Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2 4K UHD (2017)

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Cook

But its not the standard yet. There is 10 bit, 10 bit +, technicolor HDR, Dolby Vision... and not all players and tvs support it. Disney could be waiting to see whether Dolby Vision becomes the standard.

Just to clear it up for folks, Advanced HDR by Technicolor which is a feature in LG 2017 tv models is not a new HDR format. However, Technicolor does have two unique HDR formats that they will likely market to consumers under the same format name. Possibly, a future HDR format called "Technicolor HDR" could be included on a Blu-Ray disk, and we wouldn't necessarily know for sure if it was encoded using the ST 2094-30 format developed by Technicolor, or the ST 2094-20 format developed by Philips. Since they merged HDR technology and branding, when ether of those formats are eventually launched they'll have to have some type of Technicolor branding, and not Philips. I sent a message to Technicolor asking for more info about the forthcoming HDR formats, but they responded and told me they don't exist. That is obviously bunk, so I responded with the concrete proof that both of those formats do exist, and they never wrote me back.

Not only have white papers and insider company info verified the existence of both unique forthcoming HDR formats, it's even announced that the SDKs will be two for the price of one when it comes to royalty fees for content creators and manufacturers. They implied that when they (Philips and Technicolor) officially merged HDR technologies. However, technically both of those new HDR formats are HDMI 2.1 only formats and nothing has been officially announced yet. The formats have been hinted at, even noted on Philips of Europe slide in a Pocket Lint article about how they still aren't opting to include Dolby Vision support in tvs yet.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Adam_ME

Which is already here. Universal is about to release their first DV UHDs.

I feel like it's much more likely they're waiting for a larger install base, or just to see how essential the format ends up being sales wise (since all studios want to push digital). I think this "waiting for Dolby" thing has always been an easy go-to for people with Dolby in mind.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by philochs

The only thing that is murky at this point is if HDR-10+ will become the new base layer HDR format for UHD moving forward sometime next year, replacing HDR10 as the new base layer HDR format, while remaining backward compatible with static HDR tvs,

This is what I was thinking as well, but it may not work if HDR10+ cannot be a base layer for DV.

It will be interesting to see how the format performs once we get some actual content in a few months.

[Mighty Max]

Why can't this crap ever be finalized and streamlined and set as a standard before the tech becomes available.
It's almost as if they are hurting sales of equipment on purpose.

No on is going to buy a 4k tv then a hdr1010+ tv, then a technicolor 4k, then a DV tv just to keep up with how it should all have been before release!

The industry as it stands right now is just asinine!

[legends of beyond]

Originally Posted by russdornisch

Well considering that he has been gushing over the 4k HDr release in Dolby Cinema's I kinda saw this coming. I guess he has been working directly on the HDR 4k copies for theater and says it is the definitive way to watch the movie! I know I will be making the trek to one of the only Dolby Cinema's in the area.

2hr journey for me.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

The industry as it stands right now is just asinine!

By "right now", I presume you mean, "the last 40 years".

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I feel like it's much more likely they're waiting for a larger install base, or just to see how essential the format ends up being sales wise (since all studios want to push digital). I think this "waiting for Dolby" thing has always been an easy go-to for people with Dolby in mind.

If UHD sales numbers are already outpacing BD, that should be enough for them to realize that the format is viable.

[s_har]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

If UHD sales numbers are already outpacing BD, that should be enough for them to realize that the format is viable.

I only hope they don't decide 4K through digital distribution only is also viable.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by ray0414

The big question would be is it possible to have exited hdr10+ and Dolby Vision on the same disc, since they are both dynamic Metadata. If the answer is no, then it means 2 things: 1. The bda won't make hdr10+ a requirement. 2. They do make hdr10+ the new standard, which essentially kills the possibility of Dolby Vision being put on any disc moving forward from that point.

Since HDR10+ is not just a new HDR format but it's also an extension of HDR10, adding Dynamic metadata, it's meant to become the eventual successor to HDR10. It's not meant to be a premium format, so I would be very surprised if it ends up as a second layer HDR format. Nothing states that there can only be one dynamic metadata format per disk, but disks are limited to only two HDR formats maximum. There's of course a base layer and optional second layer. HDR10+ only adds about 15kpbs of extra data to a disk, which is negligible. The reason why HDR10 was the original base layer is simply due to the fact that it was the only open source HDR format at the time.

