UltraHD Blurays and players will start coming by Christmas 2015. Still buying blurays

[42041]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Damn that's harsh. IP material is still only one generation removed from the negative, it's not like you're not losing half the resolution in one fell swoop. As for 35mm IP scans which fall "considerably short of even great Blu-ray quality", care to give me a few examples? And I don't mean examples of jittery old HD telecines which have been DNR'ed and/or sharpened to death because that'd make even the most pristine negative look less than stellar, but a modern pin-registered scan. (Batman Begins itself doesn't count because it's an old, filtered, bitstarved HD DVD encode.)

It's not awfully far off, based on the measurements I've seen, you do lose something like a third of your resolution. To my eye, despite the IP being one generation removed from the source, I think the added effect of scanning/scaling/compression/etc results in something that looks more more like a regular 4th generation print than one struck off a negative.

It's not that I think they look actively bad, I just haven't seen any IP-sourced scans that push even blu-ray to its quality limit. They always have that somewhat mushy, generation-lossy look to them, particularly for flat formats. The last handful of post-TDK Christopher Nolan films were scanned at something like 6K, and they're palpably softer than photographically comparable films that went through the regular DI process. Of course, maybe Nolan likes the somewhat velvety quality it gives home video transfers, who knows. The recent MGM 4K efforts (like Robocop) looked good but still not among the format's best. Even Sony's farmed out some 4K IP scans to the likes of Twilight Time (like As Good As It Gets) which is a long shot from their work on Philadelphia (which, as far as I'm concerned, looks as close to a top-notch show print as anything on the format).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by 42041

It's not awfully far off, based on the measurements I've seen, you do lose something like a third of your resolution. To my eye, despite the IP being one generation removed from the source, I think the added effect of scanning/scaling/compression/etc results in something that looks more more like a regular 4th generation print than one struck off a negative.

It's not that I think they look actively bad, I just haven't seen any IP-sourced scans that push even blu-ray to its quality limit. They always have that somewhat mushy, generation-lossy look to them, particularly for flat formats. The last handful of post-TDK Christopher Nolan films were scanned at something like 6K, and they're palpably softer than photographically comparable films that went through the regular DI process. Of course, maybe Nolan likes the somewhat velvety quality it gives home video transfers, who knows. The recent MGM 4K efforts (like Robocop) looked good but still not among the format's best. Even Sony's farmed out some 4K IP scans to the likes of Twilight Time (like As Good As It Gets) which is a long shot from their work on Philadelphia (which, as far as I'm concerned, looks as close to a top-notch show print as anything on the format).

See my edit above about Nolan's soft-as-marshmallow look that he likes for his 35mm stuff in general, I don't think that'll ever be the best arbiter for how good an IP can look at higher resolutions because the softness is baked in. Incidentally I watched Robo again not too long ago and it looked superb to me.

As I also said in my edit, I won't ever say no to a transfer from the negative but an IP handled competently will do me just fine. AGAIG may look pretty darned soft, but then other of Sony's 4K IP transfers like Fright Night are excellent IMO, coping brilliantly with the grainy-assed 5294 origination (well, on the superior German encode anyway).

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Damn that's harsh. IP material is still only one generation removed from the negative, it's not like you're not losing half the resolution in one fell swoop. As for 35mm IP scans which fall "considerably short of even great Blu-ray quality", care to give me a few examples? And I don't mean examples of jittery old HD telecines which have been DNR'ed and/or sharpened to death because that'd make even the most pristine negative look less than stellar, but a modern pin-registered scan.

Batman Begins itself doesn't count because it's an old, filtered, bitstarved HD DVD encode and for some reason Nolan loves to make his 35mm stuff look extremely soft in general so that's his movies off the table. And Shout's transfer/mastering/encoding practices leave a lot to be desired so their in-house IP-sourced transfers aren't much cop for those exact reasons.

You only have to check the BD of Apocalypse Now to see how good IP material can look when it's given competent treatment. Would I love everything to go back to the negative? Of course. Would I kick an IP out of bed if that's all that was offered? Hell no.

I know that Robert Harris has said there's no advantage whatsoever in performing a 4K scan (as opposed to 2K) if you're not going back to the OCN.

Steve W

[Geoff D]

And Grover Crisp would say otherwise.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I really think, at least at the start, the studios should only release real 4k masters to UHD. Blu-ray was really hurt by an influx of DVD masters in the early days, which set up the whole "it looks the same as DVD" mainstream complaint.

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

This is exactly what the studios should do with UHD or they will repeat 2006-2009 with BD, which were not good years for the format.

