How Much Better Can Audio Get?

[WriteSimply]

Sony doesn't sell SDDS decoders anymore. They phased it out. The encoders are still around.


fuad

[Ascended_Saiyan]

I thought movie theaters don't come close to the sound we receive from lossless audio. They just have more channels on some movies from what I hear. It's rare for me to see a theater that is regularly providing DTS sound for movies.

[red_5ive]

How about 11.2?

Yamaha RX-Z11

Sure, the additional 4 channels are proprietary Yamaha DSP, but this is one time where I actually loved the DSP when normally I can do without it. 300 sounded amazing.

[Bobby Henderson]

I thought movie theaters don't come close to the sound we receive from lossless audio. They just have more channels on some movies from what I hear.

Both of those ideas are not accurate.

The vast majority of movie audio tracks played in commercial theaters have 5.1 channels. Even Dolby Digital Surround EX in movie theaters is still just 5.1. It is not a true 6.1 format. The only exception to this is rare SDDS-8 audio tracks and certain audio tracks for large format/special venue movie theaters. Discrete 6.1 and 7.1 audio tracks lately have been unique to DVD and Blu-ray respectively.

On the matter of uncompressed audio, commercial movie theaters do have the capability of delivering it.

All digital cinema installations typically play movie audio in uncompressed 24-bit LPCM 5.1. 35mm film-based systems coupled with the DTS XD-10 processor can also deliver uncompressed LPCM (but such instances have been rare). Digital cinema systems can potentially play larger channel layouts like 7.1, but so far have not done that. You have the issue that the vast majority of all theatrical audio mixes are just 5.1. Then you have the additional problem that the vast majority of all commercial movie theater sound systems are only set up for 5.1.

How about 11.2?

That's about as useful as breasts on a bull.

When it comes to actual number of audio channels, the channel layout of recorded audio on the disc or film print is the only thing to go by. The number of amplifiers doesn't change that at all. 5.1 audio is still only 5.1 even if it is duped across 11.2 channels of amplification.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

a receiver that does dts-hd ma, truehd, pcm, and supports 7.1. and some mid to upper quality speakers. ill probably get a standalone bd player too, unless PS3 gets a nice update.

Since it's so Subjective...... what are you considering "mid to upper quality speakers" ??? and For a receiver, if you're not going separates, you should look into a high quality receiver, however, it will more than likely be the first piece of equipment to become obsolute on you nonetheless.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

a receiver that does dts-hd ma, truehd, pcm, and supports 7.1. and some mid to upper quality speakers. ill probably get a standalone bd player too, unless PS3 gets a nice update.

If you're seriously considering high end, forget about getting a receiver and go with separates. Check out the Lexicon MC-12 HD processor and ZX-7 amp, or for slightly saner prices, check out the Anthem D2 processor and P5 amp.

As for speakers, how much room do you have? Assuming you have the room, HP's (of The Absolute Sound fame) "Super Maggie" system might be for you. Four Magneplaner MG20.1 front and surrounds, a pair of Maggie center speakers, and five Nola Thunderbolt subs.

What sort of budget are you working with?

[richteer]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Also with the exception of no hiss, crackle and pops, I think the better SACD and DVD-Audio discs are equally as good as vinyl and they can add several more channels of audio.

*Snort* Hiss, crackle, and pops are for people who don't know how to look after and treat their records! I have records that are 20+ years old, and are as silent as the day I bought them.

Your point about several more channels is, however, irrefutable! :-)

[SDon1969]

I am clueless when it comes to hi-def audio, it has taken me long enough to get up to speed on hi-def video, nevermind audio! But I am glad I joined this forum because it is teaching me a lot. I wish I had joined before I replaced my receiver, I got one of those home theaters in a box (Sony), so now all I can get is regular old DD or DTS 5.1. No PCM, TrueHD or DTS-MA for me. I should have done better homework but since my old receiver broke I needed a quickie replacement. Oh well, I'll do it correctly next time.

[ryoohki]

It depends on the receiver too. My last receiver was a 399$ Yamaha with MultiCh In. While PCM was good, they were not a 'In you're face' difference between both.

When i update to my Denon 3808ci all HDMI, the difference between DD and PCM(or DTSHD MA and TrueHD since i bitstream) is really evident now... DD sound compressed and less alive..

[red_5ive]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

That's about as useful as breasts on a bull.

When it comes to actual number of audio channels, the channel layout of recorded audio on the disc or film print is the only thing to go by. The number of amplifiers doesn't change that at all. 5.1 audio is still only 5.1 even if it is duped across 11.2 channels of amplification.

Obviously, and I did specify it was proprietary DSP and thus is not part of true 5.1 spec. I really can't stand DSPs that a lot of receivers offer and even prefer to listen to pure or direct 5.1 (with no additional processing). I hate DSP's because they drown out and make a mess of the overall 5.1 mix. BUT, to answer the question "How much better can it get", the RX-Z11 really does push overall multi-ch sound to the limit. It is the ONE time where I actually do understand what Yamaha is trying to accomplish with their DSP technology.

[bwillcox]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

...
That's about as useful as breasts on a bull.
...

Purely subjective. I enjoy the additional DSP channels of my RX-Z11.

[wem003]

Originally Posted by richteer

If you're seriously considering high end, forget about getting a receiver and go with separates. Check out the Lexicon MC-12 HD processor and ZX-7 amp, or for slightly saner prices, check out the Anthem D2 processor and P5 amp.