As far as what you're speculating, I'd say it's currently unconfirmed but highly likely that HDR10+ is fully backwards compatible with HDR-10. But yes, your first point is taken for granted, if HDR-10+ isn't 100% backwards compatible and thus ends up that it has to be relegated to second layer format only, then no, in that case BDA won't make it a new standard requirement, only optional second layer. However, if that were to happen then here's how that would play out. At some point in the future virtually all disks (minus those without any HDR) would be taking advantage of both the base layer and the second layer. You'd have the lion's share of disks utilizing HDR10+ as the second layer format, but we'd continue to see a proliferation of the premium royalty HDR formats from Dolby and Technicolor/Philips, on certain disks.

Technicolor actually does much of the outsourced HDR mastering for theatrical and UHD BD releases, they'll have no trouble getting studios to include their optional premium formats in certain cases. Dolby Vision is still a more premium HDR format than any 10-bit based format. It's the most premium, and it will definitely continue to thrive, even if it has to go up directly against the new open source format and forthcoming Technicolor formats. Only a 12-bit Dolby Vision encode can guarantee that a film won't suffer from even minor color banding.

So what you'll have in the worst case scenario is most disks utilizing HDR-10+ as the second layer format, but still many disks using Dolby Vision or Technicolor formats instead. Expect more studios to commit to releasing more Dolby Vision disks, not for them to ever stop. Dolby Vision is scalable, it'll still be around as an optional HDR choice when some newer disk format replaces UHD BD in 8-10 years.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

This is what I was thinking as well, but it may not work if HDR10+ cannot be a base layer for DV.

It will be interesting to see how the format performs once we get some actual content in a few months.

It'll still work if HDR-10+ cannot be the base layer for DV, but you'd just have certain disks with one format using the second layer, and others that go with another. Samsung demoed HDR10+ at NAB 2016. Compared with an HDR-10 encode you can actually see more fine details in bright sunny shots, but dark and dim shots are improved even more. Still, if they release a new encode of The Revenant using HDR-10+ it would inevitably still suffer from minor visible color banding, but if a future encode utilized Dolby Vision instead, or as well as HDR10+ then you are going to get absolutely no visible color banding. Likely, a more appealing color palate, with better skin tones and such, too.

There's always going to be an incentive for studios to release Dolby Vision disks. Look how motivated James Gunn is about the format, he speaks for a lot of industry people when he talks of his overall support for Dolby Vision in general.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by philochs

Since HDR10+ is not just a new HDR format but it's also an extension of HDR10, adding Dynamic metadata, it's meant to become the eventual successor to HDR10. It's not meant to be a premium format, so I would be very surprised if it ends up as a second layer HDR format. Nothing states that there can only be one dynamic metadata format per disk, but disks are limited to only two HDR formats maximum. There's of course a base layer and optional second layer. HDR10+ only adds about 15kpbs of extra data to a disk, which is negligible. The reason why HDR10 was the original base layer is simply due to the fact that it was the only open source HDR format at the time.

As far as what you're speculating, I'd say it's currently unconfirmed but highly likely that HDR10+ is fully backwards compatible with HDR-10. But yes, your first point is taken for granted, if HDR-10+ isn't 100% backwards compatible and thus ends up that it has to be relegated to second layer format only, then no, in that case BDA won't make it a new standard requirement, only optional second layer. However, if that were to happen then here's how that would play out. At some point in the future virtually all disks (minus those without any HDR) would be taking advantage of both the base layer and the second layer. You'd have the lion's share of disks utilizing HDR10+ as the second layer format, but we'd continue to see a proliferation of the premium royalty HDR formats from Dolby and Technicolor/Philips, on certain disks.

Technicolor actually does much of the outsourced HDR mastering for theatrical and UHD BD releases, they'll have no trouble getting studios to include their optional premium formats in certain cases. Dolby Vision is still a more premium HDR format than any 10-bit based format. It's the most premium, and it will definitely continue to thrive, even if it has to go up directly against the new open source format and forthcoming Technicolor formats. Only a 12-bit Dolby Vision encode can guarantee that a film won't suffer from even minor color banding.

