DVD-A1UDCI or Oppo or other...

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Nick,
Dave has yet to see or work on the Oppo players. But, he is quite confident that he can get it to perform exceedingly well. As to the analog connections, Dave normally changes (1) pair of $130 WBT NextGen Silver RCA jacks on the front L&R 2 channel outputs of his players.
Rich

I had set my sights on a 3800BD, and David told me his upgraded 3800 sounded better than the A1UD, but then its rather expensive now.

I've decided to go ahead and take a bit of a risk with the Oppo, so I'll be interested to see how that works out. Videophiles everywhere are queuing up for this machine, and the fact that its multi-voltage and now has region-change mod won't hurt either.

I think Oppo have made more of an effort with the audio than other machines, but its still full of cheap parts, and might offer lots of scope for upgrading. Well I'm hoping it does; I'm quietly confident.

Nick

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I had set my sights on a 3800BD, and David told me his upgraded 3800 sounded better than the A1UD, but then its rather expensive now.

I've decided to go ahead and take a bit of a risk with the Oppo, so I'll be interested to see how that works out. Videophiles everywhere are queuing up for this machine, and the fact that its multi-voltage and now has region-change mod won't hurt either.

I think Oppo have made more of an effort with the audio than other machines, but its still full of cheap parts, and might offer lots of scope for upgrading. Well I'm hoping it does; I'm quietly confident.

Nick

The Oppo is no risk at all.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by EWL5

The Oppo is no risk at all.

That may be true, but Nick is going to have Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company try his hand at wizardry to try to dramatically improve the audio and video performance of the machine.

Rich

[welwynnick]

I think the Oppo is a known quantity by now, and we can be pretty sure about what we will get when we buy a stock unit. It will have particularly good functionality, usability, stability and video performance. It appears to be more rigorously developed than other players, and has fewer faults and bugs. Even where there are problems, we can be pretty sure that Oppo will perform better than other manufacturers in resolving them.

The uncertainty comes from what the modifications might bring. David seems to have worked some magic on other CD, DVD and BD players, but there's no certainty that will apply to the Oppo as well. For my part, I believe the Oppo may have more opportunity for improvement than other machines, but until David gets his hands on one, I think there will always be the possibility that other upgraded machines may perform better for the same total price.

What also particularly pertinent to this thread is the possibility that the Oppo sounds better out of its spdif and HDMI outputs than it does through analogue. Thats the area where I expect both the A1UDCI and the upgraded BDP-83 to pay their way, but Ii don't think that's a certainty, either.

Nick

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

What also particularly pertinent to this thread is the possibility that the Oppo sounds better out of its spdif and HDMI outputs than it does through analogue. Thats the area where I expect both the A1UDCI and the upgraded BDP-83 to pay their way, but Ii don't think that's a certainty, either.

Nick

Why would spdif sound any different b/w any BD player that is bitstreaming? With HDMI, you might be able to make a case for jitter (assuming the player is decoding and outputting PCM), but bitstreaming over coaxial or TOSLINK is just sending packed PCM and letting the downstream AVR/prepro do the unpacking. Any upgraded clock in the player would only help with decoded PCM timing to the destination, no?

To be clear, the jitter I'm talking about is what can easily be heard by human ears, not by equipment who's sole job is to measure jitter. In my experience, I've heard absolutely no degradation due to jitter when my PS3, Oppo BDP83, or Denon 3800 decodes to PCM over HDMI to the same AVR.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Why would spdif sound any different b/w any BD player that is bitstreaming? With HDMI, you might be able to make a case for jitter (assuming the player is decoding and outputting PCM), but bitstreaming over coaxial or TOSLINK is just sending packed PCM and letting the downstream AVR/prepro do the unpacking. Any upgraded clock in the player would only help with decoded PCM timing to the destination, no?

To be clear, the jitter I'm talking about is what can easily be heard by human ears, not by equipment who's sole job is to measure jitter. In my experience, I've heard absolutely no degradation due to jitter when my PS3, Oppo BDP83, or Denon 3800 decodes to PCM over HDMI to the same AVR.

