Finally calibrated my TV

[Suntory_Times]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

As for your other statement, sure, you can live with wrong television settings if you wish...but is that the reason you bought the TV? If I was a salesperson who came up to you as you were admiring a television and told you that image is completely wrong...would you buy it? More than likely not. People who state what you have are usually settling and usually have no reference for a calibrated image. If you did, you would likely not have said what you did. Seeing is believing I guess.

Well, i'm an odd cookie here, in that no one sold me my projector so to speak. I built it myself (though I didn't do the initial case work, but have since moddified it significantly). I personally do prefer a calibrated set (and have done so using such items as hd basics on blu ray, and have also used several proffesionally calibrated sets and have appreciated them). I also know several people who have prefered there set calibrated entirely by eye whilst pausing the film etc, I personally haven't ever been able to get a good result when I have tried this myself as I find whilst you may get very nice results in some areas, it will leave significant faults in other areas.

[Disky76]

Originally Posted by liquidice

forsberg, I just looked at your pics. Not to get off subject, but you've got to lower your center channel! I'm sure with most movies it doesn't matter that it's blocking the tv, but just think about the IMAX scenes in Dark Knight! Sorry, totally off subject. Maybe you could mount to wall above tv?

His center channel looks fine. It doesn't look like its blocking the picture.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

I recommend recalibration at least annually. The main reason, is either bulb or pixel aging. This will cause a shift in the grayscale and color. Therefore, you have to correct for it.

As for your other statement, sure, you can live with wrong television settings if you wish...but is that the reason you bought the TV? If I was a salesperson who came up to you as you were admiring a television and told you that image is completely wrong...would you buy it? More than likely not. People who state what you have are usually settling and usually have no reference for a calibrated image. If you did, you would likely not have said what you did. Seeing is believing I guess.

You're actually trying to tell people that they need to spend $300 to $400 a year or they'll have "wrong television settings"?

Unreal.

[Betamax]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

You're actually trying to tell people that they need to spend $300 to $400 a year or they'll have "wrong television settings"?

Unreal.

Blu Dog,
Unfortunately when dealing with any type of audio or video discussion and telling someone what they are seeing or hearing is "wrong", I understand how some people can be a little put out. The short explanation to this is yes, In tv display calibration there is a right and wrong. Now, you MUST take personal preference or what one may think "looks good" and toss that out. There actually is a correct color for Red, Blue, Green..etc. and you do in fact need a meter to acurately dial those colors in. The better the meter, usually, the more acurate results you'll have. Using a blue filter and a dvd setup disc might get you in the ballpark, but not exact. Sometimes ballpark is good enough for some people and thats great, but that means it still wont be correct. Sometimes there are limitations of the display and you cant get 100 percent correct, but you'll still get closer with a pro setup than with your eye or a blue filter and a disc. The whole idea of a pro calibration is to give you 100 percent capability of "your" display. Depending on ones viewing habits and the type of display your viewing than absolutley an annual setup would be necessary. Some people can go for years without another setup. Again, it comes down to just how acurate do you want your panel to look.

[dominica]

I good place to start is the AVS forums. The included link has great info and a free calibrations disc for your TV & Blu-Ray.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496


"
INTRODUCTION
This project aims to provide a free set of calibration patterns for high definition (HD) video players. You will find downloads here to create discs for Blu-ray and HD DVD players, a version with MP4 1080p video for computers or other compatible devices, and PDFs with basic instructions for the patterns. The Blu-ray and HD DVD discs can be burned to DVD media, but they are intended only for HD players. These calibration patterns are not intended for standard DVD players, and they are not expected to calibrate for Rec. 601 video used in commercial DVDs. The patterns are meant only to calibrate for Rec. 709 encoded HD video, such as commercial Blu-rays or HD DVDs.

Our primary intent is to offer HD video patterns for calibrating digital displays (LCD, Plasma, DLP, D-ILA, SXRD). That means there are no audio portions or patterns specifically meant for analog TVs (CRT), which can be found on Digital Video Essentials and Avia discs. The patterns provided have simply been divided into sections for different tasks, and each section is made up of a number of video patterns. The Blu-ray and HD DVD discs allow you to select sections from the menus, and the video clips in each section can be navigated by chapter skipping. The Basic Settings, Miscellaneous Patterns, and Resolution sections are intended to be useful in setting user controls for your electronics with no test equipment, except possibly a color filter. The remaining sections are meant for taking measurements from the display, with a colorimeter or spectroradiometer, using software like ColorHCFR or CalMAN. The Related Links area of this post will take you to more information about measurements, and further details about using the patterns are covered in the attached PDF files."