So what you'll have in the worst case scenario is most disks utilizing HDR-10+ as the second layer format, but still many disks using Dolby Vision or Technicolor formats instead. Expect more studios to commit to releasing more Dolby Vision disks, not for them to ever stop. Dolby Vision is scalable, it'll still be around as an optional HDR choice when some newer disk format replaces UHD BD in 8-10 years.

Ill be surprised if there is another disc format. Whatever comes after UHD will probably digital.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by s_har

I only hope they don't decide 4K through digital distribution only is also viable.

Originally Posted by Cook

Ill be surprised if there is another disc format. Whatever comes after UHD will probably digital.

Effin tragic.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

No one is going to buy a 4k tv then a hdr10+ tv, then a technicolor 4k, then a DV tv just to keep up with how it should all have been before release!

The industry as it stands right now is just asinine!

I understand your frustration, but HDMI 2.1 will actually bring with it a lot more HDR standardization, because it adds potential support for all of the still forthcoming HDR formats that utilize dynamic metadata. Also, there is a known forthcoming 2017 revision of the HEVC codec which includes support for all of them as well. I just read that Samsung reps even told 'FlatpanelsHD' that quote:

"Samsung has told FlatpanelsHD that it may be possible to update some existing (UHD Blu-Ray) players in the market with HDR10+ but no further information has been provided to us since the comments at CES 2017."

Since all information clearly states that Samsung is working to convince the other major film studios besides Fox who are already on board, that they need to completely ditch HDR-10 and go with HDR-10+ instead, it virtually guarantees it's backwards compatibility with static meta-data tvs, even though that hasn't been formally announced yet.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Effin tragic.

Agreed...to an extent. If digital ever has the same bitrate and quality as disc formats, which isnt impossible, and if we can download digital copies onto players and watch them without the use of proprietary apps I wouldnt mind going fully digital. But until that happens disc is the superior format and it would be tragic to lose physical formats while digitalHD is still inferior.

Companies want to push digital, but they dont want to invest the money to make digitalHD meet the standards set by the superior physical formats.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Cook

Agreed...to an extent. If digital ever has the same bitrate and quality as disc formats, which isnt impossible, and if we can download digital copies onto players and watch them without the use of proprietary apps I wouldnt mind going fully digital. But until that happens disc is the superior format and it would be tragic to lose physical formats while digitalHD is still inferior.

Companies want to push digital, but they dont want to invest the money to make digitalHD meet the standards set by the superior physical formats.

Even if all that happens, I still like to physically own something. Digital stuff can always crash or be taken off a service or whatever. Digital is fine for traveling or watching something at the gym, but I don't ever want it to become the status quo and replace physical media. If CDs can still get produced these days, no reason for movies on disc to die anytime soon (if at all).

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Cook

Ill be surprised if there is another disc format. Whatever comes after UHD will probably digital.

I don't think we ever have to worry about that. If studios went digital only with a format, it would cost them a lot of profits. That would certainly cut into their bottom line. The demand for disk formats is worldwide. In many countries fiber internet isn't going to be a viable option for your average consumers, even in ten years. Disk formats don't require internet connectivity like streaming or downloading, making it a more flexible option. I can go camping with a portable 8K disk player, deep in the RMNP or anywhere.

If they went with mandatory higher-bit rate downloads, instead of mostly streaming, major studios would still rather give you an even better, more premium experience on disk. It's a tangible physical thing that people can own and collect, there will always be a consumer demand for that. It makes people happy. You won't lose it all if your hard drive suddenly crashes. Granted, in ten years the 100TB intel 3d xpoint SSD technology or whatever else is around at the time is certainly going to be a lot less prone to random self destruction. I've had many an external hard drive bite the dust, the old traditional hard drives with moving parts are not a very appealing or realistic option for people to expect to store permanent movie collections on. SSD drives aren't large enough storage for cheap enough price yet.