Firstly, I would like to point out that through experience, I have heard differences in the sound coming out of HDMI through different machines; they do not all sound the same. Also, from experience, I have listened to the sound from my upgraded Denon 3800 BDCI through both Coax and HDMI cables for CD (as well as analog cables). What I heard was that the Coax connections sounded better. Also, as to the work done on the CD/DVD/Blu-ray machines by Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company, he does not install super clocks or upgrade clocks in his work. He works on the circuitry, shielding, replaces poor quality with better parts, filters, reducing noise and RF, etc.

Rich

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Firstly, I would like to point out that through experience, I have heard differences in the sound coming out of HDMI through different machines; they do not all sound the same. Also, from experience, I have listened to the sound from my upgraded Denon 3800 BDCI through both Coax and HDMI cables for CD (as well as analog cables). What I heard was that the Coax connections sounded better. Also, as to the work done on the CD/DVD/Blu-ray machines by Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company, he does not install super clocks or upgrade clocks in his work. He works on the circuitry, shielding, replaces poor quality with better parts, filters, reducing noise and RF, etc.

Rich

I understand what you're saying and the major difference could be I may not have the downstream equipment to differentiate the 3 BD players. My point was never about HDMI vs coaxial. However, I find it hard to believe that coaxial could be so different b/w players due to in-player shielding?!!!

One thing I did not make note of from welwynnick's original post was the distinction that there might be the "possibility that the Oppo sounds better out of its spdif and HDMI outputs than it does through analogue". Wouldn't that ultimately depend on the downstream equipment? Going spdif I lose any and all possibility of transmitting DSD. However, the Oppo has DAC's that can transmit DSD directly. The only catch is that the people most likely to benefit are owners of 5 full-range speakers all equidistant from each other and conforming to the ITU diagram. The sound from coaxial (albeit w/room correction capability available for PCM) compared to DSD direct will be entirely to the owner's taste but the "ideal" is always DSD all the way (at least for SACD).

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by EWL5

I understand what you're saying and the major difference could be I may not have the downstream equipment to differentiate the 3 BD players. My point was never about HDMI vs coaxial. However, I find it hard to believe that coaxial could be so different b/w players due to in-player shielding?!!!

One thing I did not make note of from welwynnick's original post was the distinction that there might be the "possibility that the Oppo sounds better out of its spdif and HDMI outputs than it does through analogue". Wouldn't that ultimately depend on the downstream equipment? Going spdif I lose any and all possibility of transmitting DSD. However, the Oppo has DAC's that can transmit DSD directly. The only catch is that the people most likely to benefit are owners of 5 full-range speakers all equidistant from each other and conforming to the ITU diagram. The sound from coaxial (albeit w/room correction capability available for PCM) compared to DSD direct will be entirely to the owner's taste but the "ideal" is always DSD all the way (at least for SACD).

Differences in the sound is not just based on shielding, but the machines themselves, circuitry design, transports, efforts to lessen noise (both physical and electronic), etc.

From the reviews, I believe that the Oppo analog performance is a weakness, unless I remember incorrectly. Much of the upgrades that Dave Schulte works on is in the analog section of machines. Nick and I have been discussing for some time our observations of audio performance of analog versus over HDMI cabling. We both tend to be of the opinion that analog cabling and connections can frequently sound better than sound coming through HDMI (but that is largely defendant on the machines and additional Pre/Pro). So, as an example, Nick is interested in the sound of the 6 analog cables versus HDMI for SACD.

For myself, my upgraded Denon 5910 does not allow for SACD through HDMI because it is HDMI 1.1 and as a result only allows SACD through analog outputs. However, for CD the performance of the upgraded Denon 5910 and the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC is superlative.

