The Last Temptation of Christ (1988)

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by jmbenesh

And, I am a Christian, but the idea of a tempted Christ doesn't bother me. It's a movie, after all.

I am a staunch atheist, and I can't really understand that approach. Movie or not, why should it bother you at all? The idea of Christ resisting a VERY strong temptation in order to "save" mankind should make him greater, shouldn't it?

It's like being brave: it's not about not having fear, but about being strong enough to face that fear and overcome it. If you don't feel fear you are not brave, just foolish.

So, same thing with temptation. If you are not tempted to begin with, what's your merit? Where's your sacrifice?

The strongest the temptation and the hardest the sacrifice, the most value in not yielding to it.

I think this story does not undermine the figure of Christ, quite the opposite, it gives more meaning to his sacrifice and, by making his story more "real" instead of a biblical fantasy, by making him more human, makes him greater in the end. It's like getting the real story behind the myth, stripped off the fantasy elements.

I really believe this is a very reverential film, both in essence and in form.

After all, it comes from Schrader and Scorsese.

[jmbenesh]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

I am a staunch atheist, and I can't really understand that approach. Movie or not, why should it bother you at all? The idea of Christ resisting a VERY strong temptation in order to "save" mankind should make him greater, shouldn't it?

It's like being brave: it's not about not having fear, but about being strong enough to face that fear and overcome it. If you don't feel fear you are not brave, just foolish.

So, same thing with temptation. If you are not tempted to begin with, what's your merit? Where's your sacrifice?

The strongest the temptation and the hardest the sacrifice, the most value in not yielding to it.

I think this story does not undermine the figure of Christ, quite the opposite, it gives more meaning to his sacrifice and, by making his story more "real" instead of a biblical fantasy, by making him more human, makes him greater in the end. It's like getting the real story behind the myth, stripped off the fantasy elements.

I really believe this is a very reverential film, both in essence and in form.

After all, it comes from Schrader and Scorsese.

I said it didn't bother me, so I'm not sure what this rant is about.

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by jmbenesh

I said it didn't bother me, so I'm not sure what this rant is about.

Well, it is an observation on your posting, not a "rant".

And yes, you said it didn't bother you, as I myself quoted in my posting, but you added that this was so because "it's a movie, after all", as though you were implying that you find "the idea of a tempted Christ" acceptable only as long as it is an imaginary story presented in movie form, and not a true theological or historical proposition.

Hence my "rant" on the humanization of Christ not diminishing its figure in any way, as many christian believers tend to think and take offence to, but quite the opossite in fact.

[Member-38928]

Originally Posted by jmbenesh

And, I am a Christian, but the idea of a tempted Christ doesn't bother me. It's a movie, after all.

I am a Christian as well and I agree, it is just a movie and we should take nothing from it. Movies are purely for our entertainment.....although I do suppose that is not necessarily an easy thing to do, especially for those of us who do not spend enough time in church.

[Member-38928]

Originally Posted by Shout92

Review is up on the site:

The Last Temptation of Christ Blu-ray Review

Excellent, I am very much looking forward to getting and watching my copy.

[Smart]

I've yet to buy a Criterion before, but if I were, it'd be a close tie between this and The Battle for Algiers

[dwane5]

Originally Posted by Smart

I've yet to buy a Criterion before, but if I were, it'd be a close tie between this and The Battle for Algiers

becareful, one u get one u will be hooked.

get this one tho, 14.99 is quite a deal.

[CinemaBlu]

Originally Posted by bentvalve

it is just a movie and we should take nothing from it. Movies are purely for our entertainment

That's only true of BAD movies.

[arcadeforest]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

I am a staunch atheist, and I can't really understand that approach. Movie or not, why should it bother you at all? The idea of Christ resisting a VERY strong temptation in order to "save" mankind should make him greater, shouldn't it?

It's like being brave: it's not about not having fear, but about being strong enough to face that fear and overcome it. If you don't feel fear you are not brave, just foolish.

So, same thing with temptation. If you are not tempted to begin with, what's your merit? Where's your sacrifice?

The strongest the temptation and the hardest the sacrifice, the most value in not yielding to it.

I think this story does not undermine the figure of Christ, quite the opposite, it gives more meaning to his sacrifice and, by making his story more "real" instead of a biblical fantasy, by making him more human, makes him greater in the end. It's like getting the real story behind the myth, stripped off the fantasy elements.

I really believe this is a very reverential film, both in essence and in form.

After all, it comes from Schrader and Scorsese.

Well written

[jmbenesh]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

Well, it is an observation on your posting, not a "rant".

And yes, you said it didn't bother you, as I myself quoted in my posting, but you added that this was so because "it's a movie, after all", as though you were implying that you find "the idea of a tempted Christ" acceptable only as long as it is an imaginary story presented in movie form, and not a true theological or historical proposition.

Hence my "rant" on the humanization of Christ not diminishing its figure in any way, as many christian believers tend to think and take offence to, but quite the opossite in fact.

"It's a movie, after all," refers to the fact that so many people took offense to this film upon its release, and even now are questioning whether it would be good for them due to their Christian background. I didn't imply anything, I was just making a statement on the merits of what we are discussing: a movie.

I am, however, unsure what you mean by, "and not a true theological or historical proposition." Are you suggesting that this film is a theological proposition (it isn't), or just saying that to enhance your point?

EDIT: I suppose I should add my opinion/beliefs here to clear any confusion up:

The ideas presented in The Last Temptation of Christ are not a theological proposition; they are based on a work of 1950s fiction, not any of the Gospels. However, if these ideas were presented as part of a Gospel in some way, it would not surprise me nor disturb me.

