Critical discussion Thread: Your thoughts on Kino-Lorber Blu-rays

[nitin]

If there are technical errors on a disc, but it’s not financially viable to offer replacements or corrected discs, I think it would still be preferable to most consumers if that is said and the errors are acknowledged rather than denied (and learnt from so that they don’t happen again).

[AgentOrange]

Originally Posted by mdaniels

What's wrong with Nosferatu?

Silent films used to run in 18fps or 20 fps, and have to be converted to 24fps for 1080/24p blu-ray. In order to do this, the person authoring the blu-ray disc would have to repeat a number of frames. For a 18fps movie, You'd basically insert a repeat after every 3rd frame which would result in 6 "repeated" frames out of 24 frames per second. Something like that. I'm not sure if that's the method that is always used, but that is the gist of what has to happen to convert from different framerates.

If you watch their Nosferatu disc, the movements are quite jerky. Somehow this frame-rate conversion got screwed up really badly on the Nosferatu disc, someone was able to determine it is actually MISSING frames. Instead of having 18 frames and 6 repeated per second as it is supposed to, in actuality it only has like 14 frames and 10 repeats per second. Which obviously makes it look quite choppy compared to the other releases of the film. It's the kind of mistake that definitely should have been recalled and corrected. As far as I know they've never even acknowledged there was an issue with it.

[AgentOrange]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

As I understand it, KL wants to keep the old thread focused on upcoming releases.

They want this new one to be for anything post-release. That seems logical to me.

As long as they reply to respectfully posed questions and comments in a timely manner here, as well as in the old thread, it seems like a reasonable request from them to divide the discussion.

It's actually a good idea, if someone actually checked the "issues" thread and responded to them. Even an "ok, there was a bad mistake but we can't justify a recall" would be better than nothing IMO, but I'm sure some people probably couldn't accept that as an explanation. It would be nice to have a list of issues and resolutions, but I doubt any label would want to maintain such a thing LOL.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by prkchopexpress

this is bs. only a spoiled, entitled brat thinks not having a release at all is better than a release that may not be perfect. do you realize how good we have just to be able to get stuff in the original aspect ratio? do you remember how awful bus was? thank goodness you're not in charge of anything.

and then to try and sell the nonsense "customers will be more satisfied and will continue wanting to supporting the label, meaning even more business." gimme a freaking break. just admit you're cheap AND high maintenance at the same time and want to be able to get free stuff if you some random person somewhere claimed the film print looked different and the color values aren't to your liking.


I personally have no issues with any of the kino discs in my collection.

this is an unrealistic nitpick, but I wish there was more behind the scenes material. I also fully understand that sometimes it just isn't possible logistically. and this not something that is unique to kino. if you said I could I have 20 barebones releases of movies I want that have not been available that I've never seen or ten stacked special editions of stuff I already love... I'll take the 20 barebones editions.

Whatever you say, MisterLime. I mean, prkchopexpress.

[Logos14]

Originally Posted by AgentOrange

If you watch their Nosferatu disc, the movements are quite jerky. Somehow this frame-rate conversion got screwed up really badly on the Nosferatu disc, someone was able to determine it is actually MISSING frames. Instead of having 18 frames and 6 repeated per second as it is supposed to, in actuality it only has like 14 frames and 10 repeats per second. Which obviously makes it look quite choppy compared to the other releases of the film. It's the kind of mistake that definitely should have been recalled and corrected. As far as I know they've never even acknowledged there was an issue with it.

And to my knowledge none of these problems are present on the Masters of Cinema release. If only Kino had released that version.

[mja345]

Felt like the issue in the regular KLSC thread, from the little I read of the dispute, was the fact that the main criticism was coming from a certain notorious member who always acts like a complete a-hole, and that's putting it mildly, and some other member whose posts I had honestly never seen before who was being pretty hostile. I think criticism is good when it's constructive, but some people have no idea how to present criticism without things turning into a shitshow.

Obviously, KL needs to acknowledge issues if they're there, even if there's no replacement issued. The "Bitter Moon" audio issue is definitely noticeable. Hugh Grant, in particular, sounds like he's on helium the entire film.

[nitin]

Originally Posted by mja345

Felt like the issue in the regular KLSC thread, from the little I read of the dispute, was the fact that the main criticism was coming from a certain notorious member who always acts like a complete a-hole, and that's putting it mildly, and some other member whose posts I had honestly never seen before who was being pretty hostile. I think criticism is good when it's constructive, but some people have no idea how to present criticism without things turning into a shitshow.

Obviously, KL needs to acknowledge issues if they're there, even if there's no replacement issued. The "Bitter Moon" audio issue is definitely noticeable. Hugh Grant, in particular, sounds like he's on helium the entire film.

The issue is the same as usual, KL refuses to acknowledge genuine issues when they could at least try what I suggested above. Denying that issues exist, especially when there is plenty of evidence, is stupid, especially when coupled with the KLI’s tendency to become hostile.