[Blu-ray Fanatic]

Has anyone calibrated a 32" Sharp Aquos 1080p 10,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio (Model number: LC-32D62U). If so if you're nice enough, hook me up with a freebie on how to calibrate it without me having to buy a disc or paying a professional

[SierraMikeBravo]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

You're actually trying to tell people that they need to spend $300 to $400 a year or they'll have "wrong television settings"?

Unreal.

No. Most calibrators, inlcuding myself, do not charge the same amount for a revisit. Often $100 to $150 to retweak the TV...depending on how far you need to travel. Often times, after customers watch me perform the calibration and I explain what I am doing, they feel confident to do it themselves and purchase the equipment to do so. As I said, I have yet to run into a customer who was not very satisfied after the calibration was complete. There is more to calibration than just taking readings and making adjustments. We also educate...something your local Best Buy won't do, and ensure the entire video chain correctly displays an accurate image and preserving image fidelity. If a calibrator doesn't spend 3 to 5 hours calibrating your video chain, then there is a disservice. Before making accusations, I suggest you ask questions before jumping to conclusions.

[Blu-ray Fanatic]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

No. Most calibrators, inlcuding myself, do not charge the same amount for a revisit. Often $100 to $150 to retweak the TV...depending on how far you need to travel. Often times, after customers watch me perform the calibration and I explain what I am doing, they feel confident to do it themselves and purchase the equipment to do so. As I said, I have yet to run into a customer who was not very satisfied after the calibration was complete. There is more to calibration than just taking readings and making adjustments. We also educate...something your local Best Buy won't do, and ensure the entire video chain correctly displays an accurate image and preserving image fidelity. If a calibrator doesn't spend 3 to 5 hours calibrating your video chain, then there is a disservice. Before making accusations, I suggest you ask questions before jumping to conclusions.

So what area are you from? Your service would be appreciated because you show initiative. I've had mine for almost two years and still haven't calibrated it. How much do you charge?

[philnopatiences]

Just had my 2 TVs ISF calibrated for $300, (40" Mits. and 60" Sony LCDS). They are SO NOT busy now because of the economy. 2 TVs for the price of 1<><>

[SierraMikeBravo]

Originally Posted by Blu-ray Fanatic

So what area are you from? Your service would be appreciated because you show initiative. I've had mine for almost two years and still haven't calibrated it. How much do you charge?

Hi Blu-ray

I am actually in Kansas and am a certified THX Video Calibrator. I am assuming by Alamo City, you are in San Antonio? I usually don't make it quite that far south, but if there are enough people (3 to 4) I could make a trip down there.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

No. Most calibrators, inlcuding myself, do not charge the same amount for a revisit. Often $100 to $150 to retweak the TV...depending on how far you need to travel. Often times, after customers watch me perform the calibration and I explain what I am doing, they feel confident to do it themselves and purchase the equipment to do so. As I said, I have yet to run into a customer who was not very satisfied after the calibration was complete. There is more to calibration than just taking readings and making adjustments. We also educate...something your local Best Buy won't do, and ensure the entire video chain correctly displays an accurate image and preserving image fidelity. If a calibrator doesn't spend 3 to 5 hours calibrating your video chain, then there is a disservice. Before making accusations, I suggest you ask questions before jumping to conclusions.

I've been down this road on calibration before, so I'm not going to rehash my skepticism. As someone who began my career in electronics calibrating high powered radar systems on regular schedules, I'm aware of the value of calibrating delicate electronics, the methods used, and the level of results obtained.

As someone who owns over $15K in high definition televisions, and perhaps more in audio and computer equipment connected to them, I've asked plenty of questions, and didn't jump to conclusions before obtaining this stuff.

I see a trend in this calibration discussion. It starts with a baseline assumption - a conclusion "jumped to" - that all video settings are wrong from the factory. The bigger jump is that as a result, this variance from specified baseline is enough to make the equipment virtually useless for clean display of data playback.

