Do we mark higher than we should? - Page 3 - Blu-ray Forum

DetroitSportsFan · 10-11-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aggienader08

What do you mean the metal case? Doesn't it just come in a standard blu packaging?

Best Buy had an exclusive steelbook case if you preordered.

Barvan40 · 10-11-2009, 02:02 AM

Snow White was an amazing movie when it was released. My grandparents took my mother to this movie when she was just 8 years old. She remembered it for the rest of her life as the best movie she had ever seen.

You have to keep in mind this was before television and most kids only went to the movies once or twice a year. This one was a full length animated movie based on a story kids already knew. To see that story come to life in color on the big screen was a wondrous event.

Put in the context of that time this movie deserves the high marks it received.

When judged by the jaded audience of today, and set against the loony political correctness Hollyweird now crams down your throat, classic movies like this one may not score that high.

42041 · 10-11-2009, 02:37 AM

I'm not at ALL interested in how an older movie looks on some absolute scale. I'm only interested in how well it's transferred to HD, and Disney's done a great job in that regard on all their old-school animation. The old stuff doesn't really connect with me on a storytelling level because back then it seems like making films entertaining for both adult and children audiences wasn't a priority, but I still find them fascinating as historical artifacts and feats of artistry.

toef · 10-11-2009, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesdevil

I'm 23 and have zero 'nostalgia' for Disney (in the sense that I am reliving my childhood or whatever by viewing this films now) or anything of the sort I just like good films. I like Snow White because of its historical importance (which in turn adds to the viewing as I pay more attention to how the animation is, the sound, the voices, etc.) and it is simple, entertaining and frankly pretty funny to me.

Someone would have to be very cynical or have a heart of stone to not get quite a few decent laughs out of the dwarfs. Easily some of my favorite Disney characters ever. If you view them as an example of children (which are the target audience by and large) for children it is a pretty great learning tool for them with examples in very simple ways - cleaning your room, washing before you eat, enjoying work, etc.

I'm close in age, and in the similar position of not having any real nostalgia for these old movies. I think I saw Snow White in kindergarten about 20 years ago, but didn't really remember any of it. If I have any sort of nostalgia for any Disney movies, it's probably only for The Little Mermaid and Aladdin, which are the only two I remember seeing in theaters (I saw Beauty and the Beast, Lion King and Hunchback of Notre Dame on video, and nothing after those).

But anyway, I was surprised to actually laugh a few times during Snow White the other night. My only problem is I now feel obligated to collect all the movies, to see how the animation evolved from Snow White through Lion King (because I refuse to acknowledge any of the ones after that as being Disney movies).

Brad1963 · 10-11-2009, 03:10 AM

The film is a masterpiece and should be looked at as what it is; a simple story that is enhanced by stunning hand drawn animation. I'm very happy to have it in my Blu ray collection.

jamesdevil · 10-11-2009, 03:13 AM

I'll feel compelled only because it is a quality product that Disney puts out for home video and because I like the films. Looking at the list of their animated classics, after Bambi the 6 film gap before Cinderella is about the only films on the list that I wouldn't want to own until you get to the post-Fantasia 2000 era. Pretty stunning the amount of fantastic works there.

Blu-rob77 · 10-11-2009, 04:07 AM

I've got oz, snow white, slepping beauty, pinocchio havn't seen any of em. But the wife and kids love em, and there in my collection.

RiseDarthVader · 10-11-2009, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryoohki

Personnally i prefer 2D animation. 3D have it's share of goodness but it's share of crap too. If it wasn't for Pixar, 3D animation would be really poor right now (cartoon).

Actually you should thank George Lucas. Without him there wouldn't be Pixar at all.

coralfangs · 10-11-2009, 04:59 AM

Sorry, but it's simply dumb to compare two films from two completely different eras.
Film is a form of art and like all art, it evolves over time.
It's like saying that a Monet is inferior to a DaVinci because a Monet is not as detailed as a DaVinci.