[mja345]

Originally Posted by nitin

The issue is the same as usual, KL refuses to acknowledge genuine issues when they could at least try what I suggested above. Denying that issues exist, especially when there is plenty of evidence, is stupid, especially when coupled with the KLI’s tendency to become hostile.

I agree, but, let's be real, anytime the forum member I'm referring to in my post above (I'm sure people can figure out who I'm talking about, he's easily the most hostile guy on this board) gets involved in anything, it doesn't end well. That's why that particular discussion seemed to go off the rails pretty quickly.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

I wish not to start brutal arguments, but just to point out things I noticed on some KL BDs I've viewed.

Link: Original mix is stereo when KL released it in mono, and claimed the master file StudioCanal handed them had a 1 channel track on and assumed it was released that way. Some claimed KL simply did a downfold of the stereo to a mono bus, however the truth is the StudioCanal intro that plays before start of the film IS in stereo surround, but the rest of the film is dual mono. This definitely stems down to the element SC had supplied more so than Kino tinkering with the audio like on Bitter Moon. They could have done something to resolve the mix issue, but since Link isn't a very big title and won't be a good seller, I can kinda see why they would not do a program on it and move on.

Speaking of this, several Touchstone titles such as My Father the Hero and Celtic Pride also suffer from Mono mixes when they had 2.0 surround or 5.1 on the DVDs. However, KL is not entirely at fault for those as the Mill Creek versions had the same flawed tracks, likely stemming from whatever masters Disney/Buena Vista had on hand to send out quick. At the very least someone at KL could have noted the issues and tried to get them fixed, or at worse sync proper audio from another source (provided if they even had permission to do so being it's the Mouse they're dealing with).

As for Bitter Moon, that one was confirmed to be a 25fps StudioCanal had handed them and KL did a back conversion on it to 24fps. However, the audio was not converted correctly and results in "The Creepshow Effect" where the rate is 24fps and syncs to the 24fps video, but the pitch was left unconverted from whatever software was used to convert 25-24fps and retains the higher 25fps PAL pitch as the result. Kinda sad they won't fix the issue and claim it's fine with most people, but it could've been worse if they did that and completely botch the video by having ghosting from an even lazier 25fps conversion or dupe frames.

The master debacle for KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS sounds more like a communications issue, with the French claiming the master sent out was the latest one while KL assumed latest meant 4k, when it clearly wasn't.

It's a bit odd KLI gets rather defensive and dismisses things even when asked politely, but I kinda see why as he/she has to put up with a lot of crazies here and shrugs off the calmer folks as the result. However, if they would balance things a bit and take input and assistance from the less hostle breed instead of denying everything and assuming everyone is a troll, things could get done and improve. It's a 50/50 thing and the internet is QUITE the place!

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

The master debacle for KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS sounds more like a communications issue, with the French claiming the master sent out was the latest one while KL assumed latest meant 4k, when it clearly wasn't.

As usual : it's also an internal KL issue. The older master obviously isn't a new 4K one, and this shouldn't have been a direct tell-tale for KL either to go back to SC and insist it's not the newer one, or inform their customers that it will be the older master. As it is, it does again make it looks like KL's customers are more knowledgeable than KL's own team, which obviously isn't a reputation a label would want to project.

[nitin]

The most gobsmacking denial, and accompanying hostility and refusal to fix, is still for The Interpreter and the Lang silents (which were fixed in the boxset I believe but not for the individual releases).

[nitin]

Originally Posted by mja345

I agree, but, let's be real, anytime the forum member I'm referring to in my post above (I'm sure people can figure out who I'm talking about, he's easily the most hostile guy on this board) gets involved in anything, it doesn't end well. That's why that particular discussion seemed to go off the rails pretty quickly.

Bates Motel is unusually hostile but I always read his posts with the Psycho strings playing.

[javi92]

They need competent QC people and less marketing people.

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by javi92

They need competent QC people and less marketing people.

While they might need to devote more time/resources to QC, I don't think they need less marketing people (how many are they anyway ? 2 ?). But they definitely need their representative to understand they're only human and can do mistakes. Because they sure do, and they do need to acknowledge them instead of being over-hostile first and then say "hum, yeah, maybe we'll look into it".

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Really, is this thread necessary? It seems to have been created in a pique of anger and in many ways will probably prove to be awkward, confusing, aimless and redundant. I just don’t see the need for it when there has been an accepted all encompassing thread devoted to the label for so many years now. I understand that things got a little out of control in the other thread, but isn’t it the moderator’s job to step in and resolve a runaway thread rather than a label rep impetuously attempting to change all the rules in the middle of a game?