From this baseline, a business - roadshow calibration - has been built. Not only are owners given the impression that their purchase is without value unless this service is provided; the service must be continually provided, with an original cost of anywhere from 10% to 25% of the purchase cost of the equipment, but a renewal fee of up to 10% of the purchase cost of the equipment on an annual basis, for additional service.

Without any judgement of the value of this service, I find this to be a stunning indictment on the manufacturers of the gear. I also question the accuracy of this indictment across the board, for all manufacturers. Finally, as someone working in the IT industry, it's interesting that the usual sales methods for providing this service run along these lines:

1. You spent a bunch of money on your hardware. Why are you too cheap to get full value from it? (This is the "yer a cheapskate" argument.)
2. You are definitely using a piece of equipment that was never correctly built. (This is the classic "I must lay my hands on it for it to work" argument, used by the very best car dealers to sell maintenance agreements.)
3. Constant recital of spectacular, unrealistic improvements in quality only after the service has been provided, usually from people anxious to justify the purchase of the service. (This is usually from people anxious to provide self-justification for a service that, in their hearts, they have questions about the value of; they will say that anyone who doesn't do the same is "looking at a piece of junk" or whatever, to get more lemmings to join them going over the cliff.)

I don't begrudge a person turning a buck on their expertise; further, I have no doubts that professional calibration - something where certification of competence is cloudy, at best - has actually benefitted customers purchasing the service. The fact is simple: No one can predict the level of calibration drift on any given piece of equipment, let alone the variations in equipment type by manufacturer, model, and year built. Playing it safe requires a regularly scheduled maintenance cycle, which is very expensive, and may be needed either far more or far less often than is actually done.

In prior posts, I've discussed the variances that go along with optimal video performance - and it's a lot more that fiddling with the system menu. Certainly, having a professional review not only the display, but all connections and video sources going to it, the environment in which it is used, and viewer preferences, cannot help but be a good thing. If this service is appreciated by the customer, it's all good.

What I question, given my technical background and video/audio inventory, is why people - primarily newbies - are being told that their purchases are not complete until this "laying on of hands" is done. Nervous nellies with small budgets shy away from adoption of good gear when told such things, for obvious reasons. Nervous nellies with big budgets can spend whatever they like, on whatever schedule they prefer, but I find the loudmouths among them eagerly spitting on the small budget guys for not being able to shell out the money that they should, in their minds.

Professional calibration isn't a requirement, or even necessarily a need; it's a videophile preference, with real returns limited on a practical basis to those buying $7,000 Kuro TV's, $2,000 Blu-players, and who spend gobs on Monster Cable for "peace of mind". Those with less lofty budgets and taste may also do it, and be happy they did, but my patience with the mantra that pro calibration is a requirement ended some time ago.

Once someone - anyone, without a financial dog in this fight - can clearly state expected drift in baseline settings, based on use and manufacturer, and the periodicity of professional calibration required, I'll take the whole topic more seriously.

Until then, I will dismiss any other claims with one word: Unreal. I have no interest in jumping to conclusions, as conclusions arrived at without facts usually lie broken and burning at the bottom of a tall stack of dollar bills.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Betamax

Blu Dog,
Unfortunately when dealing with any type of audio or video discussion and telling someone what they are seeing or hearing is "wrong", I understand how some people can be a little put out. The short explanation to this is yes, In tv display calibration there is a right and wrong. Now, you MUST take personal preference or what one may think "looks good" and toss that out. There actually is a correct color for Red, Blue, Green..etc. and you do in fact need a meter to acurately dial those colors in. The better the meter, usually, the more acurate results you'll have. Using a blue filter and a dvd setup disc might get you in the ballpark, but not exact. Sometimes ballpark is good enough for some people and thats great, but that means it still wont be correct. Sometimes there are limitations of the display and you cant get 100 percent correct, but you'll still get closer with a pro setup than with your eye or a blue filter and a disc. The whole idea of a pro calibration is to give you 100 percent capability of "your" display. Depending on ones viewing habits and the type of display your viewing than absolutley an annual setup would be necessary. Some people can go for years without another setup. Again, it comes down to just how acurate do you want your panel to look.

I hear you. I understand the value, the need, and the technical; my question is about the universality of it.