RocShemp · 10-11-2009, 06:04 AM

It's all subjective so I see nothing wrong with TheZoof not liking it. I love both Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (despite the latter's glaring plot hole) but only find Alice In Wonderland to be okay and hate Peter Pan (despite my adoration of Tinkerbell).

painted_klown · 10-11-2009, 06:06 AM

I do believe that there is a certain amount of respect given to classic films that have historical signifigance. I personally do the same.
I respect the old classics as works of art and judge them based on what they represent or represented in their time and how well they have stood up to the "test of time".

It's fair to say that the signifigance of Snow white would probably not be the same today if it had been released last year but it wasn't. It was relased in 1937 and in that era it was groundbreaking. It was the FIRST full length animated feature EVER produced!!!

The quality and success of Snow White literally changed the film industry forever. It paved the way for EVERYTHING animated that followed it. Including all recent animated movies and those still yet to come.

When you watch Snow White and take it for what it is, (a beautifully drawn masterpeice) instead of trying to compare it to todays CGI films, you can begin to really appreciate it as a work of art, labor of love, peice of cinematic history, and an entertaining and funny movie.

As far as PQ ratings for blu are concerned I feel that it should be judged on one criteria only.
Does the blu ray accurately reproduce the source material?

If the source material looks less than perfect due to age, dirt, debris, damage to the print, a low budget, directorial style choices, ect. then that is what the blu should show. If the transfer does that without issue then it has done it's job.

If the source it's reproducing looks terrible, that doesn't mean the PQ of the blu is terrible, it means the PQ of the SOURCE material is terrible.

In the case of some classic films and catalog titles the transfer is just about as good as it ever could have been, thus earning the blu high marks in PQ.

Sorry for such a long post. This is just a very interesting topic and discussion.

aggienader08 · 10-11-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aggienader08

What do you mean the metal case? Doesn't it just come in a standard blu packaging?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DetroitSportsFan

Best Buy had an exclusive steelbook case if you preordered.

You must be referring to 'Snow White', but he theZoof was referring to 'Sleeping Beauty' in a metal case I believe. Unless I'm reading it wrong. "I have not seen Sleeping Beauty on blu-ray but I was going to buy it this Tuesday when the Metal case comes out but Snow White scared me." - theZoof

No matter anyway.

bygberbrown · 10-11-2009, 07:10 AM

Snow White was a major experiment, Disney's first feature. It's the only one that is dated. Look at Pinnochio, their very next picture, the animation is stunning. Just appreciate Snow White for what it did: invented the feature-length animated musical. But, if you want enjoyment, feel safe with every other Disney movie ever made. Everything after Snow White is stunning in every regard.

aggienader08 · 10-11-2009, 07:26 AM

I too purchase some of the Disney films for their historical and ground breaking industry setting standards. I thoroughly enjoy them as well, not because they remind me of my childhood, but because most of them are wonderful films that have a lot of meaning. There's a lot more depth to some of the Disney films than meets the naive eye, especially when talking about children.

For example, I wouldn't share 'Pinocchio' with my child at an earlier age than 7 because not only would they not understand it, they would be terrified. Films like 'Cinderella' created a new genre that has been rewritten beyond cliché. That should go without saying. Of course Disney may not have been the first to tell it, but when we think of the "Cinderella story" don't we all think of Disney?

Because of those standards that were set long before I and most of us was born, I without a doubt would give the film itself a high rating, and if the PQ of the animated film looks better than I've ever seen it before, then I would also give the PQ a high rating. Remember, that is what's so amazing about blu-ray is that it can give us a whole new experience with films.

Also, comparing old animated films to newer Pixar movies completely devalues the artistry and the skill that went into crafting these timeless classics. Granted I love Pixar and everything about it, don't get me wrong. But I also love the stop motion animation of yore. If they weren't in the same genre together as "animated films" I would go as far to say that's black and white.

My nieces are 3 and 6 years-old and they've never seen a Disney movie that's not Pixar! Very disturbing to me.

jamesdevil · 10-11-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocShemp

It's all subjective so I see nothing wrong with TheZoof not liking it. I love both Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (despite the latter's glaring plot hole) but only find Alice In Wonderland to be okay and hate Peter Pan (despite my adoration of Tinkerbell).

