Critical discussion Thread: Your thoughts on Kino-Lorber Blu-rays

[James Luckard]

As I understand it, KL wants to keep the old thread focused on upcoming releases.

They want this new one to be for anything post-release. That seems logical to me.

As long as they reply to respectfully posed questions and comments in a timely manner here, as well as in the old thread, it seems like a reasonable request from them to divide the discussion.

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

As I understand it, KL wants to keep the old thread focused on upcoming releases.

They want this new one to be for anything post-release. That seems logical to me.

As long as they reply to respectfully posed questions and comments in a timely manner here, as well as in the old thread, it seems like a reasonable request from them to divide the discussion.

It also keeps comments about disc problems away from the main thread. Which in turn could affect sales on those said discs, since most visit that thread only.....

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by jcs913

It also keeps comments about disc problems away from the main thread. Which in turn could affect sales on those said discs, since most visit that thread only.....

Now it makes total sense!

[AgentOrange]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

As I understand it, KL wants to keep the old thread focused on upcoming releases.

They want this new one to be for anything post-release. That seems logical to me.

As long as they reply to respectfully posed questions and comments in a timely manner here, as well as in the old thread, it seems like a reasonable request from them to divide the discussion.

It's actually a good idea, if someone actually checked the "issues" thread and responded to them. Even an "ok, there was a bad mistake but we can't justify a recall" would be better than nothing IMO, but I'm sure some people probably couldn't accept that as an explanation. It would be nice to have a list of issues and resolutions, but I doubt any label would want to maintain such a thing LOL.

[Zygmunt22]

Okay, so I guess I posted this originally in the wrong place...though I don't think there's anything more that can be added here. I noticed that the blu-ray of Billy the Kid vs. Dracula lacks proper day-for-night timing. Is it true that in the case of StudioCanal titles, Kino has no control over the masters? Very happy to see this get a Blu...not trying to beat them up over this one...but (obviously) the day for night stuff is off and was just curious as to why. I don't think Kino Lorber Insider will comment anymore on it but wondering if anyone else had anything to add.

[Shemp]

Originally Posted by Zygmunt22

Okay, so I guess I posted this originally in the wrong place...though I don't think there's anything more that can be added here. I noticed that the blu-ray of Billy the Kid vs. Dracula lacks proper day-for-night timing. Is it true that in the case of StudioCanal titles, Kino has no control over the masters? Very happy to see this get a Blu...not trying to beat them up over this one...but (obviously) the day for night stuff is off and was just curious as to why. I don't think Kino Lorber Insider will comment anymore on it but wondering if anyone else had anything to add.

I avoided buying it after hearing about the lack of day for night filtering. It's somewhat amusing that every review I've seen online for the blu ray doesn't pick up on it, and I assume the two guys doing the commentary track didn't either. The movie is written off as a piece of crap and even horror film fans at other forums don't care about it being missing, which is a shame. All films deserve to be seen as the director intended them to be seen, no matter how poorly regarded they may be.

[Kino Lorber Insider]

Originally Posted by Zygmunt22

Okay, so I guess I posted this originally in the wrong place...though I don't think there's anything more that can be added here. I noticed that the blu-ray of Billy the Kid vs. Dracula lacks proper day-for-night timing. Is it true that in the case of StudioCanal titles, Kino has no control over the masters? Very happy to see this get a Blu...not trying to beat them up over this one...but (obviously) the day for night stuff is off and was just curious as to why. I don't think Kino Lorber Insider will comment anymore on it but wondering if anyone else had anything to add.

This is a low budget movie restored by Studiocanal.

It depends where the film elements are stored, we remaster and oversee the ones stored in the US (Day of the Dolphin, Winter Kills, etc.) and they remaster all the ones in Europe.

