El Cid (1961)

[eChopper]

dvd BEAVER has the screencaps up of the El Cid Blu Ray

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDRev...dvd_review.htm

to quote:

"The higher resolution has certainly benefitted the image and the softness is probably inherent in the, almost 50-year old, print"

the softness came from the bumbling efforts of the "restorers" not the camera negative

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by eChopper

dvd BEAVER has the screencaps up of the El Cid Blu Ray

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDRev...dvd_review.htm

to quote:

"The higher resolution has certainly benefitted the image and the softness is probably inherent in the, almost 50-year old, print"

the softness came from the bumbling efforts of the "restorers" not the camera negative

It is a shame that the quality of the source material (which by the way is a 35mm film print and not the negative) is wrongfully used as a scapegoat for the lackluster job that was done in producing the master.

Ironcially when the El Cid master was shown theatrically last year the digital projection technology that was used were blamed at least partly for the "out of focus" picture

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by TheVid54

I've seen all the Bronston biggies in 70mm and they were not as generally crisp as most when originally shown (KING OF KINGS had the best quality) - some 70mm blowups (like BECKET and HAWAII) looked generally better.

I watched a 1964 release print of Fall of the Roman Empire on Sunday at a film festival and it was one of the best looking AND crisp 70mm prints I have seen and I have seen most of the productions that are considered to look very good (Lawrence of Arabia, Patton, Cleopatra, The Bible and others).

No blowup could come close to this.

The print had resolution that went well beyond what can be resolved on a very good Blu-Ray and completely and utterly destroys the subpar Blu-Ray in that regard.

Originally Posted by TheVid54

these blu-rays look about as good as the HD-DVD of SPARTACUS, and offer up a pretty terrific home theater presentation for 65mm images of the time.

I would rather word it as follows: These Blu-Rays look about as bad as the HD-DVD of Spartacus and offer up a subpar home theater presentation for two of the best looking feature films of their time. Fans of both movies will still want to own these Blu-Rays as despite their shortcomings they offer a sizable improvement over their DVD equivalents.

[garyrc]

The experience of various posters is so different that I have concluded that the quality of 70 mm projection must have varied widely from theater to theater and city to city. Evidently, San Francisco was lucky. Almost every 70 mm print I saw was SUPERB, especially those shot in some big negative process like 65 mm or horizontal traveling double frame 35, as in Super Technirama 70. One of my friends called the ultra crispness an "etched quality." I always sat fairly close to the screen, and those that went with me were often members of our photography club. We were surprised to notice that 70mm movie projection often seemed to rival or even exceed the quality of large negative still photography, like 2 1/4, or even 4 x 5 -- we guessed that that was because movies present more than one sample (24/sec) and the brain connects the dots. A given piece of film grain in one frame will be followed by a piece of grain in a slightly different position relative to the underlying detail, therefore a given micro-detail may be better rendered in one frame than in the next, subject to being added up by the brain (?). We called this "seeing around the grain." Sure enough, if you freeze frame a projector, the frame gives the impression of being slightly less detailed than when the film is running. "Seeing around the grain" didn't seem to happen much in 35 mm, compared to 70 mm, which seemed to cross some kind of threshold of quality. Almost all of the 70mm films I saw in those days were sharper and more detailed than any Blu-ray I have seen, given similar sizes on the retina.

Ironically, the Bronston 70 mm epics were crisper than any, with EL CID as the sharpest of all (in San Francisco!). Yet, look at this different report:

[QUOTE=TheVid54;2265535] I've seen all the Bronston biggies in 70mm and they were not as generally crisp as most when originally shown (KING OF KINGS had the best quality) - some 70mm blowups (like BECKET and HAWAII) looked generally better.

In S.F., in 70 mm blowups of BECKET and HAWAII looked markedly inferior to CID and the other Bronstons.

This is close to the way I experienced FALL:

[QUOTE=Oliver K;2393296]I watched a 1964 release print of Fall of the Roman Empire on Sunday at a film festival and it was one of the best looking AND crisp 70mm prints I have seen and I have seen most of the productions that are considered to look very good (Lawrence of Arabia, Patton, Cleopatra, The Bible and others).

No blowup could come close to this.

The print had resolution that went well beyond what can be resolved on a very good Blu-Ray and completely and utterly destroys the subpar Blu-Ray in that regard.

QUOTE]

[Douglas R]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

I watched a 1964 release print of Fall of the Roman Empire on Sunday at a film festival and it was one of the best looking AND crisp 70mm prints I have seen and I have seen most of the productions that are considered to look very good (Lawrence of Arabia, Patton, Cleopatra, The Bible and others).

No blowup could come close to this.

The print had resolution that went well beyond what can be resolved on a very good Blu-Ray and completely and utterly destroys the subpar Blu-Ray in that regard.

I'm glad you were able to get to that showing Oliver. I can still remember being knocked out by the look of the film. Maybe that print was the same one I saw back in the 60s! If only the Blu-ray could look as good.....

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Douglas R

I'm glad you were able to get to that showing Oliver. I can still remember being knocked out by the look of the film. Maybe that print was the same one I saw back in the 60s! If only the Blu-ray could look as good.....

The forum romanum set is by far the most impressive set I have ever seen and what we can see on the Blu-Ray does not do justice to the seemingly infinite detail of those sets as I saw them in 70mm.