I think they should have an official 4K Certified label for true 4K UHD BDs. Part of me would like only new titles to be released and no catalogue titles, as it would save us fretting over our beloved favourites, but I doubt that will ever happen. Even if studios have been relatively slow releasing catalogue titles on Blu-ray, they're not going to abandon them for UHD BDs.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by chip75

I think they should have an official 4K Certified label for true 4K UHD BDs. Part of me would like only new titles to be released and no catalogue titles, as it would save us fretting over our beloved favourites, but I doubt that will ever happen. Even if studios have been relatively slow releasing catalogue titles on Blu-ray, they're not going to abandon them for UHD BDs.

What about Ghostbusters 1 & 2?
They both got 4k remasters... you don't want to see them on the new format?

Or any old movie that got a proper restoration, remaster or scan?

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by chip75

I think they should have an official 4K Certified label for true 4K UHD BDs. Part of me would like only new titles to be released and no catalogue titles, as it would save us fretting over our beloved favourites, but I doubt that will ever happen. Even if studios have been relatively slow releasing catalogue titles on Blu-ray, they're not going to abandon them for UHD BDs.

Except some of the flagship titles have received excellent 4K masters. I want those on UHD ASAP.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Except some of the flagship titles have received excellent 4K masters. I want those on UHD ASAP.

I think the best chance this format has is if it gets full studio support (even if it's through excessive licensing like how so many companies let Image handle their LDs) out of the gate, guns blazing, with solid releases of AAA titles. I don't see where with something as niche as this it's to anyone's benefit to pussyfoot around and play games.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

What about Ghostbusters 1 & 2?
They both got 4k remasters... you don't want to see them on the new format?

Or any old movie that got a proper restoration, remaster or scan?

I want catalogue titles as much as anyone, but it gets tiring after a while. If we know they were never coming then we could just look forward to future titles. We're never going to get all the titles we want. We're still waiting for titles on this format. We're still waiting for titles on DVD!

At least I think they should do something different, release new titles on Tuesday and catalogue titles on a Thursday, call it Catalogue Thursday or something ...

[Yojimbo68]

I've been giving it some thought and I think one of the ways that UHD BD can be a minor success is offering titles that have exclusives. Want the Star Wars un-altered original trilogy? UHD BD exclusive. New re-masters of the Star Trek films with the alternate cuts? UHD BD exclusive. That black and white version of Mad Max: Road Fury? UHD BD exclusive. You get the idea. Oh, there would be back lash no doubt. But I think they have to play hard ball to have the format become a success. They probably won't do that but being a film fan myself and a collector, I know what would get me on board sooner rather than later.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

I've been giving it some thought and I think one of the ways that UHD BD can be a minor success is offering titles that have exclusives. Want the Star Wars un-altered original trilogy? UHD BD exclusive. New re-masters of the Star Trek films with the alternate cuts? UHD BD exclusive. That black and white version of Mad Max: Road Fury? UHD BD exclusive. You get the idea. Oh, there would be back lash no doubt. But I think they have to play hard ball to have the format become a success. They probably won't do that but being a film fan myself and a collector, I know what would get me on board sooner rather than later.

The extended Conquest of the Planet of the Apes as an exclusive was a HUGE factor in my paying attention and eventually adopting Blu-ray, that's for sure.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

I've been giving it some thought and I think one of the ways that UHD BD can be a minor success is offering titles that have exclusives. Want the Star Wars un-altered original trilogy? UHD BD exclusive. New re-masters of the Star Trek films with the alternate cuts? UHD BD exclusive. That black and white version of Mad Max: Road Fury? UHD BD exclusive. You get the idea. Oh, there would be back lash no doubt. But I think they have to play hard ball to have the format become a success. They probably won't do that but being a film fan myself and a collector, I know what would get me on board sooner rather than later.

I don't think the studios have much to gain from it. Doing the Star Wars un-altered trilogy would be a very expensive project, why would they hold it back from where it can give them the most return on investment?

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by kidglov3s

The extended Conquest of the Planet of the Apes as an exclusive was a HUGE factor in my paying attention and eventually adopting Blu-ray, that's for sure.

Me too! My first Blu-ray was the international cut of Casino Royale I got from Australia. It's one of my favorite Blu-ray's. It only has about an extra minute of content but it's does improve the film slightly and was a definite catalyst in my adoption of the Blu-ray format.

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by 42041

I don't think the studios have much to gain from it. Doing the Star Wars un-altered trilogy would be a very expensive project, why would they hold it back from where it can give them the most return on investment?

You're probably right in the sense of a return on investment. And I'm not so sure a studio like Disney really gives a hoot about UHD BD. But it's the idea of the exclusives that I was trying to make a point on. A collector can pass maybe on an uptick in quality but an exclusive cut of a film favorite? That's tough.

How about The Abyss or True Lies as UHD BD exclusives? It would cause almost a riot on here but it would get a lot of members here to take the UHD BD plunge.