[mja345]

Felt like the issue in the regular KLSC thread, from the little I read of the dispute, was the fact that the main criticism was coming from a certain notorious member who always acts like a complete a-hole, and that's putting it mildly, and some other member whose posts I had honestly never seen before who was being pretty hostile. I think criticism is good when it's constructive, but some people have no idea how to present criticism without things turning into a shitshow.

Obviously, KL needs to acknowledge issues if they're there, even if there's no replacement issued. The "Bitter Moon" audio issue is definitely noticeable. Hugh Grant, in particular, sounds like he's on helium the entire film.

[nitin]

Originally Posted by mja345

Felt like the issue in the regular KLSC thread, from the little I read of the dispute, was the fact that the main criticism was coming from a certain notorious member who always acts like a complete a-hole, and that's putting it mildly, and some other member whose posts I had honestly never seen before who was being pretty hostile. I think criticism is good when it's constructive, but some people have no idea how to present criticism without things turning into a shitshow.

Obviously, KL needs to acknowledge issues if they're there, even if there's no replacement issued. The "Bitter Moon" audio issue is definitely noticeable. Hugh Grant, in particular, sounds like he's on helium the entire film.

The issue is the same as usual, KL refuses to acknowledge genuine issues when they could at least try what I suggested above. Denying that issues exist, especially when there is plenty of evidence, is stupid, especially when coupled with the KLI’s tendency to become hostile.

[mja345]

Originally Posted by nitin

The issue is the same as usual, KL refuses to acknowledge genuine issues when they could at least try what I suggested above. Denying that issues exist, especially when there is plenty of evidence, is stupid, especially when coupled with the KLI’s tendency to become hostile.

I agree, but, let's be real, anytime the forum member I'm referring to in my post above (I'm sure people can figure out who I'm talking about, he's easily the most hostile guy on this board) gets involved in anything, it doesn't end well. That's why that particular discussion seemed to go off the rails pretty quickly.

[nitin]

Originally Posted by mja345

I agree, but, let's be real, anytime the forum member I'm referring to in my post above (I'm sure people can figure out who I'm talking about, he's easily the most hostile guy on this board) gets involved in anything, it doesn't end well. That's why that particular discussion seemed to go off the rails pretty quickly.

Bates Motel is unusually hostile but I always read his posts with the Psycho strings playing.

[javi92]

They need competent QC people and less marketing people.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by nitin

Bates Motel is unusually hostile but I always read his posts with the Psycho strings playing.

That, sir, is a compliment.

I also rarely if ever START the hostility, but am typically replying to it — because there's a lot of misinformation that gets spread like wildfire, or things that need to be addressed, like the failure of companies to own up to their mistakes. People don't seem to realize that some of these films might not get another chance to be issued correctly, then all we will have left forever is a botched version.

Originally Posted by nitin

If there are technical errors on a disc, but it’s not financially viable to offer replacements or corrected discs, I think it would still be preferable to most consumers if that is said and the errors are acknowledged rather than denied (and learnt from so that they don’t happen again).

If it's not financially viable for a company to fix a faulty product, then they shouldn't be releasing said product in the first place, period. Companies have to eat profit when they screw up, or not screw up. Shout/Scream has had more replacement programs than anyone, but they always (or almost always) correct their mistakes, Creepshow audio notwithstanding. Kino should as well.

I said recently that after a bumpy start, Kino has really stepped up with some fantastic releases in the past few years. But then something like Bitter Moon happens, and when they fail to fix it, or even acknowledge there's a problem (which it's 100% verifiable there is), then it taints everything else they do. Just eat the profit and fix it, That's their job, to issue films and issue them CORRECTLY — that means picture, audio, subtitles, etc. Not only fix things "when warranted," per KLIs direct quote. EVERY MISTAKE is warranted, because it's a mistake.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

I wish not to start brutal arguments, but just to point out things I noticed on some KL BDs I've viewed.