Even in a tricked out PC that can store and playback all those downloaded and streaming movies, people will still expect an updated disk drive for an updated disk format. It will happen, unquestionably. I think the next disk format will have optional 8K resolution, and maybe it'll always upscale to 8K
or maybe that resolution upscale won't matter as much as an even wider color gamut. Now of course native 8K disks will matter, but if we have this many upscales in the 4K era, just imagine 8K.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Even if all that happens, I still like to physically own something. Digital stuff can always crash or be taken off a service or whatever. Digital is fine for traveling or watching something at the gym, but I don't ever want it to become the status quo and replace physical media. If CDs can still get produced these days, no reason for movies on disc to die anytime soon (if at all).

Not if its downloadable and can be watched without proprietary apps. If digital ever allows that itd be no different from the way physical media works. A digital file that can be bought online, downloaded to a storage device, and can be viewed on a digital media player. The only thing different would be that you buy a digital file rather than a physical disc.

Thatd be the next logical step in digital media. But with studios being so damn paranoid about media piracy and all these proprietary apps (vudu, flixster, FandangoNow, Google etc.) it will be a while before digital formats work like physical media: universal digital files playable on any digital media player without apps. If studios and companies ever pull their heads out of their asses and do that with digital Id happily switch over.

[Geoff D]

Re: HDR10+, I don't see why people are so concerned with it becoming the mandatory HDR application. It wouldn't even have to "replace" HDR10 in the strictest sense because it's simply HDR10 with a payload of dynamic metadata that'll take up a fraction of the available bandwidth, in other words there's absolutely no reason to throw out the static metadata. Make sure to master it with both sets of data and hey presto, you've got your backwards compatibility which maintains a regular HDR10 presence on the disc as per the spec and has HDR10+ as the optional extra.

Making it the mandatory HDR would also cause issues for Dolby as I highly doubt they'll want to have a competitor's dynamic system residing on their "premium format" discs, so keeping the base layer as static only would alleviate any political concerns.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Cook

Not if its downloadable and can be watched without proprietary apps. If digital ever allows that it'd be no different from the way physical media works. A digital file that can be bought online, downloaded to a storage device, and can be viewed on a digital media player. The only thing different would be that you buy a digital file rather than a physical disc.

That'd be the next logical step in digital media. But with studios being so damn paranoid about media piracy and all these proprietary apps (vudu, flixster, FandangoNow, Google etc.) it will be a while before digital formats work like physical media: universal digital files playable on any digital media player without apps. If studios and companies ever pull their heads out of their asses and do that with digital Id happily switch over.

That's a tall order, I wouldn't hold my breath. There will 100% be a new physical media format in the future, sometime late in the 2020's. I can also guarantee that we will see a tidal wave of hack articles over the next 8-10 years telling us there won't be another disk format. Right up until it's hinted at or formally announced, some people are bound to cast doubt on the idea. Even just for the click bait and ad revenue. That already happened with Blu-Ray. Every review said 'This film could never possibly look any better than on Blu-Ray' and 'this could be the last physical disk format' back in the day. Now with 4K and HDR, obviously we all know they can in fact and typically do look even better than Blu-Ray.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Making HDR10+ the mandatory HDR would cause issues for Dolby, as I highly doubt they'll want to have a competitor's dynamic system residing on their "premium format" discs. So keeping the base layer as static only would alleviate any political concerns.

Dolby invented the HDR-10 technology. They made a lot of it open source. Samsung continued, branched out in that open source path with the help of 20th Century Fox Studios, to avoid paying royalty fees to Dolby or Technicolor. Doesn't matter what would be ideal for Dolby, the industry still progresses as a whole, and I'm sure they understand the need for a true opensource successor to the original HDR-10 format. Their stock prices and revenue are both soaring at the moment, snowballing really. Good stock to watch in 2017.

BDA would not keep the base layer static only over concern for Dolby. So I feel I'm about 99% sure in my estimation that HDR-10+ will eventually be updated as the required base layer HDR format for UHD BD. Dolby Vision was never meant to be supported on 100% of disks. Likely, all major studios will eventually support all HDR formats on disk. You'll have the HDR10+ base layer on every disk, then close to 1/2- 2/3rds of the disks will also use the second layer for either Dolby Vision, or else a Technicolor HDR format. I think eventually we'll see just as many disks coming out with Technicolor HDR as we do with Dolby Vision. There is room for all.