PCM vs. True HD on 300

[ryoohki]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

do you know whats up with Sony now using TrueHD instead of PCM.

Sony is now using 24bit and 20bits TrueHD files since 24bit PCM is a bandwidth hugger (nearly 7mbits is needed) vs 3.5-3.9 for a TrueHD is 24bits..

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by ryoohki

Sony is now using 24bit and 20bits TrueHD files since 24bit PCM is a bandwidth hugger (nearly 7mbits is needed) vs 3.5-3.9 for a TrueHD is 24bits..

so are they going to be using higher bitrates for the picture????? cause if they don't choose to use that extra bandwith, then thats just wasting perfectly good bandwith and being lazy???

[darkedgex]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

so are they going to be using higher bitrates for the picture????? cause if they don't choose to use that extra bandwith, then thats just wasting perfectly good bandwith and being lazy???

Uh wow. No, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio is better than Linear PCM. And yes, they usually use the saved space to add more content or increase the picture quality... at any rate, the "lazy" route here would be to use raw LPCM because encoding the audio actually takes some time and effort.

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by darkedgex

Uh wow. No, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio is better than Linear PCM. And yes, they usually use the saved space to add more content or increase the picture quality... at any rate, the "lazy" route here would be to use raw LPCM because encoding the audio actually takes some time and effort.

please, tell me how TrueHD and DTS-HD MA provide a better audio experience than PCM?????

If you got proof they are increasing the bitrates of the Picture, than thats find, but Id like to see some proof, at least from an insider.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by darkedgex

Uh wow. No, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio is better than Linear PCM. And yes, they usually use the saved space to add more content or increase the picture quality... at any rate, the "lazy" route here would be to use raw LPCM because encoding the audio actually takes some time and effort.

Both DTHD and DTS-MA are converted to PCM for playback, so no they can't sound better if the same bit depth/sampling is used for both tracks.

DTHD and DTS-MA's advantage over PCM is on storage requirements only. That saved space might not be used for video, but to add other languages in HD, or PIP, etc...

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

Both DTHD and DTS-MA are converted to PCM for playback, so no they can't sound better if the same bit depth/sampling is used for both tracks.

DTHD and DTS-MA's advantage over PCM is on storage requirements only. That saved space might not be used for video, but to add other languages in HD, or PIP, etc...

is storage really a concern for blu-ray??? i mean how many movies have come within 5GB of hitting 50GB???? Isn't this issue more about bandwith than anything, which dropping PCM is only worth it to 1. Add a PiP track or 2. Increase video bandwith.

[Canada]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

please, tell me how TrueHD and DTS-HD MA provide a better audio experience than PCM?????

If you got proof they are increasing the bitrates of the Picture, than thats find, but Id like to see some proof, at least from an insider.

In my experience it doesn't PCM I always find is the best option.

I belive PCM on a 25 gig disk does compromise the picture. I don't find having uncompressed PCM compromises picture on 50 gig disks compromises the picture.


Bunea Vista/Touchstone/Disney

The Rock
Cars
Bridge To Terabitha
Lost Season 3
Apocalypto
Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl
Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Mans Chest
Pirates of the Carribean: At Worlds End

Sony

Casino Royale
Black Hawk Down (some people may argue the picture quality is not all that great, but I beg to differ.)

PCM is my audio option of choice also I am puzzled why studio's are moving away from it.

[blu69]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

please, tell me how TrueHD and DTS-HD MA provide a better audio experience than PCM?????

If you got proof they are increasing the bitrates of the Picture, than thats find, but Id like to see some proof, at least from an insider.

I've found that on discs that had both -- PCM was 16bit where TrueHD was 24bit. The 16bit version might just sound a bit louder; thus the quick perception of being better quality but not so.

[Escalus]

What is a ok receiver that plays LPCM?

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by blu69

I've found that on discs that had both -- PCM was 16bit where TrueHD was 24bit. The 16bit version might just sound a bit louder; thus the quick perception of being better quality but not so.

thats not a valid comparison though. If both are 24bit, PCM wins everytime. You can't gimp the PCM specs and then point and say, PCM isn't as good. I can do that with anything. I can put MPEG-2 on a BD25 with a lot of compression and then make a VC-1 HD30 and say, look it HD DVD supports better quality. Thats exactly what that 16bit PCM/ 24bit TrueHD comparison is.

PCM has the ability for better audio than TrueHD. Now if studios don't use PCM to its full ability its unfair to say, look! look! PCM isn't as good and takes up more space.

[Bango]

I just bought a Harman Kardon AVR 245 at a garage sale for $100...so building a surround sound for my bedroom...anybody know if this model does not support hdmi AUDIO switching? I'm able to get video through it...just not audio for some reason...

[darkedgex]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

please, tell me how TrueHD and DTS-HD MA provide a better audio experience than PCM?????

They don't and I never said they did. I said Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio are better, but I never said they sounded better. They're better in the sense that they use less disk space.

If you got proof they are increasing the bitrates of the Picture, than thats find, but Id like to see some proof, at least from an insider.