Link: Original mix is stereo when KL released it in mono, and claimed the master file StudioCanal handed them had a 1 channel track on and assumed it was released that way. Some claimed KL simply did a downfold of the stereo to a mono bus, however the truth is the StudioCanal intro that plays before start of the film IS in stereo surround, but the rest of the film is dual mono. This definitely stems down to the element SC had supplied more so than Kino tinkering with the audio like on Bitter Moon. They could have done something to resolve the mix issue, but since Link isn't a very big title and won't be a good seller, I can kinda see why they would not do a program on it and move on.

Speaking of this, several Touchstone titles such as My Father the Hero and Celtic Pride also suffer from Mono mixes when they had 2.0 surround or 5.1 on the DVDs. However, KL is not entirely at fault for those as the Mill Creek versions had the same flawed tracks, likely stemming from whatever masters Disney/Buena Vista had on hand to send out quick. At the very least someone at KL could have noted the issues and tried to get them fixed, or at worse sync proper audio from another source (provided if they even had permission to do so being it's the Mouse they're dealing with).

As for Bitter Moon, that one was confirmed to be a 25fps StudioCanal had handed them and KL did a back conversion on it to 24fps. However, the audio was not converted correctly and results in "The Creepshow Effect" where the rate is 24fps and syncs to the 24fps video, but the pitch was left unconverted from whatever software was used to convert 25-24fps and retains the higher 25fps PAL pitch as the result. Kinda sad they won't fix the issue and claim it's fine with most people, but it could've been worse if they did that and completely botch the video by having ghosting from an even lazier 25fps conversion or dupe frames.

The master debacle for KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS sounds more like a communications issue, with the French claiming the master sent out was the latest one while KL assumed latest meant 4k, when it clearly wasn't.

It's a bit odd KLI gets rather defensive and dismisses things even when asked politely, but I kinda see why as he/she has to put up with a lot of crazies here and shrugs off the calmer folks as the result. However, if they would balance things a bit and take input and assistance from the less hostle breed instead of denying everything and assuming everyone is a troll, things could get done and improve. It's a 50/50 thing and the internet is QUITE the place!

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

The master debacle for KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS sounds more like a communications issue, with the French claiming the master sent out was the latest one while KL assumed latest meant 4k, when it clearly wasn't.

As usual : it's also an internal KL issue. The older master obviously isn't a new 4K one, and this shouldn't have been a direct tell-tale for KL either to go back to SC and insist it's not the newer one, or inform their customers that it will be the older master. As it is, it does again make it looks like KL's customers are more knowledgeable than KL's own team, which obviously isn't a reputation a label would want to project.

[nitin]

The most gobsmacking denial, and accompanying hostility and refusal to fix, is still for The Interpreter and the Lang silents (which were fixed in the boxset I believe but not for the individual releases).

[dissention]

Originally Posted by nitin

The most gobsmacking denial, and accompanying hostility and refusal to fix, is still for The Interpreter and the Lang silents (which were fixed in the boxset I believe but not for the individual releases).

Don't forget the response to Deep Rising and the supposed 4k transfer they released. That was my all-time fave.

[Kino Lorber Insider]

We reached out to StudioCanal again and asked them to confirm that we received the latest master for KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS and not an older one. They are in France and most likely on holiday, but we hope to hear back from them soon.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by Kino Lorber Insider

We reached out to StudioCanal again and asked them to confirm that we received the latest master for KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS and not an older one. They are in France and most likely on holiday, but we hope to hear back from them soon.

You did. Not only did fans notice, but reviewers as well. It didn't stop you guys from ignoring the audio issue on Bitter Moon, but maybe this will "warrant" a replacement.

This new release was supposed to introduce the 4K restoration in the United States, but it is sourced from the previous 2K restoration of the film.

[DukeTogo84]

I really haven't had major issue with Kino releases. I own about 70 and all have been pretty good. I will say that there is an issue with Bitter Moon, but it's not major, but it is there.

I think the biggest issue I have with Kino is that Extreme Prejudice hasn't been announced yet.