As a Christian, you are taught that our God is a perfect God, and that Christ is the human representation of Him (God on Earth). But, while Christ is fully God, he is also fully Man. He walks the line between God and Christians, bringing Christians to know God. So yes, while he is divine, he also has human characteristics as well. That is what makes him so revered: He was able to resist the temptations of human life.

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by jmbenesh

"It's a movie, after all," refers to the fact that so many people took offense to this film upon its release, and even now are questioning whether it would be good for them due to their Christian background. I didn't imply anything, I was just making a statement on the merits of what we are discussing: a movie.

I am, however, unsure what you mean by, "and not a true theological or historical proposition." Are you suggesting that this film is a theological proposition (it isn't), or just saying that to enhance your point?

EDIT: I suppose I should add my opinion/beliefs here to clear any confusion up:

The ideas presented in The Last Temptation of Christ are not a theological proposition; they are based on a work of 1950s fiction, not any of the Gospels. However, if these ideas were presented as part of a Gospel in some way, it would not surprise me nor disturb me.

As a Christian, you are taught that our God is a perfect God, and that Christ is the human representation of Him (God on Earth). But, while Christ is fully God, he is also fully Man. He walks the line between God and Christians, bringing Christians to know God. So yes, while he is divine, he also has human characteristics as well. That is what makes him so revered: He was able to resist the temptations of human life.

Wow, I am afraid this is quickly turning into a religious debate, and a) I am not interested in getting into one with a person of faith, and b) I am pretty sure posting regulations here wouldn't allow it anyway, and wisely so.

I will only add that my original comment was about your approach to your christain beliefs (or at least what I perceived it to be) in regard to this movie, and not about those beliefs in themselves.

[Tom Servo]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

Wow, I am afraid this is quickly turning into a religious debate, and a) I am not interested in getting into one with a person of faith, and b) I am pretty sure posting regulations here wouldn't allow it anyway, and wisely so.

I will only add that my original comment was about your approach to your christain beliefs (or at least what I perceived it to be) in regard to this movie, and not about those beliefs in themselves.

How could it not really, considering the movie, which is meant to rile up religious debate? The reviewer himself antagonizes a few times, not getting past the first paragraph before uttering the term "Christian extremists", and later kicks it up a few notches with "Christian extremists with dangerous agendas". Sounds like another religion he's describing to me, but eh... I'm not really religious myself, but I've come to strongly respect one camp over the other, for various reasons.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

How could it not really, considering the movie, which is meant to rile up religious debate? The reviewer himself antagonizes a few times, not getting past the first paragraph before uttering the term "Christian extremists", and later kicks it up a few notches with "Christian extremists with dangerous agendas". Sounds like another religion he's describing to me, but eh... I'm not really religious myself, but I've come to strongly respect one camp over the other, for various reasons.

A few quick comments:

1. I am going to assume that you have not listened to the old audio commentary with Martin Scorsese, because I was most definitely not antagonizing. To be perfectly clear, when someone threatens with use of force to impose his/her religious beliefs, then, in my opinion, it is justified to describe this person as an "extremist". For the record, Martin Scorsese did receive death threats after the film's premiere, and this is a fact that can easily be confirmed.

2. My take on the film was not influenced by my religious beliefs. On the contrary, I commented in the review that despite them, I regard The Last Temptation of Christ as a powerful film that encourages one to think. Additionally, it is clear, to me, that the reason this film bothered a lot of people who ended up condemning it and Martin Scorsese is the fact that it offers different interpretations of specific events, which other people had already interpreted in ways that suit dangerous agendas. That's all.

Pro-B

[GxyExpress999]

Mine arrived from DeepDiscount yesterday. $14.99

[arcadeforest]

Originally Posted by GxyExpress999

Mine arrived from DeepDiscount yesterday. $14.99

Nice, I hope to have my copy on Monday or Tuesday.

[Aragorn22]

I've never liked Willem Dafoe as an actor, and I think this is his career-worst performance. Jesus with an American accent just doesn't work.

[Member-38928]

Originally Posted by Aragorn22

I've never liked Willem Dafoe as an actor, and I think this is his career-worst performance. Jesus with an American accent just doesn't work.

.....uh, nevermind.


_________________


Anyhow, I am very excited to get and watch my TLToC, as it looks like Criterion hit yet another one out of the ballbark!
Although my Paypal payment is still pending so mine still hasn't even shipped.

[Oblivion138]

Originally Posted by CinemaBlu

That's only true of BAD movies.

Amen.

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

The reviewer himself antagonizes a few times, not getting past the first paragraph before uttering the term "Christian extremists", and later kicks it up a few notches with "Christian extremists with dangerous agendas". Sounds like another religion he's describing to me, but eh...

The 1988 firebombing of a Parisian theater screening The Last Temptation of Christ certainly wasn't committed by Muslims.

Are we honestly going to debate whether or not flinging molotov cocktails into a crowded theater is a "dangerous" or "extremist" act?

[oildude]

Originally Posted by Aragorn22

I've never liked Willem Dafoe as an actor, and I think this is his career-worst performance. Jesus with an American accent just doesn't work.

Everyone has opinions about actors, and I respect yours. Mine is that William Dafoe is a damn good one.

[JamesKurtovich]

Never seen it, will have to check it out. It's "loosely" based on Jesus's life, which is a bit disappointing, but I'm sure Scorsese but a good spin on it.