As for the print I am rather certain that I saw a different print as it did have dutch subtitles, but I prefer that to the dubbed version that was usually shown in Germany at the time.

[Shanester]

Can some tell me why the commentary track on El Cid is 3-4 mins ahead out what's actually on screen??

It's as if the track was recorded on a shorter version of the film or maybe it's has something to do with the "overture" in the beginning

I've listened to many commenataires over the years and this is the first time I've ever seen that. It's very strange and I had to stop listening after while it was just too distracting

Thankfully the movie audio track is just fine and in sync!

Any info would be appreciated

Cheers!!

[pro-bassoonist]

Good afternoon Shane,

(I received the PM).

Unfortunately, I don't have this disc with me at the moment to confirm whether or not there are any issues with the commentary. I am sorry I cannot be of any assistance this time.

Pro-B

[Shanester]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Good afternoon Shane,

(I received the PM).

Unfortunately, I don't have this disc with me at the moment to confirm whether or not there are any issues with the commentary. I am sorry I cannot be of any assistance this time.

Pro-B

no problem. keep me posted if you get any info

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Shanester

no problem. keep me posted if you get any info

It seems that the answer is simple: They just did a bad job with syncing the commentary. To my knowledge all the discs have that problem and it is obviously not considered to be enough of a problem to be fixed.

If you are really interested in the commentary track you might want to see if it is worth it to get the DVD version or at least to rent it but I found the praise for Mr. Bronston to be a bit too much after a short while - even the director Anthony Mann hardly gets any mention and that is just not appropriate imo.

Getting the DVD would also have the advantage to show you that while the Blu-Ray looks pretty bad it is still much better than the DVD of El Cid

[Shanester]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

It seems that the answer is simple: They just did a bad job with syncing the commentary. To my knowledge all the discs have that problem and it is obviously not considered to be enough of a problem to be fixed.

If you are really interested in the commentary track you might want to see if it is worth it to get the DVD version or at least to rent it but I found the praise for Mr. Bronston to be a bit too much after a short while - even the director Anthony Mann hardly gets any mention and that is just not appropriate imo.

Getting the DVD would also have the advantage to show you that while the Blu-Ray looks pretty bad it is still much better than the DVD of El Cid

Thanks for the info!

[therussian]

Hi guys,

I bought this disc but I am unable to play it! I have a region B player, I live in the EU.
Before firmware upgrade the disc didn't even started to play in the player (pioneer 51fd), now with the 1.65 firmware which was meant for "Avatar" blu ray the disc starts (only the warnings appear, and a studio logo), but after it says there's region problem.... What could be the problem?
Thanks a lot!Delete

[aloharich]

I have just preordered the Japanese El Cid Blu Ray which is Region A and releases in May. Does anyone have any details? Is it from same print as Japanese DVD or is it from the same master as the European Blu Rays?

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by aloharich

I have just preordered the Japanese El Cid Blu Ray which is Region A and releases in May. Does anyone have any details? Is it from same print as Japanese DVD or is it from the same master as the European Blu Rays?

While the Japanese DVD and the European DVD are not from the same master they could still go back to the same 35mm low contrast print.

When I see the work that Paramount performs on an 8-perf movie of similar stature (To Catch a Thief) it is depressing to see how little effort was made to bring El Cid to Blu-Ray and before that to DVD.

Please keep us posted though on how the Japanese Blu-Rays look, so far the UK version of El Cid is the best version out there with colors that look a bit less off than the German version.

[L.A. Guy]

Is this title being released soon? Noticed it was under preorders.

[#Darren]

Originally Posted by Shanester

Can some tell me why the commentary track on El Cid is 3-4 mins ahead out what's actually on screen??

It's as if the track was recorded on a shorter version of the film or maybe it's has something to do with the "overture" in the beginning

I've listened to many commenataires over the years and this is the first time I've ever seen that. It's very strange and I had to stop listening after while it was just too distracting

Thankfully the movie audio track is just fine and in sync!

Any info would be appreciated

Cheers!!

This problem is not present on the UK edition.

[Maggot]

Ok, who owns the rights to this in the States? It seems strange that a bunch of other regions have this but nothing for the us here in the US. Also, is it true that there was a 70mm print or even the negatives found after they had thought that they were lost forever, but that this was some time after the Miriam Collection DVD was released?

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Maggot

Ok, who owns the rights to this in the States? It seems strange that a bunch of other regions have this but nothing for the us here in the US. Also, is it true that there was a 70mm print or even the negatives found after they had thought that they were lost forever, but that this was some time after the Miriam Collection DVD was released?

It is all there and it has been there before. Weinstein held the rights at one point not sure about it now. In fact it was them who created the digital elements that have been used for the current Blu-ray releases and either in order to cut costs or also due to improper handlign of what they got they did not create a quality digital element, even considrign what they had to work with. 55 Days at Peking and Circus World show how it can be done even on a smaller scale and a smaller budget but those were scans from the OCN. Unfortunately Weinstein got to El Cid first so that all the important markets with the exception of the US market got releases with subpar El Cid Blu-rays.

So yes, there isn't a release in the US but then what is out there is very disappointing anyway.

[Boschy]

The Australian EL CID Blu-ray from Umbrella appears to have the same looking transfer (if not identical) as the German release. No extras and Region B locked. DTS MA 5.1 audio.

[amputd]

Anyone know who owns the rights to this and whether we can reasonably expect a quality high definition region A release anytime soon?