. I'd prefer though to have read that they believe it can be added via F/W to the *displays* which cost much much much more than the players

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's because I AM a layman, I've got no specific expertise on all this, professional or otherwise....

In an nutshell, in their Reassessment….paper which I referenced above, what Timo and Erik are indicating is that the instantaneous dynamic range of the human visual system has been shown to be around 13-14 stops building to greater than 16 stops if the image is viewed for more than 500 ms.

[Geoff D]

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Don’t feel badly. It’s all relative. I never thought of doing this either….
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...ssure-physics/

We've got a new metal now on earth folks!