Rich

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Why would spdif sound any different b/w any BD player that is bitstreaming? With HDMI, you might be able to make a case for jitter (assuming the player is decoding and outputting PCM), but bitstreaming over coaxial or TOSLINK is just sending packed PCM and letting the downstream AVR/prepro do the unpacking. Any upgraded clock in the player would only help with decoded PCM timing to the destination, no?

To be clear, the jitter I'm talking about is what can easily be heard by human ears, not by equipment who's sole job is to measure jitter. In my experience, I've heard absolutely no degradation due to jitter when my PS3, Oppo BDP83, or Denon 3800 decodes to PCM over HDMI to the same AVR.

EWL, I think you're right to distinguish between LPCM and bitstream, and the likely influence of a better clock. I did a thorough comparison of players and processors here and here, and found that the differences in digital audio between players were confined to LPCM output. I attribute this to the differences in jitter betwen the players.

When BD players output audio as bitstream, I found they sounded not only better, but they sounded the same. However I do hear many people say they hear differences with bitstream as well. I'm happy toaccept that, though I'm curious why that would be. I don't think jitter enters the equation with bitstream because of the different audio clock architecture, so I would scratch around to think of differences in noise and interference between players that could be conducted or radiated to the receiver. EMC issues, in other words.

Taking things a bit further, there seems to be increasing consensus with audiophiles that analogue connections from BD players can sound better than any digital connection, even where jitter is proven to be controlled. This points towards differences in the quality of the player and amplifier DACs, and seems to be favouring the players. I didn't say much about in the above links, but the best BD audio I ever heard was a direct analogue output from the 3800BD: by-passing the pre-pro completely. That was superb. I think this is why players like the A1UD and upgraded Oppo are so significant.

regards, Nick

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I didn't say much about in the above links, but the best BD audio I ever heard was a direct analogue output from the 3800BD: by-passing the pre-pro completely. That was superb. I think this is why players like the A1UD and upgraded Oppo are so significant.

regards, Nick

This is true for me as well. CD over analog from my 3800 to a Rotel receiver is the best audio combo in my house, even over the Oppo's stereo analog output. It's a crying shame that the 3800 is not a universal player!

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by EWL5

This is true for me as well. CD over analog from my 3800 to a Rotel receiver is the best audio combo in my house, even over the Oppo's stereo analog output. It's a crying shame that the 3800 is not a universal player!

That is why you need 2 players. Actually, that is why I am keeping my upgraded Denon 3800 BDCI as well as my upgraded Denon 5910 and my upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC. My upgraded 5910 alone is perhaps equal to any stock unit we have ever heard (and just about any upgraded units including the upgraded 3800) and with the upgraded Lavry DAC it may be equal to any upgraded 2 box unit we have ever heard for CD play back.

Rich

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

That is why you need 2 players. Actually, that is why I am keeping my upgraded Denon 3800 BDCI as well as my upgraded Denon 5910 and my upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC. My upgraded 5910 alone is perhaps equal to any stock unit we have ever heard (and just about any upgraded units including the upgraded 3800) and with the upgraded Lavry DAC it may be equal to any upgraded 2 box unit we have ever heard for CD play back.

Rich

Sure, but what does your 3800 sound like via the Lavry?

To tell the truth, I even considered getting a stock 3800 plus an upgraded CD/DVD player, but thought it was a bit extravagant.

Cheers, Nick

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Sure, but what does your 3800 sound like via the Lavry?

To tell the truth, I even considered getting a stock 3800 plus an upgraded CD/DVD player, but thought it was a bit extravagant.

Cheers, Nick

Sorry Nick,

Still haven't gotten around to that test yet; but I would bet it isn't as good as the 5910 based on what we have already heard for both units alone. The Lavry may be something to consider for you in the future if you are pleased with Dave's work though.

Rich

[welwynnick]

I couldn't help noticing that there's an upgrade company Denon 5910 on Audiogon at the moment, and wondered how much sense that would make in the big scheme of things. Of course it could be that having the Oppo feed digital audio over spdif to a processor might give the best results anyway, or indeed even having a stereo DAC in between the player and processor, but I think that might undermine the benefit and value of having the upgrade on the both the player and the processor.