I personally don't have a care at all if someone doesn't like a film that I enjoy on any personal level. But criticizing the transfer is a technical issue and one with some basis. It seems the OP doesn't have an understanding in the difference between a restored transfer of the first full length animated color film and one created with top of the line computers and technology a few years ago.

It irritates me that so many associate gloss with being the pinnacle of BD picture quality when there are so many things to consider. Like another poster mentioned previously, when reviewing transfers it is all relative to the original source.

RocShemp · 10-11-2009, 08:23 AM

I get what you're saying, jamesdevil, and I agree. That's why I only commented on his opinion of the movie itself.

ascendedcobra · 10-11-2009, 11:09 AM

I got this one coming any day now from amazon . Im not real excited for it but my wife wanted it for our daughter. I do think you are absolutely right on the mark though,and everyone knows this before ever seeing the review. As a classic it is beyond reproach and thats ok by me.I only read PQ or AQ scores unless Im unfamiliar with a movie.
I recently watched the Searchers hddvd and was blown away by the PQ. I would rate it a 5/5 because of the age. It would have got a 4/5 if it had been made in 08. As for the movie itself maybe 2/5 for being boring.I still enjoy the history and nostalgia of the classics and thats worth something.

richieb1971 · 10-11-2009, 12:56 PM

Im not sure if this is correct, but isn't it possible using computers to take the source materials and completely do these movies again?

You've got 24 frames per second of film. Thats a few hundred thousand frames to photoshop to a particular standard. Since the animation is cell based it shouldn't be hard to just color it in and give it some gloss.

It is quite possible by the time Snow white came out, there was little original source material left in the actual movie at all. I'm pretty sure what we on blu ray is a 2009 representation of it.

Snow white is a universally accepted movie. Its innocent.

painted_klown · 10-11-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richieb1971

Im not sure if this is correct, but isn't it possible using computers to take the source materials and completely do these movies again?

You've got 24 frames per second of film. Thats a few hundred thousand frames to photoshop to a particular standard. Since the animation is cell based it shouldn't be hard to just color it in and give it some gloss.

It is quite possible by the time Snow white came out, there was little original source material left in the actual movie at all. I'm pretty sure what we on blu ray is a 2009 representation of it.

Snow white is a universally accepted movie. Its innocent.

My guess is that this was probably done to some extent on Snow White, pinoccio, and Sleeping beauty. I am speaking from ignorance however as I have not yet seen any of them on blu. (waiting on Snow White and Pinoccio to come in the mail

)

Does anyone know for sure if any computer/digital restoration was done on any of these films? Do the extras include any information about the restoration process? It would be very interesting to know what went into them for the blu releases.

richieb1971 · 10-11-2009, 03:00 PM

Reading this thread I get the impression that people believe something should be in the presentation that wasn't there originally. Like details and such. SW is just a cell animated cartoon. If the original source material was used in the final cut on blu ray i'm pretty sure it would look ropey at best.

In order to get what we see on blu rays SW, you have to do alot of digital poking around. Since its cell based, i'm also pretty sure upscaling it to even higher resolutions would pose an even better image at bigger screen sizes.