No insult intended to professionals doing this work, but I have serious doubts that everyone, bar none, actually needs it.

My question was really not about initial calibration; it was about periodic calibration.

The more answers I get, the more it sounds like feng shui, and not technical support.

[SierraMikeBravo]

Blu-daog,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion differs, and if mine does, you should not criticize me or others who believe it to be a good value...regardless of the cost. Now, your basic claim is that calibration is not necessary. Let me rebut that statement. I am sure you have gone to Best Buy or another retailer and saw the numerous displays plastered on the wall. Not ONE of those displays look like the other ones...in numerous ways...but they essentially should. That's the point. Manufacturers learned a long time ago, what sells a Tv is brightness! So, they crank up the contrast (and as a result wreaks havoc on the brightness), but they can only turn that up so far before it becomes objectionable. This leads to clipping of the whites (usually, one of the colors runs out...more than likely red). Now, they also know through scientific research that people perceive things as brighter when some blue is added. That is exactly what they do, they add blue to the grayscale. Ever wonder why blue headlights seem brighter and why they add those little specks of blue to laundry detergent? Because we see white mixed with blue as a brighter shade of white. Now, people will start to look dead when they add too much blue, so they often will go into the color decoder and turn up the red a bit to counteract the effect of blue on skin tones. Voila! A brighter picture that does not look too bad...good enough anyway to get it out of the store. Manufacturers honestly don't give a rats patooty about how the image looks in your house. They care about selling it. They have to grab your attention while competing with other displays next to it and flourescent overhead lights. So, they turn up the "blue" brightness to attract a moth to the flame...you. In order to get thew television back to where it is supposed to be, you have to correct for these marketing ploys. Believe me, the engineers who deisgned the TV and the marketers have two different agendas. The marketers always win as that is the bottom line...money; selling the TV. That is why you often find placebo controls on TV's. The marketer said Manufacturer X has this function...we need that, too! The engineers say "we don't need that!"...guess who wins. The engineers employ it, but it often doesn't work...or it doesn't work the way it is supposed to.

So, the bottom line is, that is what calibration is all about. Bringing the TV back in line to ATSC/NTSC specifications...or as close as it can get given the limiting controls on most consumer displays. Calibrations is not fooey magic...just take a look on most professional displays used in broadcast studios. They have a lot more controls to calibrate the television than most consumer displays do. If it is horse hockey, why do they come equipped with these controls? Broadcast engineers should know better...right? Movie theater DLP prjectors are also calibrated when installed and are done every so often. Bulbs from movie house projectors are replaced every 1000 hours...why is that? Because of bulb dimming and aging from use...which changes the way the colors appear on screen. Even the screen can change the way colors look, so you have to calibrate a projector to the screen. There are numerous other examples I can share...but I think you get the point.

Anyway, my $.02. You can take or leave it. Your choice, and this is not the first time I have debated with a skeptic...there is one in every business. How do you feel about audio calibration?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

Blu-daog,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion differs, and if mine does, you should not criticize me or others who believe it to be a good value...regardless of the cost.

Disagreement is not necessarily criticism. Skepticism is not the same as being uninformed, either.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

Now, your basic claim is that calibration is not necessary. Let me rebut that statement.

First, let me make my own claims. I didn't say it wasn't necessary; I define it as an adjustment, which I think is necessary. The frequency of adjustment is our bone of contention, it appears. Anyway, that's where my contribution to this thread started.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

I am sure you have gone to Best Buy or another retailer and saw the numerous displays plastered on the wall. Not ONE of those displays look like the other ones...in numerous ways...but they essentially should. That's the point. Manufacturers learned a long time ago, what sells a Tv is brightness! So, they crank up the contrast (and as a result wreaks havoc on the brightness), but they can only turn that up so far before it becomes objectionable. This leads to clipping of the whites (usually, one of the colors runs out...more than likely red).

(Interesting and informative detail snipped for the sake of brevity)

So, the bottom line is, that is what calibration is all about. Bringing the TV back in line to ATSC/NTSC specifications...or as close as it can get given the limiting controls on most consumer displays. Calibrations is not fooey magic...just take a look on most professional displays used in broadcast studios. They have a lot more controls to calibrate the television than most consumer displays do. If it is horse hockey, why do they come equipped with these controls?