[Geoff D]

Disney are part of the UHD Alliance so I think they have their eye on that market for sure, though they're not shy about dropping a format if it doesn't work for them, e.g. the lack of ongoing support for their movies on 3D BD in the US. They'll be wary of doing the same thing as with 3D, where they got pissed off with people splitting the 3D/2D combo packs to sell off, so I wouldn't be surprised if they put their weight behind UHD streaming more than physical UHD BD.

[Seth F.]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

You're probably right in the sense of a return on investment. And I'm not so sure a studio like Disney really gives a hoot about UHD BD. But it's the idea of the exclusives that I was trying to make a point on. A collector can pass maybe on an uptick in quality but an exclusive cut of a film favorite? That's tough.

How about The Abyss or True Lies as UHD BD exclusives? It would cause almost a riot on here but it would get a lot of members here to take the UHD BD plunge.

And how would Fox benefit from this? Would they be getting a cut from the sale of UHD BD players? How many discs do you think they will sell? I just don't see these titles selling tens of thousands of players.



The problem I see coming from UHD BD is going to be the price of media.


I just don't see anyone offering any deals on UHD for quite awhile. I will bet that all discs will be close to MSRP. From what info I have gathered MSRP will be $54.99, so prices will be around $35 a disc after normal retail discounts.


This is going to be the SACD/DVD-audio of video. Are you ready to pay?

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by Seth F.

And how would Fox benefit from this? Would they be getting a cut from the sale of UHD BD players? How many discs do you think they will sell? I just don't see these titles selling tens of thousands of players.



The problem I see coming from UHD BD is going to be the price of media.


I just don't see anyone offering any deals on UHD for quite awhile. I will bet that all discs will be close to MSRP. From what info I have gathered MSRP will be $54.99, so prices will be around $35 a disc after normal retail discounts.


This is going to be the SACD/DVD-audio of video. Are you ready to pay?

Blu-ray was expensive too in the beginning. So was DVD. Early adopters always pay through the nose. Pioneers always get the arrows. My point being, that if UHD BD wants to survive as a format, they will need some exclusives to entice collectors. It easy to stand on the side lines with your arms folded until something comes along that you just can't get with other media. Exclusives, in my opinion, are a key ingredient for the format's success.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

I've been giving it some thought and I think one of the ways that UHD BD can be a minor success is offering titles that have exclusives. Want the Star Wars un-altered original trilogy? UHD BD exclusive. New re-masters of the Star Trek films with the alternate cuts? UHD BD exclusive. That black and white version of Mad Max: Road Fury? UHD BD exclusive. You get the idea. Oh, there would be back lash no doubt. But I think they have to play hard ball to have the format become a success. They probably won't do that but being a film fan myself and a collector, I know what would get me on board sooner rather than later.

Exclusive 4k remasters of beloved titles would be the best way to push me to get a player relatively quickly. Die Hard in 4k for example, Terminator 2, Star Trek movies, etc. I would have to get a 4k player immediately for those.

I bet they do combo packs though, making it much less of a big deal.

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Exclusive 4k remasters of beloved titles would be the best way to push me to get a player relatively quickly. Die Hard in 4k for example, Terminator 2, Star Trek movies, etc. I would have to get a 4k player immediately for those.

I bet they do combo packs though, making it much less of a big deal.

It would be very tempting for me as a James Bond fan to get a great transfer of say Goldeneye. And those movies you mentioned would be awfully tempting, the Star Trek movies especially. Those movies really need some tender loving 4K treatment.

[meremortal]

Originally Posted by Seth F.

And how would Fox benefit from this? Would they be getting a cut from the sale of UHD BD players? How many discs do you think they will sell? I just don't see these titles selling tens of thousands of players.



The problem I see coming from UHD BD is going to be the price of media.


I just don't see anyone offering any deals on UHD for quite awhile. I will bet that all discs will be close to MSRP. From what info I have gathered MSRP will be $54.99, so prices will be around $35 a disc after normal retail discounts.


This is going to be the SACD/DVD-audio of video. Are you ready to pay?

I'm kind of worried about that as well. Fox for a couple of years early in the format war era routinely set even their old catalog titles like Speed at a $39.99 msrp or $28 brand new on Amazon. I really hope that's not the case this time around as price is going to be a very important factor. There's going to be a lot of competition with dvd, blu ray, digital, and UHD all on the market. Obviously dvd is still going to reign supreme on the physical media front by a very wide margin for a while and UHD in a best case scenario will siphon away a small but rabid niche of the most dedicated blu ray consumers. Price is just one of the many factors that will make or break this new cycle but it's an extremely important one since the quality benchmark set by blu ray is already so high.