10-11-2009, 06:06 AM	#51
painted_klown Expert Member Member since:Aug 2009 Location:Posting Unpopular Opinions 4K collection:1 Blu-ray collection:1 Trading Score:23	I do believe that there is a certain amount of respect given to classic films that have historical signifigance. I personally do the same. I respect the old classics as works of art and judge them based on what they represent or represented in their time and how well they have stood up to the "test of time". It's fair to say that the signifigance of Snow white would probably not be the same today if it had been released last year but it wasn't. It was relased in 1937 and in that era it was groundbreaking. It was the FIRST full length animated feature EVER produced!!! The quality and success of Snow White literally changed the film industry forever. It paved the way for EVERYTHING animated that followed it. Including all recent animated movies and those still yet to come. When you watch Snow White and take it for what it is, (a beautifully drawn masterpeice) instead of trying to compare it to todays CGI films, you can begin to really appreciate it as a work of art, labor of love, peice of cinematic history, and an entertaining and funny movie. As far as PQ ratings for blu are concerned I feel that it should be judged on one criteria only. Does the blu ray accurately reproduce the source material? If the source material looks less than perfect due to age, dirt, debris, damage to the print, a low budget, directorial style choices, ect. then that is what the blu should show. If the transfer does that without issue then it has done it's job. If the source it's reproducing looks terrible, that doesn't mean the PQ of the blu is terrible, it means the PQ of the SOURCE material is terrible. In the case of some classic films and catalog titles the transfer is just about as good as it ever could have been, thus earning the blu high marks in PQ. Sorry for such a long post. This is just a very interesting topic and discussion. Last edited by painted_klown; 10-11-2009 at 06:11 AM.

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10-11-2009, 02:02 AM	#42
Barvan40 Member Member since:Nov 2008 4K collection:53 Blu-ray collection:624 DVD collection:55 Digital collection:7	Snow White was an amazing movie when it was released. My grandparents took my mother to this movie when she was just 8 years old. She remembered it for the rest of her life as the best movie she had ever seen. You have to keep in mind this was before television and most kids only went to the movies once or twice a year. This one was a full length animated movie based on a story kids already knew. To see that story come to life in color on the big screen was a wondrous event. Put in the context of that time this movie deserves the high marks it received. When judged by the jaded audience of today, and set against the loony political correctness Hollyweird now crams down your throat, classic movies like this one may not score that high.

10-11-2009, 02:37 AM	#43
42041 Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Oct 2008	I'm not at ALL interested in how an older movie looks on some absolute scale. I'm only interested in how well it's transferred to HD, and Disney's done a great job in that regard on all their old-school animation. The old stuff doesn't really connect with me on a storytelling level because back then it seems like making films entertaining for both adult and children audiences wasn't a priority, but I still find them fascinating as historical artifacts and feats of artistry.

10-11-2009, 03:10 AM	#45
Brad1963 Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Los Angeles, CA 4K collection:338 Blu-ray collection:1629 DVD collection:1 Blu-ray reviews: 1	The film is a masterpiece and should be looked at as what it is; a simple story that is enhanced by stunning hand drawn animation. I'm very happy to have it in my Blu ray collection.

10-11-2009, 03:13 AM	#46
jamesdevil Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Oct 2009 Location:Raleigh, NC 4K collection:640 Blu-ray collection:987 DVD collection:18 MA collection:571 Digital collection:25 iTunes collection:119 Trading Score:20	I'll feel compelled only because it is a quality product that Disney puts out for home video and because I like the films. Looking at the list of their animated classics, after Bambi the 6 film gap before Cinderella is about the only films on the list that I wouldn't want to own until you get to the post-Fantasia 2000 era. Pretty stunning the amount of fantastic works there.

10-11-2009, 04:07 AM	#47
Blu-rob77 Blu-ray Guru Member since:Feb 2009 Location:hollister ca Blu-ray collection:148 Blu-ray reviews:1	I've got oz, snow white, slepping beauty, pinocchio havn't seen any of em. But the wife and kids love em, and there in my collection.

10-11-2009, 04:59 AM	#49
coralfangs Senior Member Member since:Dec 2007	Sorry, but it's simply dumb to compare two films from two completely different eras. Film is a form of art and like all art, it evolves over time. It's like saying that a Monet is inferior to a DaVinci because a Monet is not as detailed as a DaVinci.

10-11-2009, 06:04 AM	#50
RocShemp Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jul 2009 Blu-ray reviews:2	It's all subjective so I see nothing wrong with TheZoof not liking it. I love both Snow White and Sleeping Beauty (despite the latter's glaring plot hole) but only find Alice In Wonderland to be okay and hate Peter Pan (despite my adoration of Tinkerbell).