My focus is on the interface where digital audio meets analogue. I think this is key for two reasons. Firstly, that's where jitter actually makes its impact, and secondly, that's where the power of the analogue signals are smallest and hence most vulnerable to degradation. I think this applies to an even greater extent with vinyl, especially with moving coil cartridges.

Nomatter, what I wanted to achieve was an improvement in whatever it was that did the D to A conversion, and consolidate my budget in that area. Instead, what I'm planning to do is have both the player and processor upgraded. This gives me some options, in case player processing is best for CD, and processor processing is best for BD, for example. I'm not sure it will work out that way, but I can't wait to find out.

Hopefully, the improvements that help CD performance will directly help AV performance as well. It seems to be many people's long-standing ambition to realise a system that performs wel with both stereo and multi-channel reproduction, but many gave up and went for separate systems. i'm hoping to avoid that.

Nick

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I couldn't help noticing that there's an upgrade company Denon 5910 on Audiogon at the moment, and wondered how much sense that would make in the big scheme of things. Of course it could be that having the Oppo feed digital audio over spdif to a processor might give the best results anyway, or indeed even having a stereo DAC in between the player and processor, but I think that might undermine the benefit and value of having the upgrade on the both the player and the processor.

My focus is on the interface where digital audio meets analogue. I think this is key for two reasons. Firstly, that's where jitter actually makes its impact, and secondly, that's where the power of the analogue signals are smallest and hence most vulnerable to degradation. I think this applies to an even greater extent with vinyl, especially with moving coil cartridges.

Nomatter, what I wanted to achieve was an improvement in whatever it was that did the D to A conversion, and consolidate my budget in that area. Instead, what I'm planning to do is have both the player and processor upgraded. This gives me some options, in case player processing is best for CD, and processor processing is best for BD, for example. I'm not sure it will work out that way, but I can't wait to find out.

Hopefully, the improvements that help CD performance will directly help AV performance as well. It seems to be many people's long-standing ambition to realise a system that performs wel with both stereo and multi-channel reproduction, but many gave up and went for separate systems. i'm hoping to avoid that.

Nick

Nick,

It all comes down to what is the most important to you. The already upgraded Denon 5910 would need to go back to Dave for the current upgrades to be up to the performance of mine. Mine also has additional Bybees added to the unit which is above and beyond the norm.

However, once the 5910 was brought to the current "State of the Art" you would have one of the very best performing and sounding CD, SACD, DVD, and DVD-A units in the world either stock or upgraded. Parts would need to burn it to reach its potential. And with an upgraded Lavry DA10 the unit may be equal basically to anything that we have heard, stock or upgraded including upgraded Esoteric ($40,000 stock) and EMM Labs ($20,000 stock) 2 box units. The EMM Labs may be better or it may be better in certain areas. But the combination of the upgraded Denon 5910 and the upgraded Lavry DA10 lack any of the etch that has been noted with the upgraded EMM Labs 2 box unit. Regardless, consider the cost of the upgraded Denon 5910 and the upgraded Lavry DA10 will cost "only" about $5,000 for the used Denon 5910, upgrade of the 5910 and an upgrade to a Lavry DA10; the Denon 5910 alone would cost about $3,000 for the used Audiogon unit plus the upgrade cost (I am not sure what that would be and if you opted for the Bybees). The EMM Labs on the other hand unless it could be found used would be $20,000 plus the cost of the upgrade.

A few things would need to be considered, however. First, the Lavry DAC could be gotten later. Second the Denon 5910 is only a CD, DVD, SACD, DVD-A player and only has HDMI 1.1 (not 1.3 so there may be handshake issues for HDMI- I am not sure of the issues with my Onkyo). Third, the Denon 5910 is not a Blu-ray player and you would/will require one for the playing Blu-ray disks.