Pull back on the horse hockey nozzle, I'm sure that calibration is a fine thing, etc. etc. I also think that the need for system menu level calibration is astoundingly overemphasized, as it shouldn't take a specialized consultant to pull an off the shelf unit out of "torch mode", for example.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

Broadcast engineers should know better...right? Movie theater DLP prjectors are also calibrated when installed and are done every so often. Bulbs from movie house projectors are replaced every 1000 hours...why is that? Because of bulb dimming and aging from use...which changes the way the colors appear on screen. Even the screen can change the way colors look, so you have to calibrate a projector to the screen. There are numerous other examples I can share...but I think you get the point.

Of course, but I'm afraid you don't get mine. Calibration should be scheduled, based on the device, if it's that important. Further, setting video to a baseline is preferable, but not vital. I'm sure that videophiles eager to view things at the optimum would have no problem purchasing this service, perhaps once every three months or so; I know people who have their luxury sports cars detailed and serviced at such intervals, and what they do is fine by me. I have every mechanical item on my cars - very taut sports models - treated this way, at predefined or indicated intervals.

I don't hear these intervals defined for calibration of high definition televisions.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo

Anyway, my $.02. You can take or leave it. Your choice, and this is not the first time I have debated with a skeptic...there is one in every business. How do you feel about audio calibration?

The same way I do about video calibration; it's subjective, prone to variances from the source of the audio, and can change with myriad environmental alterations. I use the MCACC devices for my Pioneer receivers, and JL Audio subwoofer; nice for a baseline, but I don't accept the data as Holy Writ.

You're looking for a skeptic that doesn't understand baseline calibration. You need to keep looking. I"m looking for value, industry standard support from manufacturers, and my main beef is with the manufacturers themselves.

[Driver_King]

There is no question that calibration offers a significant improvement in perceived picture quality over standard settings. I got some of the most accurate settings available offline for a friends' TV to calibrate. I let him adjust it to how he liked it and then went to calibrate it all. After I was done, the black detail was much better, the color was natural, there was more depth to the picture, ect. He noticed the difference immediately. He knows virtually just about nothing about electronics by the way.

[crackinhedz]

My dad had his Pioneer Kuro 6020 calibrated...he's the kind of guy who likes the 'manufacturer' settings, so I had to twist his arm to get him to even spend money on it. He's cheap. Out of the box he was in love with his new TV.

But he was really impressed after the calibration. He didn't complain not once about spending money for a possible improvement...so it must have satisfied and been worth the $350.

I have his before and after data, and the color decoding 'before' was pretty far off. I was quite surprised coming from a Pioneer. Maybe to the human eye it wasn't very noticeable, but after calibration the numbers were more on par although not 100%. More like 99%.

[richieb1971]

I'm in the camp that says the companies that make the TV's are at fault.

But then again TV companies can't exactly built to a perfect science, but it would be nice if they offered a calibration as an option when buying it.

I like my TV, however, when the screen is completely dark some bits are lighter than others. A calibration apparently sorts this out, but why is it like that in the first place?

[Suntory_Times]

Originally Posted by richieb1971

I'm in the camp that says the companies that make the TV's are at fault.

But then again TV companies can't exactly built to a perfect science, but it would be nice if they offered a calibration as an option when buying it.

I like my TV, however, when the screen is completely dark some bits are lighter than others. A calibration apparently sorts this out, but why is it like that in the first place?

I t depends, are you talking about on menus are within a film or within a film itself. If it's within a film (that has been shot on film), it is highly unlikely to not get variances in the picture. Many films also have belmishes, scrathes etc that result from the print they where transferred from.

[crobb666]

I too am a THX Video Calibrator, and I liken buying a high-def tv and not having it calibrated to buying a Ferrari and putting regular in the tank. You are not realizing the full potential of the product. Furthermore if you don't take that Ferrari in for tune-ups, oil changes, brake jobs, etc, it will not last you as long and your initail investment will be wasted by not keeping up on your maintenance costs. If you are happy with that conclusion and don't care about high performance throughout the life of your TV then maybe calibration is not for you.

[William H Pratt]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

It is usually around $250-$300. It does depend. However, if you are impressed now, you should see the set after it's been professionally calibrated....wow!

I had my 111FD calibrated by Chad Billheimer. The PQ is amazing!!!