10-11-2009, 07:10 AM	#53
bygberbrown Active Member Member since:Aug 2009 Location:Sydney, Australia Home Theater Gallery:1 Blu-ray collection:356 DVD collection:107 Blu-ray reviews:19	Snow White was a major experiment, Disney's first feature. It's the only one that is dated. Look at Pinnochio, their very next picture, the animation is stunning. Just appreciate Snow White for what it did: invented the feature-length animated musical. But, if you want enjoyment, feel safe with every other Disney movie ever made. Everything after Snow White is stunning in every regard.

10-11-2009, 07:26 AM	#54
aggienader08 Blu-ray Samurai Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Jan 2009 Location:Fort Worth, TX Home Theater Gallery:24 Blu-ray collection:513 Blu-ray reviews: 3	I too purchase some of the Disney films for their historical and ground breaking industry setting standards. I thoroughly enjoy them as well, not because they remind me of my childhood, but because most of them are wonderful films that have a lot of meaning. There's a lot more depth to some of the Disney films than meets the naive eye, especially when talking about children. For example, I wouldn't share 'Pinocchio' with my child at an earlier age than 7 because not only would they not understand it, they would be terrified. Films like 'Cinderella' created a new genre that has been rewritten beyond cliché. That should go without saying. Of course Disney may not have been the first to tell it, but when we think of the "Cinderella story" don't we all think of Disney? Because of those standards that were set long before I and most of us was born, I without a doubt would give the film itself a high rating, and if the PQ of the animated film looks better than I've ever seen it before, then I would also give the PQ a high rating. Remember, that is what's so amazing about blu-ray is that it can give us a whole new experience with films. Also, comparing old animated films to newer Pixar movies completely devalues the artistry and the skill that went into crafting these timeless classics. Granted I love Pixar and everything about it, don't get me wrong. But I also love the stop motion animation of yore. If they weren't in the same genre together as "animated films" I would go as far to say that's black and white. My nieces are 3 and 6 years-old and they've never seen a Disney movie that's not Pixar! Very disturbing to me.

10-11-2009, 08:23 AM	#56
RocShemp Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jul 2009 Blu-ray reviews:2	I get what you're saying, jamesdevil, and I agree. That's why I only commented on his opinion of the movie itself.

10-11-2009, 11:09 AM	#57
ascendedcobra Active Member Member since:Oct 2009 Location:teh desert Blu-ray collection:146 Blu-ray reviews:12	I got this one coming any day now from amazon . Im not real excited for it but my wife wanted it for our daughter. I do think you are absolutely right on the mark though,and everyone knows this before ever seeing the review. As a classic it is beyond reproach and thats ok by me.I only read PQ or AQ scores unless Im unfamiliar with a movie. I recently watched the Searchers hddvd and was blown away by the PQ. I would rate it a 5/5 because of the age. It would have got a 4/5 if it had been made in 08. As for the movie itself maybe 2/5 for being boring.I still enjoy the history and nostalgia of the classics and thats worth something.

10-11-2009, 12:56 PM	#58
richieb1971 Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Aug 2007 4K collection:89 Blu-ray collection:706 Trading Score:16	Im not sure if this is correct, but isn't it possible using computers to take the source materials and completely do these movies again? You've got 24 frames per second of film. Thats a few hundred thousand frames to photoshop to a particular standard. Since the animation is cell based it shouldn't be hard to just color it in and give it some gloss. It is quite possible by the time Snow white came out, there was little original source material left in the actual movie at all. I'm pretty sure what we on blu ray is a 2009 representation of it. Snow white is a universally accepted movie. Its innocent.

10-11-2009, 03:00 PM	#60
richieb1971 Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Aug 2007 4K collection:89 Blu-ray collection:706 Trading Score:16	Reading this thread I get the impression that people believe something should be in the presentation that wasn't there originally. Like details and such. SW is just a cell animated cartoon. If the original source material was used in the final cut on blu ray i'm pretty sure it would look ropey at best. In order to get what we see on blu rays SW, you have to do alot of digital poking around. Since its cell based, i'm also pretty sure upscaling it to even higher resolutions would pose an even better image at bigger screen sizes.

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