Rich

[zepherman]

I just ordered an A1UDCI! It's going to be from the second batch coming the third week in July. Once I get it I'll post my impressions.


Seth

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by zepherman

I just ordered an A1UDCI! It's going to be from the second batch coming the third week in July. Once I get it I'll post my impressions.


Seth

Seth,

I will be interested in your impressions and observations about the new Denon.

Rich

[zepherman]

Hi everyone,

I had been meaning to post my impressions a couple of weeks ago, but just never got around to doing it. I've had my A1 for a little over 3 weeks now, and have had a lot time to put it through its paces.

So, is it as good as it was hyped up to be? Most definitely!

I previously thought that my Denon 2500BTCI was as good as it gets with Blu-ray, but now that I've been using the A1UDCI I know that BD PQ can get a lot better. All of the Blu-ray movies I've played in the A1 (owned and rented) have to be the absolute best Blu-ray images I've yet seen. The PQ has a very 3 dimensional look to it, the images have real depth, which makes the images really pop. The clarity, detail, black levels, and even color is improved over the 2500. And this was before I did any tweaking of the built in HQV Realta video processing.

After I used the "Enhancer" feature that Realta offers, the images went from amazing to downright phenomenal! It added edge detail and extra clarity without any hint of artifacts. The picture was always very natural looking but razor sharp as the same time. The look is very appealing. I loved the what it did to the picture.

On the audio side of things, I connected the player using both HDMI outputs. I ran one directly to the display (video only) and the other to the Denon AVP pre/pro (audio only). Setup and configuring the A1 was pretty much straight forward using the setup guide provided by a fellow A1UD/AVP owner here on AVS. Without the help of this guide however, the whole setup process would have been a lot more complicated. These are so many features and settings on this player that it kind of reminded me of the first time I was setting up my Denon AVP pre/pro.

But along with all this complexity, comes a level of performance that really sets this player in a league all its own. But I have to say that to benefit from the HDMI using Denon Link 4th one needs to use a compatible Denon receiver or pre/pro that will accept the new Denon Link 4th. The Denon Link 4th anti jitter control re-clocks the incoming HDMI audio signal for the purest sound possible.

Another thing that really makes this player special is it's 32 bit analog section. CD playback via its 2 channel fully balanced XLR outputs is a real treat! I have a Sony CDP-XA20ES CD Player that I've used as my reference player for years, and the A1 edged it out. And that's not small feat, as the XA20 is one of the best CD players out there. The sound via the balanced connections is very smooth, and it has no edginess or digital glare to the sound. The sound has a bit of warmth that makes listening to CD's a pleasure, as one can listen for hours without listener fatigue.

SACD and DVD-A via Denon Link is superb! A pure DSD stream is achieved using Denon's proprietary Denon Link connection, and it offers the purest sound. Separation, detail, soundstage, and dynamics are excellent, and easily the best I've head from my SACD/DVD-A collection. I have not tried out the 7.1 analog outs for SACD/DVD-A as I'm using Denon Link for that. But from what I've read from others that do use them, the sound is stunning! I may at some point try them just to see how they compare to Denon Link.

Load times while not the fastest around, are still respectable and actually faster than my Denon 2500BTCI. Normal load times on discs with plenty of BD Java content took approx. 40-45 seconds from tray close to the FBI warning screen. Menu load times took 12-14 seconds. Player boot up from off took only 3 seconds using quick start. For me a wait of around a minute total time is no biggie at all, especially considering the phenomenal PQ and sound that is offered by this player.

Remote responsiveness is very good to excellent. Some A1 owners have mentioned that their remotes are a bit sluggish and not very quick to respond to commands. I have found the remote to be very responsive and all commands that I have used worked flawlessly and quickly. I love the fact that the entire remote buttons are backlit (and very easy to see in the dark). The remote buttons are well arranged and easy to get to, and the feel of the remote is really nice (it's actually got some heft to it).