As for speakers, how much room do you have? Assuming you have the room, HP's (of The Absolute Sound fame) "Super Maggie" system might be for you. Four Magneplaner MG20.1 front and surrounds, a pair of Maggie center speakers, and five Nola Thunderbolt subs.

What sort of budget are you working with?

Great choices but if he's looking for a receiver - not sure $10k just for the processor and amp is in range.

How do you like the Magnepans? I've seen them at my local store, but my salesman has me in love with Aerials now.

[Bobby Henderson]

Purely subjective. I enjoy the additional DSP channels of my RX-Z11.

It's not subjective. Additional, arguably superfluous channels of amplification don't make a movie sound track actually have more channels of audio. Unfortunately, LOTS of people who don't know any better will see that "11.2" hokum and suddenly believe movies are mixed and recorded in 11.2 channel format. It's a bunch of crap.

The only practical purpose I see in a receiver having that many built in amplifiers is supplying 5.1 audio playback from two different sources out to two different rooms at the same time. Hopefully that high priced receiver can actually do that trick. Otherwise I think all those extra amplification channels is a big waste of money.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by richteer

*Snort* Hiss, crackle, and pops are for people who don't know how to look after and treat their records! I have records that are 20+ years old, and are as silent as the day I bought them.

Your point about several more channels is, however, irrefutable! :-)

When I was 5 years old and my brother was 3, sometime around 1978, my father came home to find many of his Bob Dylan vinyl's out of their sleeves and being pushed around the carpet whilst we pretended they were trains.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

The only practical purpose I see in a receiver having that many built in amplifiers is supplying 5.1 audio playback from two different sources out to two different rooms at the same time. Hopefully that high priced receiver can actually do that trick. Otherwise I think all those extra amplification channels is a big waste of money.

I believe it can, but it can also bi-amp an entire 5.1 system too, which is pretty cool.

In addition the RX-Z11 is one of the few a/v receivers avaliable with the DSD1792 DAC chipset, allowing for 132 dB of dynamic range. It is probably a pretty sweet receiver when being used for direct DSD to analog conversion from an SACD transport.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

When I was 5 years old and my brother was 3, sometime around 1978, my father came home to find many of his Bob Dylan vinyl's out of their sleeves and being pushed around the carpet whilst we pretended they were trains.

Wow, and you lived to tell the tale?!

[richteer]

Originally Posted by wem003

Great choices but if he's looking for a receiver - not sure $10k just for the processor and amp is in range.

How do you like the Magnepans? I've seen them at my local store, but my salesman has me in love with Aerials now.

I haven't heard Maggies in a long time, but the last time I heard them I thought they sounded great. I'm trying to convince the boss to let me save up for a pair of MG20.1s, but she says I can't have any speaker that's taller than her. Given that she's only 5'3, that's kinda limiting!

One speaker she has OKed from a size point of view is the Martin Logan Summit, so that's high on my list of speakers to audition.

[mfanelli81]

OK.....I was thinking(its definite) of updating my receiver, so I can accept the HD sound(currently no HDMIs on receiver). My TV has the old connection type of 1.1....... Does it even matter the version of HDMI connection on the back of the TV if ur running everything through the receiver? It seems like to me that the version of the connection wouldn't really matter unless u were using ur TV speakers as ur sound. Let me know if I'm way off.....

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Both of those ideas are not accurate.

The vast majority of movie audio tracks played in commercial theaters have 5.1 channels. Even Dolby Digital Surround EX in movie theaters is still just 5.1. It is not a true 6.1 format. The only exception to this is rare SDDS-8 audio tracks and certain audio tracks for large format/special venue movie theaters. Discrete 6.1 and 7.1 audio tracks lately have been unique to DVD and Blu-ray respectively.

On the matter of uncompressed audio, commercial movie theaters do have the capability of delivering it.

All digital cinema installations typically play movie audio in uncompressed 24-bit LPCM 5.1. 35mm film-based systems coupled with the DTS XD-10 processor can also deliver uncompressed LPCM (but such instances have been rare). Digital cinema systems can potentially play larger channel layouts like 7.1, but so far have not done that. You have the issue that the vast majority of all theatrical audio mixes are just 5.1. Then you have the additional problem that the vast majority of all commercial movie theater sound systems are only set up for 5.1.

That sounds like, from what I read, that what I heard was mostly right. Instead of ALL theaters not having lossless audio, it is ALMOST all (except digital cinemas...which are few and far between even in large cities like Atlanta). And, cinemas having more channels on SOME movies seems to be very correct (SDDS as you said).

You have given great additional information, though. Thanks!

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by mfanelli81

OK.....I was thinking(its definite) of updating my receiver, so I can accept the HD sound(currently no HDMIs on receiver). My TV has the old connection type of 1.1....... Does it even matter the version of HDMI connection on the back of the TV if ur running everything through the receiver? It seems like to me that the version of the connection wouldn't really matter unless u were using ur TV speakers as ur sound. Let me know if I'm way off.....

It matters depending on what you want to do. It definitely doesn't matter for picture or sound quality, if your TV only has HDMI 1.1. Therefore, your other components don't NEED to be beyond HDMI 1.1.

However, if your BD player has HDMI 1.3, you may or may not want to invest in a A/V receiver that has HDMI 1.3 purely from a bitstreaming (sending the audio to be decoded in the receiver instead of internally...like the PS3) perspective.

If you own a standalone BD player, an HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver would be preferrable to unlock the hi-res audio (since it does not decode those internally in most players).

HDMI 1.3 on the back of your TV would allow to use Deep Color (when available via BD and when specified on the TV itself). It expands the color range of your TV.