Well, some discs with TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio use up the full capacity of a BD50. If they were using LPCM, they would naturally have to lower the video bitrate. So I'm not sure why you can't grasp that LPCM is absolutely the worst thing you could want...

[darkedgex]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

Both DTHD and DTS-MA are converted to PCM for playback, so no they can't sound better if the same bit depth/sampling is used for both tracks.

Right, I never said it sounded better...

DTHD and DTS-MA's advantage over PCM is on storage requirements only. That saved space might not be used for video, but to add other languages in HD, or PIP, etc...

Yes, that is one possibility, I'm just saying on a packed disk I'd rather have them using Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio than simply throwing the LPCM on there. Really, if I had my way, they'd never use LPCM unless the video was so short it was already at max bitrate for its entire duration.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Bango

I just bought a Harman Kardon AVR 245 at a garage sale for $100...so building a surround sound for my bedroom...anybody know if this model does not support hdmi AUDIO switching? I'm able to get video through it...just not audio for some reason...

I just checked the 245's manual . . . sorry, but no audio processing for HDMI.

Originally Posted by darkedgex

Really, if I had my way, they'd never use LPCM unless the video was so short it was already at max bitrate for its entire duration.

Yeah, those Pirates discs and Casino Royale suck

[Anhslaught]

wow, more confusion to me. I always thought PCM was old technology and was inferior.lol

And now I'm reading that its actually better than all these new HD sounds. :-p



Riddle me this. who is afraid of the big black bat? haha kidding...
No serious, whats the best sound quality possible right now?
If possible, list from best to worst that the PS3 or any bluray player supports right now.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Anhslaught

wow, more confusion to me. I always thought PCM was old technology and was inferior.lol

And now I'm reading that its actually better than all these new HD sounds. :-p



Riddle me this. who is afraid of the big black bat? haha kidding...
No serious, whats the best sound quality possible right now?
If possible, list from best to worst that the PS3 or any bluray player supports right now.

Theoretically PCM would be the best since it is a raw, uncompressed soundtrack.

Also theoretically, TrueHD and DTS HDMA are the same as PCM, since they are compressed in a way that preserves the integrity of the original PCM track. Once these files are "unzipped" they should, again theoretically, be the same as the PCM track.

Personally . . . I'll take PCM because it's unaltered in any way. To me, that's the best way to go.

[darkedgex]

Originally Posted by BStecke

Yeah, those Pirates discs and Casino Royale suck

They could have been better I'm sure. No video codec is lossless, so any bits wasted (as with LPCM) means some detail, no matter how insignificant, is lost. I bought in to BD because I wanted no compromises (HD DVD), I'd hate to think Blu-ray won and that we'd now be compromising on LPCM because people refuse to upgrade their AVRs or buy a player that can decode the advanced codecs.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

is storage really a concern for blu-ray??? i mean how many movies have come within 5GB of hitting 50GB???? Isn't this issue more about bandwith than anything, which dropping PCM is only worth it to 1. Add a PiP track or 2. Increase video bandwith.

Depends on what the studio wants to put in that 50GB space. If they want to offer 7 different HD soundtracks for different languages, for example, PCM's space requirement makes storage capacity a problem more than bandwidth. They know they have the bandwidth to maximize audio AND video. It's more about what else they would want to offer to consumers worldwide.

Bandwidth is the number one issue and was the main reason I chose Blu-Ray over HD DVD. If it was up to me, I would maximize the video encode and only allow for a single 24/48 PCM track....I don't care about extras, PiP or other languages. But I am very sure the rest of the non-English speaking world would not be happy with only an English soundtrack.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by darkedgex

Right, I never said it sounded better...

Ah, I see what you meant now...

Originally Posted by darkedgex

Yes, that is one possibility, I'm just saying on a packed disk I'd rather have them using Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio than simply throwing the LPCM on there. Really, if I had my way, they'd never use LPCM unless the video was so short it was already at max bitrate for its entire duration.

I have the opposite view - drop the other junk so the disc has space for LPCM! I have no use for PiP or extras. But I completely understand why a studio would want to offer multiple HD audio tracks....so DTHD or DTS-MA are both useful and great HD codecs.

I people really want the extras...throw them on a separate disc.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by darkedgex

They could have been better I'm sure. No video codec is lossless, so any bits wasted (as with LPCM) means some detail, no matter how insignificant, is lost. I bought in to BD because I wanted no compromises (HD DVD), I'd hate to think Blu-ray won and that we'd now be compromising on LPCM because people refuse to upgrade their AVRs or buy a player that can decode the advanced codecs.

LPCM is not a compromise. Blu-Ray has dedicated bandwidth for video and audio, so LPCM will not interfere with the video encode so long as the storage space permits.

If a video encode at max. bandwidth takes up 35GB, for example, adding an DTS-MA or DTHD track will not help that video encode at all as it is maxed out.

Adding LPCM to that same encode will not degrade it at all. The video will look the same for both.