The GUI setup menu is very nice and is very similar in style to my Denon AVP. So navigating my way around was actually fairly easy. There are many layers of pages in the GUI, and as such will take a little while to learn everything. But I'd rather have many options than not enough. As even if I don't need everything now, it is still nice to have on board in the event that I ever do.

Firmware updates using the the players GUI was pretty painless. My A1 didn't update completely the first time I tried, but the second time around it updated smoothly and successfully. It showed the status of the update in the players display window.

The build quality of this player is pretty darn impressive! The weight of the player is a scale tipping 42 lbs, which is around the weight of some AV receivers. Fit and finish is first rate also. I have to say that the A1 is the most elegant player I've seen, with its sculpted wave front which matches my AVP and 2500BTCI quite nicely.

Another thing which makes the A1 stand out is the fact that It's an all in house designed and built player by Denon. Even the transport is all Denon's own design and build. And what a transport it is, the mechanism is super smooth and ultra quiet. The thin all aluminum tray is really slick!

So in conclusion, the A1UDCI is everything I hoped it would be and then some. It's a player with brawn and finesse. It delivers stunning PQ and sound, has superb build quality, and very elegant styling. Denon raised the bar very high with this player. I hope it gives me many years of enjoyment.


Seth

[Jamesmm]

Great thread, you missed your calling as a comedian. Anyway, I love the OPPO BDP-93 it rocks and given what it does and does well, It's the best BR player on the market for the money --- in my opinion and is the general consensus among the experts --- and the only BR player I would purchase. I love the player so much I purchase two of those bad-boys. I love Denon receivers, I own the 5308CI ---- and I plan on purchasing their surround processor as soon as Denon upgrades the technology --- I believe the time frame for upgrades is Sept or Oct of 2011. However, as far as their BR players go, not a chance for the coins their asking given their performance. Not that their bad players just not in line with today's economy and cost vs. performance tradeoff, again in my opinion. I own their discontinued high-end dvd players which I use for audio play back now: 3901ci and 5910ci not to mention I auditioned their top of line BR player. However, If I had to do all over again back then, I would have opted for something a lot less like an Oppo DVD player but I didn't know about Oppo at the time. Oh; by the way, I believe you covered everything, thank you.

Originally Posted by EWL5

I was confused by the title of this thread when I read "AVP". AVP is Denon's designation for a preamp. I think you meant DVD-A1UDCI universal BD player instead of the AVP-A1HDCI preamp.

Here are the pros/cons AFAIK:

Oppo BDP83

PROS
1) $4k cheaper
2) Plays DSD direct over HDMI or analog
3) ABT VRS performed better than the Realta (at least in 720p, don't know about 1080p) on the Spears and Munsil disk.
4) Great customer service
5) Timely firmware updates
6) Fast as the PS3 (and sometimes faster!)

CONS
1) Some users report occasional popping from SACD/DVD-A (should be fixed eventually by firmware).
2) Does not have any fancy upsampling for audio.
3) Cannot do Dolby ProLogic IIx matrixing for 7.1 systems.
4) Bass management limited to 80Hz crossover.
5) Limited mosquito NR on VRS

Denon A1UDCI

PROS
1) Built like a tank
2) No reported issues so far with SACD/DVD-A
3) Will do ProLogic IIx in player
4) Has jitter reduction/elimination circuit for BD HBR codecs when HDMI is used in conjunction with DenonLink4. (I consider jitter a non-issue for multichannel audio for movies)
5) Bass management more complete with more crossover choices
6) Excellent mosquito NR from Realta if required
7) AL32 32-bit upsampling should breathe new life into all audio, including CD's.

CONS
1) Expensive
2) Limited to 16-bit/44kHz PCM for SACD over HDMI. Edit: Native DSD over DenonLink is possible with DenonLink 3 and above AVR/prepros.
3) Will not stream DSD direct (see above)
4) Firmware updates have been slow
5) BD Live still not activated (too few owners at this point)
6) Early reports are that it is relatively slow. PS3/Oppo have set quite the benchmark for speed.

Did I miss anything?