No, this thread is not necessary at all. One reason being that HD Goofnut already created a thread devoted to problems with Kino blu-rays where these matters could be discussed:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=319225

Originally Posted by James Luckard

As I understand it, KL wants to keep the old thread focused on upcoming releases.

They want this new one to be for anything post-release. That seems logical to me.

As long as they reply to respectfully posed questions and comments in a timely manner here, as well as in the old thread, it seems like a reasonable request from them to divide the discussion.

The Kino Lorber Insider seems to forget that he did not create the Kino Lorber thread yet they seem to act like they are in charge of that thread and that it's their personal product advertising thread.

There's really no reason people can't raise issues on the main Kino thread and if things get out of hand, involve moderators. The only reason the Code Red and Dark Force threads are out of hand is because Bill and Dave's antics encourage it.

[Dan_Shane]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

No, this thread is not necessary at all. One reason being that HD Goofnut already created a thread devoted to problems with Kino blu-rays where these matters could be discussed:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=319225

The easiest way to kill a redundant thread is just don't post to it. We can use the threads that are approved for the subject at hand. It doesn't matter to me who creates a thread -- rather I care about the mood and content of the subject itself.

If KLI decides to no longer post on a forum because the company is being mean-mouthed I would say that the originator of the thread has failed as a moderator. It's a poor host who invites someone into their house just to be abused.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

No, this thread is not necessary at all. One reason being that HD Goofnut already created a thread devoted to problems with Kino blu-rays where these matters could be discussed:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=319225



The Kino Lorber Insider seems to forget that he did not create the Kino Lorber thread yet they seem to act like they are in charge of that thread and that it's their personal product advertising thread.

There's really no reason people can't raise issues on the main Kino thread and if things get out of hand, involve moderators. The only reason the Code Red and Dark Force threads are out of hand is because Bill and Dave's antics encourage it.

I agree, it does seem kind of silly. I'm not aware of any other studio thread that has a separate thread for discussing the technical merits (and issues) of that studio's releases. It seems like Mr. KLI thinks the main thread should be strictly a marketing tool for Kino Lorber. Isn't that what Facebook and Twitter are for?

I'm also not convinced that having a separate thread will reduce the noise. Most likely, it will just duplicate it.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by belcherman

I agree, it does seem kind of silly. I'm not aware of any other studio thread that has a separate thread for discussing the technical merits (and issues) of that studio's releases. It seems like Mr. KLI thinks the main thread should be strictly a marketing tool for Kino Lorber. Isn't that what Facebook and Twitter are for?

I'm also not convinced that having a separate thread will reduce the noise. Most likely, it will just duplicate it.

Well honestly, I don't know what KLI is thinking. He's basically created a thread for the express purpose of what he calls "critical discussion" but you know is going to turn into a label bashing thread when people get riled up. So, is he okay with that? As long as it's not the main Kino thread? Is he just going to divorce himself from this thread when it gets too heated in the kitchen? Will people then hound him on the other one asking him why he's not responding on this one? So many questions!

And, yes, he does think the main Kino thread is for him to make announcements which I'm sure this website encourages because it means "we have the privilege of an insider who posts here" because that, of course, translates into web traffic and more importantly Amazon webclick$ so from a business perspective, it's mutually beneficial for both of them.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by nitin

The most gobsmacking denial, and accompanying hostility and refusal to fix, is still for The Interpreter and the Lang silents (which were fixed in the boxset I believe but not for the individual releases).

Don't forget the response to Deep Rising and the supposed 4k transfer they released. That was my all-time fave.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by nitin

Bates Motel is unusually hostile but I always read his posts with the Psycho strings playing.

That, sir, is a compliment.

I also rarely if ever START the hostility, but am typically replying to it — because there's a lot of misinformation that gets spread like wildfire, or things that need to be addressed, like the failure of companies to own up to their mistakes. People don't seem to realize that some of these films might not get another chance to be issued correctly, then all we will have left forever is a botched version.

Originally Posted by nitin

If there are technical errors on a disc, but it’s not financially viable to offer replacements or corrected discs, I think it would still be preferable to most consumers if that is said and the errors are acknowledged rather than denied (and learnt from so that they don’t happen again).

If it's not financially viable for a company to fix a faulty product, then they shouldn't be releasing said product in the first place, period. Companies have to eat profit when they screw up, or not screw up. Shout/Scream has had more replacement programs than anyone, but they always (or almost always) correct their mistakes, Creepshow audio notwithstanding. Kino should as well.

I said recently that after a bumpy start, Kino has really stepped up with some fantastic releases in the past few years. But then something like Bitter Moon happens, and when they fail to fix it, or even acknowledge there's a problem (which it's 100% verifiable there is), then it taints everything else they do. Just eat the profit and fix it, That's their job, to issue films and issue them CORRECTLY — that means picture, audio, subtitles, etc. Not only fix things "when warranted," per KLIs direct quote. EVERY MISTAKE is warranted, because it's a mistake.